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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 2:04am
Originally posted by FROG MAN FROG MAN wrote:

I will never understand Americans and guns, but I got a few questions.
Do you buy hand guns as a sport/hobby to take to the range? or do you buy them for protection?

Personally, and I think this applies to a lot of owners, I buy them for both.
Quote
If you buy it for the range, what makes a gun good? Consistency? accuracy? But then why would it matter if the gun was light or small?

It all depends on what kind of target shooting you're doing. If you're shooting bench-rest, then a .22 pistol will do just fine, but if you're into other types of competition (scenario situations, field courses, etc) then other calibers/types are necessary. Light weight is almost always good for any kind of target shooting. The less weight in your hands, the less effort it takes to keep the pistol up, and on target. However, some larger calibers can be rougher on the shooter if they're fired from too light a firearm. My PA-63 is far more accurate than I'll ever be. It's light weight, inexpensive to shoot, and perfect for the size of my hands. It's a military/police weapon though, not some target pistol made only for punching holes in paper. The factors governing what is/isn't a "good range gun" are limitless and usually differ from person to person.

Quote Do you feel guns are a good idea to carry for protection?

Yes, as Merc said, when a situation arises where your life is threatened, the police won't be there in time to save you. You can't even be certain you'll be able to get to phone to call them. Never depend on someone else when your life is on the line, only depend on yourself. If you depend on others, you have no control over the situation. If you depend on yourself, you can, at the very least, even out the odds. You wouldn't go out camping without being prepared for any possible eventuality, why would you go through the rest of your life not being just as prepared for other eventualities?

As for your question about number of guns in relation to crime, the FBI's statistics have shown that while the number of firearms in private hands in the US have increase greatly over the past 20 years in the US, violent crime has steadily decreased. If more guns were to equal more crime, then the trend would be the opposite.

The British have found out that criminals will commit crimes regardless of the law. They'll find guns to use, if they can't find them, then they'll make their own (yes, it's very easy to do) or resort to edged weapons or blunt instruments which make you just as dead, and if you don't die, generally leave you far worse off than if you took a bullet and survived.

As for the Canadian gun laws. If it works for your country, great! But that doesn't mean it would work here. You have 1/10th the population of the US and 1/10 the population density as well. This means you have fewer people in much more space than we do down here. Furthermore the disparity of income is far less due to a smaller population. That means that you're going to inherently have less crime than the US, violent or otherwise.

Strict gun control =/= safety for the people. Look at Russia, they've virtually outlawed all guns. Over there, "private handgun ownership is totally prohibited. A permit is required to purchase a long gun. All guns are registered with authorities. When transporting a long gun, it must be disassembled. Long guns may only be used for self-defense when the gun owner is on his own property." Sound familiar? Yet their murder rate is a staggering 3.3% That means that if you filled a room with 1000 Russian citizens, 33 of them would be murdered by year's end. That's murder with a capital 'M' Not car accidents, not deaths in general, MURDERED. By comparison, the US with far more privately held guns, has a per-1000 rate of homicide of only 5/1000 per year and according to most of the developed world, we're a bunch of gun-toting loonies.

The fact is, you rarely ever hear about the people who successfully defended themselves from intruders and assailants with firearms because it makes a less sensational news story. You always hear about the murder victim or the innocent bystander that got shot, but you rarely ever hear about the 80 year old woman who successfully defends her home with a gun from a raging mad man who attempts to break into her house and assault her.

Do this for me. See if your local library has copies of "American Rifleman" magazine and look in the front few pages. Every issue there are tons of stories of recent situation where American men and women have defended themselves successfully with handguns, shotguns, and rifles from intruders. There would be many many more except that the articles must be submitted by readers and those are tough to come by in the news as is.

So, do Canadian gun laws work for Canada? I guess so. Would they work for the US? No.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 2:48am
Frogman, I don't live in the USA and I own firearms.I do it both as a hobby and for protection.

As a hobby it is great. There are so many aspects to it that it is actually very hard to describe to someone who doesn't "get" it.

At the very very basic level it is fun to choose which firearm to buy. It's kinda like buying a car. You have to shop around a bit to get the right one. Not every weapon feels the same, and some just click with you.

Then you can think about modifying the weapon. One of the guns I own is a 1911. Now the 1911 is a fantastic platform, and it will do everything you need from a gun right out the box. However the basic design is around 98 years old. Things have changed and there are improvements you can make to it. You can also just shell out the cash up front and buy a weapon that has been modernized already, but building it up to how you want it is a hobby in itself. I've spend about as much as I did on the original weapon on modifications to it over the years.

Then you can make your own ammo as well. This is a whole other hobby again. While it is technically siple and easy to do, once you get into it, it is like any other hobby, it takes time and money :) There are two practical advantages to making your own ammo. You can tailor the load to exactly what your weapon likes. This is especially handy with long range or extra accurate rifles. It also works with handguns, but factory ammo is mass produced, there are variations and they are made to fit "most" weapons. A well known ammo manufacturer here produces rounds that have a velocity variation of over 50 feet per second. This leads to inconsitancies in accuracy. When I make my own I often have less than 10fps difference. You can also make ammo cheaper than you can buy it.

Personally it costs me about between R2 and R10 for a single round of .45 ACP ammunition, depending on where and who I buy it from. I can make my own ammo for around R0.50 a round. So by making my own I can shoot between 4 and 20 times as much. This is both more fun, and more practice.

I shoot competatively in a sport called IDPA, International Defensive Pistol Associatoin. This is a sport that generally gets the anti's up in arms because it isn't just shooting at circular targets. You use vaguely humanoid targets, and you shoot in stages. Each stage is set up to resemble a semi plausable real world scenario, and you have to shoot it as if it was really happening, but against the clock. You shoot every day carry guns, not gun that have been heavily modified (there are other sports for that). You have to draw your weapon from under a jacket or such and shoot the targets while moving. I said semi realistic scenarios but honestly you end up doing stuff which would make a SWAT officer sweat sometimes.

But it is great fun, and shooting while moving is an extra challenge, forcing you to push your skills to the limit. Shooting is great hand eye co-ordination. It makes you work hard to get the propper result. It isn't just a case of picking up a gun and pulling the trigger. There are techniques you have to learn to be able to do it for the best result, like any other hobby. There are also so many different sports that involve shooting that you are pretty much guarenteed to find on that appeals to you. Inside every sport there are nuances that subtly change the sport to something you'd like more.

I also carry a weapon for self defence. My daily carry, and I do mean daily, is a Glock 26. This isn't because Glocks are fantastic weapons, or invisible to metal detectors or because I want to feel like James Bond. It is simply because I know there are evil people who are willing to harm me and my family and I am unwilling to let them.

One thing people always mention on the internet when you talk about protection with firearms is what happens if the badguy gets it off you. They always, ALWAYS, mention more and more improbable things to ensure the badguy attacking you has the drop on you. This can happen, but mostly people on the internet give your attacker super ninja skills that you can never counter because IRL you simply can't cover all the bases anyway.

Self defence isn't just about owning a gun. Too many people, unfortunately on the "pro" side as well think this is just the case. "I have a gun, I am safe".

NO. Firearms are tools that require training to use properly, not only on how to use them, but WHEN to use them as well. There is a whole legal as well as moral aspect to using a firearm for self defence.

In South Africa (where I live) you can only use lethal force to protect a life or to protect someone from bodily harm. You can't legally shoot someone stealing your TV. You can't legally shoot someone breaking into your car. You can't actually legally shoot someone who has broken into your house in the middle of the night. You can only shoot someone to stop someone being killed, or seriously injured.

On top of that there are some other requirements. The threat must be immediate and real. You telling me the next time you see me you're gonna kill me isn't immediate. You shouting at me from the other side of the car that you'll kill me isn't immediate. You standing down the road and yelling isn't immediate. However take a step towards me after that, or while doing that, and you just made the threat immediate. A 5 year old yelling at me that he's gonna kill me also isn't a real threat.

The threat must be illegal. You can't shoot a cop who is trying to arrest you and claim self defence. You also can't instigate it and claim self defence. I can't walk up to you and punch you, and when you punch back shoot you and claim self defence.

I must have exhausted all other options of escape. This includes running away. I'm very happy to run away. I'm GOOD at running away. However there are times and places that you simply can't do that. It also includes de escalation of the situation. Verbally trying to talk you down. Yealling at you that your mother * *@#$$@* ** #$*@#$*!@$#(@%(#^!!!!! isn't really trying to escape and will be seen as escalating the situation. It also means you have to follow the ladder of force.

Finally there must be a disparity in force. This one is a little tricky. What it basically means is you HAD to rely on lethal force because you could not match them force for force any other way. The easies example is if you are outnumbered or if you are a female being attacked by a male. Another example is if the badguy has a weapon of any sort, you are allowed to use an appropriate and reasonable ammount of force in return.

Another thing people often mention in these arguments is if you outlaw firearms, no one has them. This is patently false, and actually an incorrect argument anyway. Generally criminals, by their very nature, don't follow laws. All firearm laws do is restrict legal owners from owning firearms. Even in countries where firearms are heavily restricted, firearm crime still happens. It might be less frequent, but it does happen. But firearms don't only protect you from other firearms. They can protect you from other weapons (knives, bats, bricks...) they can also allow you to fight back when out numbered, or simply over matched. But like I said, self defence isn't about buying a gun and relaxing. It is a way of life, a lifestyle choice.

It takes dedication, training and money. And the worst (best?!) part about this, is that after all this you probably won't ever need to use it. One of the basic staples of self defence is if you look like a target you will be one. Make yourself not look like a target and you'll probably get left alone. With the right training courses you'll get taught how to observe your enviroment, how to not stand out like a target, how to minimize your risk, how to improve your chances. You'll get taught how to fight for control of your weapon, how to fight in close quaters with a weapon, how to fight effectively under stress. Decent training should also teach you the lagalities of shooting, how to behave after you've shot someone, how to treat trauma patients. You aren't always going to be there for the beginning of the event, you might need to help patch things up before the paramemdics arrive.

Dialing 911 (or your equivalent) is always on the cards, but sometimes you need to adjust things in your favour. People own fire extinguishers to help control fires before the fire brigade show up. People own first aid kits to help before the paramedics arrive. Why shold you not own a firearm to help protect yourself before the cops show up?

Honestly I have insurance on my stuff to replace it in the event of theft, I cannot replace my family. I will do everything and anything to protect them. This might require me to kill someone to do so, and I am happy with my decision.

KBK



Edited by Kayback - 11 December 2009 at 2:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 2:50am
PS , DAMN i type slowly. I started that before Tallen had posted. 40+ minutes?! Madness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 7:27am
I got a kel tec a few weeks ago.
 
Was considering the LCP, but .38 ammo is really hard to find around here. And .32 is much easier to buy (got my last box at walmart for $17.)
 
Plus the kel tec holds 8 instead of 7...
 
It also is VERY light in your pocket unlike most other guns. After about a week of constant carry, you don't even notice it anymore.
 
I like how it shoots as well, pretty accurate for a gun with about a 1 1/2 inch barrel...
 
 
Saw this on fox news last night.
 


Edited by FreeEnterprise - 11 December 2009 at 7:54am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 11:39am
A P-32, FE? Not a weapon I would have bought, but definitely a popular gun, especially as a CCW.

The LCP is a great gun, according to everyone I know who owns one.

Also, Tallen and Kayback, wall of text.  Not a bad wall of text, but still, two posts of wall-of-text was a bit much.


Edited by ParielIsBack - 11 December 2009 at 11:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 12:17pm
Yeah, actually the kel tec is the original, and has a lifetime warranty. The LCP is the copy, so says the lawsuit, I keep hearing about... Course you know how that is...
 
And the lcp was recalled for going off when dropped... and I think the warranty is only 2 years.
 
I don't drop my guns, but the guy I got mine from is buying a lcp, as he wants the .38.
 
Personally, I'm a pretty good shot, and I would feel fine protecting myself with a .22. The hole from a 32 would stop most humans, especially with hollow points...
 
My brother in law has a lcp, and we are going to a gun show tomorrow to try and buy another for my father in law...
 
 
I got my kel tec for $200...  with the pocket holster. At that price I couldn't pass it up.


Edited by FreeEnterprise - 11 December 2009 at 12:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:


Also, Tallen and Kayback, wall of text.  Not a bad wall of text, but still, two posts of wall-of-text was a bit much.


You are complaining about two long text posts on a forum? Sorry, isn't that like complaining about the sea being wet?

If your brain can only deal with bite size pieces, go Twitter.

He asked a question, and one that can't be answered in 140 characters. Deal with it.

KBK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 1:10pm
Perhaps you should be more concise.

Also, you didn't answer his question, you wrote on essay on gun ownership.  There's a difference.


Edited by ParielIsBack - 11 December 2009 at 1:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 1:24pm
Got a new muzzleloader coming this Thursday. I'm excited.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

Perhaps you should be more concise.

Also, you didn't answer his question, you wrote on essay on gun ownership.  There's a difference.

And his post contains a lot of interesting information; it's good of its own merit. Posts aren't limited to specifically and only answering a previously asked question. I think it was remarkably concise for the amount of stuff he covered.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 1:30pm
I have conflicting views on guns. I don't really like the idea of people having something that its main purpose in history has been to kill, but the prisoner's dilemma and general awesomeness I have been conditioned to associate with firearms makes me like them.

For home defense, I I think it makes sense that there is nothing better than a shotgun. For CCW, obviously, a pistol makes the most sense. What I can't wrap my mind around is the "necessity" people see in having ARs. The only practical reason to have them is to kill people as efficiently as possible; the only reasons I can see that being necessary are when the goal is to RAGE against other civilians, for an invasion, or for defense against one's (oppressive) government.

If the goal is to RAGE, then you are obviously doing something illegal. If an invasion happens, chances are their weapons will be much more effective (and in much greater supply, and more explosive) than yours, so any resistance that isn't militarily aided seems like it would be an altogether futile attempt at anything. If your government is going to come fore you, it will be one of two general ways: in the night (for an individual) or in force (for a militia/group). If at night, you're screwed because it will be a SWAT-esque secret police so "prying" anything from your "cold dead hands" probably won't happen because they will have the resources to disable/get past any devices set up to stop them or alert you, thus getting to you before you can get anything in your hands. If it is in force, again, the AR won't do much against their artillery or air-support.

I'm currently fixated with Glocks. Apparently people think they are ugly, but I think they (some, anyway) are beautifully simple-looking and effective pieces of machinery. I also really like the idea of having an AR with a red dot sight for the sake of sport/enjoyment. I'm stuck on deciding which AR to want, though. Obviously a sub-machine gun. would be fun to have too. The problem with THOSE are my desire is to have something from WWII (see: something that is extremely expensive) or my desire is strictly a result of the MW series, and thus I feel like a tool.

Also, obligatory MG42 mention for a gun thread.

I really can't think of anything cooler to have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

Perhaps you should be more concise.

Also, you didn't answer his question, you wrote on essay on gun ownership.  There's a difference.

And his post contains a lot of interesting information; it's good of its own merit. Posts aren't limited to specifically and only answering a previously asked question. I think it was remarkably concise for the amount of stuff he covered.


There's also a reasonable limit for post lengths.

I'm not saying that he's limited to answering questions.  I'm just saying that he's incorrect in claiming that was all he did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveEllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 4:21pm
Guns are one of those things that if you don't "get" you won't get it till you try it.  You never realize how difficult it is to punch paper at even 7 yards or the thrill of shooting a bullseye from 100 yards out.

That suffice?

I think its about 140 character.s
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by DaveEllis DaveEllis wrote:

Guns are one of those things that if you don't "get" you won't get it till you try it.  You never realize how difficult it is to punch paper at even 7 yards or the thrill of shooting a bullseye from 100 yards out.

That suffice?

I think its about 140 character.s


Clap

You forgot to mention the significant legal requirements and ramifications of shooting people though.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 4:56pm
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

Perhaps you should be more concise.

Also, you didn't answer his question, you wrote on essay on gun ownership.  There's a difference.

And his post contains a lot of interesting information; it's good of its own merit. Posts aren't limited to specifically and only answering a previously asked question. I think it was remarkably concise for the amount of stuff he covered.


There's also a reasonable limit for post lengths.

I'm not saying that he's limited to answering questions.  I'm just saying that he's incorrect in claiming that was all he did.


I bet you are one of those who crys about the health care bill being long too. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote merc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 4:59pm
people are going to commit crimes regardless, there are sick people out there who just want to harm you (rape/murder)...

i dont know the statistics on # of guns vs % of crime

but i do know if something happens where i come across an individual that wants to cause harm then i want a firearm on my hip (or at that point possibly in my hand)

ar15s are fun and cheaper to shoot... yes they are efficiant weapons, but isent that what you want for a defensive tool?

look at paintball again (because its something familiar to everyone on this board)

would you stand a better chance carrying a talon pump or an angle/cocker/timmy/whatever the new crap is?

is an ar15 overkill for home defense, hopefully, but when it comes down to it i would rather have to much gun than not enough...

(thinks of springfield's slogan "bring enough gun")

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by merc merc wrote:


look at paintball again (because its something familiar to everyone on this board)

would you stand a better chance carrying a talon pump or an angle/cocker/timmy/whatever the new crap is?





It depends. Am I walking around with my angel pointed at the ground when I get surprised by a man carrying a Talon pointing it in my face?

The angel isn't going to do much good in this situation. It will probably make you more likely to get shot in the face rather than surrendered.





Edited by jmac3 - 11 December 2009 at 6:05pm
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by merc merc wrote:

people are going to commit crimes regardless, there are sick people out there who just want to harm you (rape/murder)...

i dont know the statistics on # of guns vs % of crime

but i do know if something happens where i come across an individual that wants to cause harm then i want a firearm on my hip (or at that point possibly in my hand)

ar15s are fun and cheaper to shoot... yes they are efficiant weapons, but isent that what you want for a defensive tool?

look at paintball again (because its something familiar to everyone on this board)

would you stand a better chance carrying a talon pump or an angle/cocker/timmy/whatever the new crap is?

is an ar15 overkill for home defense, hopefully, but when it comes down to it i would rather have to much gun than not enough...

(thinks of springfield's slogan "bring enough gun")


Maybe not the best analogy. A .223 stands a reasonable chance of going right through your house and into a neighbouring house. Worse if you're in an apartment setting. Being aware of your backdrop is critical if a firearm is intended for personal defense. You wouldn't want to shoot a guy, and then find out the round carried on through him, through the drywall and into your kid's bedroom.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 6:22pm
My friend, lives in the city with 4 foot alleys between houses, wanted to use a Springfield 1903 for home defense.  Talk about over penetraiton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2009 at 6:25pm
Originally posted by Eville Eville wrote:

Talk about over penetraiton


Oh you know it!
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