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Deputy zaps boy, 10, with Taser

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    Posted: 05 December 2009 at 12:28pm
http://chieftain.com/articles/2009/12/03/news/local/doc4b1753ad92eca454367982.txt



Same age group. What are your thoughts on this one?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 12:32pm
Again, unless the kid is threatening you with a knife or gun, or the deputy is also 10 years old, he should not have need to use the taser and should not have used the taser.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 12:34pm
Did you even read the article?

Quote Mondragon said the boy had threatened Biby with a pipe and a stick, and had thrown a landscape timber at Biby.

Mondragon said that when deputies arrived, the boy ran away from them holding a 2-foot-long pipe.

The boy ignored a deputy's commands to drop the pipe. "I'm not going to drop the pipe," the boy is quoted as saying in a report.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 12:38pm
Yeah, I did.  A 10 year old boy with a stick?  Threat of a bruise is not the same as a threat of death.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 12:41pm
Blunt trauma kills more people every year then penetrating trauma.


A metal-pipe to the head is just as deadly as a knife to the chest.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bolt3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 12:44pm
He could have just as easily been apprehended physically by 2+ officers then.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 12:47pm
Just as easily?

So you've apprehended armed people that were backed in a corner before?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 12:49pm
Maybe when a pip is being wielded by an adult, but it wasn't.  The pipe was being wielded by a little kid.  If the pipe was big enough to even reach the cops head, then it will be too heavy for the kid to swing with sufficient speed, and the officer could have easily seen the pipe coming, and blocked/caught it.  If the pipe was too small to reach the officers head, then he still isn't in danger because it is too light to cause more than a bruise, likely to an arm or leg;  but once again, probably could have just blocked it.  If the officer is so incompetent in physically dealing with people that he cannot subdue a 10 year old kid throwing a temper tantrum without using a taser, he should not be wearing a badge.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Just as easily?

So you've apprehended armed people that were backed in a corner before?


You keep saying "armed people" like they are adults.  This wasn't an adult.  Again, it was a little boy.  If I had a dollar for every little boy with a stick I have dealt with, I would have a lot of dollars.  And for most of those, I was a little boy too, not a fully grown man. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 12:55pm
Eville, have you ever watched a little league game? Those kids can whack those balls pretty far. Imagine the feeling if it was your knee he whacked.


Plus, why do we keep going back to "If the officer could have died, he could have used the taser"? The taser isn't meant for life threatening situations. If it gets life threatening, the firearms are brought out. The taser is there for bodily harm.




But, explain something to me. What age IS appropriate to tase? Why are we using age as the determining factor if someone can harm you or not? At what age can a kid cause enough harm to you to make it justified? And while we're at it, at what age can an old person no longer hurt you?    

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 1:02pm
Kid had a two foot lead pipe and was backed into a corner. Even a ten year old can stand a good chance of doing damage with that. The kid also had a history of behavioural issues.

A kid who's kicking and screaming =/= a kid with a metal pipe. On initial impression, I think this case is far more easily justified than the last one. It's the weapon that does it for me.

Eville- I suggest you go to your local group home for screwed up kids, hand a ten year old boy a two foot pipe, and give him a strong incentive to take a swing at you with it. Then come back and tell us that he doesn't present a danger.

Cops are expected to subject themselves to some risks, but the use of force continuum is very clear. a cop is never expected to deliberately under-arm himself in confrontation with someone he's trying to apprehend. The taser was probably an appropriate solution in this case.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 1:11pm
Where did you see 2 foot lead pipe?  I could only find that in the comments.  I found 2-foot long pipe, but no mention of the material.  It could have been PVC for all we know. 

Also, I would not consider an officer to be underarmed even if he was unarmed in this situation.


Edited by Eville - 05 December 2009 at 1:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 1:16pm
I'm pretty sure an officer of the law wouldn't tase a 10 year old over a pvc pipe...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 1:26pm
Why not?   One tased a kid with no pipe at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by Eville Eville wrote:

Where did you see 2 foot lead pipe?  I could only find that in the comments.  I found 2-foot long pipe, but no mention of the material.  It could have been PVC for all we know. 

Also, I would not consider an officer to be underarmed even if he was unarmed in this situation.

Sorry, you're right. I can't find mention of the material the pipe was made of.

That said, I trust the judgement of the average police officer- bear in mind the kid had also already thrown some timber at the foster father too. He had already, therefore, shown a willingness to attempt to cause injury to another person.

Now, the situation being resolved, I don't think the appropriate response is to press charges. It's a ten year old kid with serious behavioural issues. criminalizing him with a charge is unlikely to have any positive result. The kid needs behavioural therapy and probably some other psychological attention. A criminal charge wouldn't provide this, and putting him into a juvenile facility (hypothetically- I doubt a ten year old would go to one) would simply cause him to associate with other, probably older deviant kids from whom he'll learn more antisocial behaviours.

These kids are not at all easy to deal with, and even proper treatment isn't always a success, but keeping them out of the justice system is very important if they're to be turned around. Those who do enter the justice system should, in all possible cases, be dealt with at the lowest level, preferably through pre-charge or post-charge diversion. Giving a kid a criminal record is almost never of any help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IrIsHGunNeR37 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by Eville Eville wrote:

Where did you see 2 foot lead pipe?  I could only find that in the comments.  I found 2-foot long pipe, but no mention of the material.  It could have been PVC for all we know. 

Also, I would not consider an officer to be underarmed even if he was unarmed in this situation.
Does the material really matter. If the kid gets a good enough swing, some form of bodily harm could be inflicted. Say he nails the officer in the knee before he can get a hand on the pipe and it blows out his knee or the kid cracks the officers fingers because he couldnt get a hand on it quick enough. Granted they get comp for being injured on the job. Still if the situation presents the possibility of injury to the officer it does give them the right to use a non-lethal method to subdue the person if necessary.
 
Of course after reading this article you can see how a taser could possibly be more harmful to a younger kid than a full grown adult.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Originally posted by Eville Eville wrote:

Where did you see 2 foot lead pipe?  I could only find that in the comments.  I found 2-foot long pipe, but no mention of the material.  It could have been PVC for all we know. 

Also, I would not consider an officer to be underarmed even if he was unarmed in this situation.

Sorry, you're right. I can't find mention of the material the pipe was made of.

That said, I trust the judgement of the average police officer- bear in mind the kid had also already thrown some timber at the foster father too. He had already, therefore, shown a willingness to attempt to cause injury to another person.

Now, the situation being resolved, I don't think the appropriate response is to press charges. It's a ten year old kid with serious behavioural issues. criminalizing him with a charge is unlikely to have any positive result. The kid needs behavioural therapy and probably some other psychological attention. A criminal charge wouldn't provide this, and putting him into a juvenile facility (hypothetically- I doubt a ten year old would go to one) would simply cause him to associate with other, probably older deviant kids from whom he'll learn more antisocial behaviours.

These kids are not at all easy to deal with, and even proper treatment isn't always a success, but keeping them out of the justice system is very important if they're to be turned around. Those who do enter the justice system should, in all possible cases, be dealt with at the lowest level, preferably through pre-charge or post-charge diversion. Giving a kid a criminal record is almost never of any help.


I am not question the offenders willingness to injure somebody, just his ability.  I would have to see the kid to know for sure, but I have never run into a 10 year old who I thought looked threatening at all.  Now, if it was this kid:


He would get the K9.

As for treating the kid, I agree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 1:40pm
Working under the assumption that the pipe was metal, how strong do you really think the kid would need to be to cauuse injury with the pipe? IrishGunner nailed it- think of knuckles, fingers, knees, thigns like that. Permanent injuries can easily be sustained. Even with a minor injury the cop could be off duty for weeks waiting for a hand to heal up.

Remember, you aren't just dealing with the kid's own strength, you're also talking about the leverage and mass of a (metal?) pipe.

Again, I invite you, go give a metal pipe to a behaviourally challenged ten year old and make him a 50 dollar bet he can't hurt you with it. I sure as hell wouldn't be willing to do it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 1:42pm
Eville, I'll ask you again


What age IS appropriate to tase? Why are we using age as the determining factor if someone can harm you or not? At what age can a kid cause enough harm to you to make it justified? And while we're at it, at what age can an old person no longer hurt you?    

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:


Again, I invite you, go give a metal pipe to a behaviourally challenged ten year old and make him a 50 dollar bet he can't hurt you with it. I sure as hell wouldn't be willing to do it.


Of course I wouldn't do that.  Even if the facility let me in, there isn't very much chance that the little bugger would be able to payup.  Heck, slacker can't even get 5$ together.
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