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Tical3.0 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tical3.0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 7:09am
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Oh good, this has turned into another "Christians are Dumb" thread. I was wondering how long it would take. 
3 pages down. Figured it would have happend sooner.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 10:19am
First off you are part of a group that committed to provide a set of music for the event. On that alone it is case closed, if every member of the group could pick and choose where and when they were present to play there is no group.

Second, you listen and learn and understand Sun Tzu's addage of "know thy enemy", you will have a better understanding of what now you only have as perception of.

I have played with son's band at various gigs that I personally do not approve of, but I committed to the band not the venue. Playing for 6 total hours (3 sets) at a gay bar was a interesting gig, son and band see it as only '$' and did not judge, as I did. Also played music that I am not a fan of, but again good of the group.

If you back out, that will show the depth of your charactor is as shallow as your belief system. Yes bigotted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slackerr26 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 10:21am
um he already did it? your a little late
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

First off you are part of a group that committed to provide a set of music for the event. On that alone it is case closed, if every member of the group could pick and choose where and when they were present to play there is no group.



He and his group agreed to play for an even that was not supposed to be a religious service.  They did not agree to play for an event that was a religious service.  The event they agreed to to and the event they went to were two different events, so he was not obligated to go.  The group and the church had a deal, the church changed their end, the group is no longer committed to it. 

That being said, I think that refusing to play music for a group based on their religion would have been childish and would only have served to deny the group a chance to practice together in front of an audience. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by mbro mbro wrote:

Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

We don't kill animals.
Why is that better than what their god desires?


Who's god?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by Eville Eville wrote:

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

First off you are part of a group that committed to provide a set of music for the event. On that alone it is case closed, if every member of the group could pick and choose where and when they were present to play there is no group.



He and his group agreed to play for an even that was not supposed to be a religious service.  They did not agree to play for an event that was a religious service.  The event they agreed to to and the event they went to were two different events, so he was not obligated to go.  The group and the church had a deal, the church changed their end, the group is no longer committed to it. 

That being said, I think that refusing to play music for a group based on their religion would have been childish and would only have served to deny the group a chance to practice together in front of an audience. 


The religion issue is significant because it's the justification for many people that were in attendance to say hateful things toward the non religious. I didn't just support a religious ritual, I supported people who have said to my face and through other interactions that I am evil/don't belong/etc. I knew they would be there. Is it bigoted of me to be opposed to serving these people?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 1:28pm
No, but it would be a good opportunity to show them up and possibly ruin the service for them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 5:12pm
Or kick them in the face.

Coming from someone who is religious, both sides of the argument are stupid.  The problem, from my point of view, is not that you had to go to a religious service (although it may be in your's, Tolgak) but that the director lied to you.  Once he's broken his word, there's no reason for you to do things you dislike.

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

First off you are part of a group that committed to provide a set of music for the event. On that alone it is case closed, if every member of the group could pick and choose where and when they were present to play there is no group.

Second, you listen and learn and understand Sun Tzu's addage of "know thy enemy", you will have a better understanding of what now you only have as perception of.

I have played with son's band at various gigs that I personally do not approve of, but I committed to the band not the venue. Playing for 6 total hours (3 sets) at a gay bar was a interesting gig, son and band see it as only '$' and did not judge, as I did. Also played music that I am not a fan of, but again good of the group.

If you back out, that will show the depth of your charactor is as shallow as your belief system. Yes bigotted.


Bull poop.

No one's required to interact with people who aren't treating them fairly, and not attending a church service because you made clear you don't want to is absolutely reasonable.

If he had chosen to do anything the group wanted, and not made clear his intentions, it would be a different story.  But he did, so your line of reasoning doesn't make sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:

 
The religion issue is significant because it's the justification for many people that were in attendance to say hateful things toward the non religious. I didn't just support a religious ritual, I supported people who have said to my face and through other interactions that I am evil/don't belong/etc. I knew they would be there. Is it bigoted of me to be opposed to serving these people?

/facepalm

You do realize that this butthurt mentality of "they all are saying mean things about me!" is common to both Atheists and Religious individuals?  That there are some Christians who would refuse to support some group they associated with Atheism because they think these people are all saying mean things about them?  You do see how silly and childish both sides are here, right?  Because the majority of Religious and Atheist people don't actually spend most of their time planning the Final Solution to the other group?

I've had some strict Christian friends tell me that atheists attack and mock their beliefs, so they don't like atheists.  I've had some atheist friends tell me that Christians attack and mock their lack of belief, so they don't like Christians.  The majority of Christians and Atheists don't give a good God damn what the other side believes in, or doesn't believe in, and very few would judge.   Sure there are some nuts on both sides who DO care, but they don't actually speak for all people with similar views.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 6:55pm
So he should show up to their services even though their morals are clearly wrong, because there are actually decent people out there?

I think not.  If he feels that their community has treated him unfairly, it's more than reasonable for him not to participate.

That said, I agree that he shouldn't judge a group based on the actions of a few members.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2009 at 8:35pm
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

So he should show up to their services even though their morals are clearly wrong, because there are actually decent people out there?

I think not.  If he feels that their community has treated him unfairly, it's more than reasonable for him not to participate.

That said, I agree that he shouldn't judge a group based on the actions of a few members.


Thank you. That was the point I was trying to make.

To put the situation more clearly.

Background:
1) The orchestra is a school club. It's not a paid organization. It has no obligations to any organizations until a venue is agreed upon.
2) I set my terms of participation in the group and they were accepted by the group and adopted by a few other members. The people that request us are informed of the nature of this agreement.
3) I set my terms of participation in the "concert," which were accepted by the group.
4) The group was lied to, even though I made an effort to learn what type of performance it would be.
5) We found out the nature of the performance the morning of.
6) The service was run by a few people who take their beliefs far enough that I clearly wouldn't be welcome there had any of them found out what mine were.
7) People who know of who I am and have similar beliefs as those in point #4 were in attendance.
8) The ritual is part of a belief system that has been highly influential in the development of their opinions.
9) I'm the lead Trumpet of the orchestra, and the other trumpets would not have the time to prepare to cover my part on such short notice.
10) The orchestra is new and its reputation could have been significantly affected by the performance.
11) The majority of people in this school would have had similar responses to FE, oldsoldier, Darur, etc (no understanding of my perspective). Raising a big stink over the issue would raise enough hell to affect my future (the aviation industry is super conservative).

Action: I chose to perform.

Results:
1) Music performed as planned.
2) Members with beliefs similar to mine also voice objections to performance.
3) Policy modified.
4) Insult toward non-believers expressed in comments before closing prayer by one of the event organizers.
5) Plans for night ruined (event was promised to be less than 1/2 the length we were initially told).

So I lost some dignity that night. That's something I believe is worth fighting for. I'm not letting this happen to me again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2009 at 12:52am
Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

So he should show up to their services even though their morals are clearly wrong, because there are actually decent people out there?

I skipped the rest after that sentence

Tolga -
Actually, the "stink" I'm raising has nothing at all to do with you performing or not. That's entirely your choice, and given the circumstances I wouldn't blame you for not wanting to perform.  The manager lied and you found yourself doing something you weren't comfortable with for no pay. Kudos to you for sucking it up and doing it anyway, not backing out on the rest of your group.

What I don't like is the fact that you seem to have lumped together all religious folk as a party of intolerant, ignorant, and mean-spirited individuals .  Perhaps this group was just that, but from the details you gave it sounded like you were upset because you had to go perform for some group of religious people and you weren't alright with it because all religious people are out to get you.  That struck me as very ignorant on your part.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 December 2009 at 10:19am
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

What I don't like is the fact that you seem to have lumped together all religious folk as a party of intolerant, ignorant, and mean-spirited individuals .  Perhaps this group was just that, but from the details you gave it sounded like you were upset because you had to go perform for some group of religious people and you weren't alright with it because all religious people are out to get you.  That struck me as very ignorant on your part.


I keep trying to say this about my beliefs and my school.

1) I don't care to support religious rituals no matter how involved of a ritual it is. It doesn't matter to me if it's a pre-meal prayer or a full reinactment of the crucifixion. I want nothing to do with them, and will not participate in them or support them unless I get something out of it.

Why? I'm not religious and I don't believe in any of it. I don't see it right to lie by pretending I have any meaningful involvement in what they do. I will usually stand aside and let the group do its thing. If they ask me to be involved, I make it breif that I do not want to and I back out. When people begin to oblige me, that's when I start getting defensive.

The only grouping I'm doing is religious vs. non. I have said in this thread that I oppose the ritual because it's part of a belief system that does bring out the nasty side of many people. That's correct. I don't like Christianity or any other religion for that matter. But I haven't pointed out the entire group.

2) My school is composed of super-conservative people. Except for about 5 people, most people who I've had a conversation about religion with have professed not only very strong religious views, but political ones as well. Many of these people see fit to judge you on those views. I've sat through class periods where a mention of politics or climate sparked an explosion of people yelling about the topic, trying to make the professor agree with their views.

We have a class called University 101, which you take your first semester. It's a once a week deal where the professor explains college life and teaches students what they should be careful for and how to adapt to the change in culture. The teacher had a lesson on religious diversity, and a few kids went on a rant about Jesus being the savior and how those who don't believe are sinners and so on and so forth. I've heard the same people and others go on like that in other classes before. The people from that class also appeared that night.

A more recent example. The professor I had for Climatology is a well renowned scientist who had to explain to a student why the scientific community uses BCE and CE instead of BC and AD (it appeared in a chart he showed us). The class essentially went *KABOOM!!!* The same happened on a mention of Islam in a humanities class and the mention of politics in Flight Safety and climate change in any of my meteorology classes. Even some of my professors bring up these topics when they have no relevance to what we're learning.

So if I grouped all of you under one umbrella, I'm sorry. I don't believe that all religious folk are the same. The demographics of my school include a high percentage of very religious and very political people. I know many such people and I know what they believe and express about people unlike them. I knew they would be there that night and it was true that they were.
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