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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 4:34pm
I don't have a problem with gay's...
 
If I give my word, I keep it.
Do I think a gay lifestyle is wrong, yes, but I do stuff that is wrong too.
 
I've done tons of stuff in my life that I didn't "feel" like doing, because it was good for my career/hobby/experience.
 
You gave your word. Its just two hours...
 
Besides, you might enjoy it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ceesman762 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 4:36pm
Tolgak, look at it as a lesson so that you don't get into an "uncomfortable" performance.  Support the orchestra, do it for them.

Edited by Ceesman762 - 03 December 2009 at 4:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 5:01pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

I don't have a problem with gay's...
 
If I give my word, I keep it.
Do I think a gay lifestyle is wrong, yes, but I do stuff that is wrong too.
 
I've done tons of stuff in my life that I didn't "feel" like doing, because it was good for my career/hobby/experience.
 
You gave your word. Its just two hours...
 
Besides, you might enjoy it.


Except he gave his word with a specific corollary, that he not have to play at events like these.

I think you should still go, for all the reasons you listed.  But I think you should also make it very clear to the director that you cannot trust them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yomillio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:

Originally posted by Yomillio Yomillio wrote:

Dude, if you wanna play, go play and enjoy yourself.  Who cares about the setting, you'll still have a good time playing.

I get that you wouldn't do it had you known about it, and thats fine.  I say just go for it.

I just think this isn't the time to make some sort of stand, nevermind the fact that you'll end up having a good time.


Actually, I don't enjoy playing this music. It's boring and simple and not at all challenging (except Hallelujah, I quite like that one). I'll have a good time if I can manage to keep up a conversation with the group around me, but there are no guarantees.

As I said earlier in this thread, I'm going. The only reason is to support the orchestra. That is all.


Thats all the reason you need.

And yeah, oversight on my part for not processing the whole 'church music' thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:



As far as tolerance goes, I don't have to tolerate rituals or beliefs.


Don't you rip on Christians for exactly this?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 5:17pm
FE, you don't have a problem with gay people but think a gay lifestyle is wrong? How does that even begin to make sense in your messed up brain?

Edited by jmac3 - 03 December 2009 at 5:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ammolord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 5:21pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

FE, you don't have a problem with gay people but think a gay lifestyle is wrong? How does that even begin to make sense in your messed up brain?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 5:25pm
You promsied attendance base on misrepresentation. You were told it would not be of a religious nature, and were misled. IUt is, and you feel qualms about that.

Yes, you said you would go- but you said you would go based on the information you were given.

Now you have conflicting values. I don't see having given your word coming into play, since that's based on honesty in both directions, and you were lied to. Not your fault. However now you face a conflict of partaking in something that runs contrary to your own beliefs (or lack thereof), and the fact that other people are relying on you and that people will judge you anyway if you don't.

I don't think anyone would have the right to judge you if you chose not to go based on what you've said, but you should go with whatever's most ethically comfortable to you.

I personally would feel no compunction about letting down someone who had lied to me, but I don't think I'd be able to walk out on a bunch of friends like that. I'd do it, then raise hell with whoever lied to me about it. I certainly would not partake in prayer or the like- and I wouldn't be bowing my head, clasping hands or any such thing that might lead people to think I was. If people were uncomfortable with my presence as a result, so be it.

You were recruited to go play music, so play music- but don't let them guilt you into partaking in anything you don't feel comfortable with.

Lesson learned, I guess. Raw deal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 5:45pm
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:



As far as tolerance goes, I don't have to tolerate rituals or beliefs.


Don't you rip on Christians for exactly this?


As I've said before, I'll let people believe what they want to believe so long as they do not push their beliefs on other people. I doesn't matter to me if someone wishes ill against a demographic. It begins to matter when that person uses his influence on the lives of others to act on those beliefs.


Bri: my initial preference was to do exactly as you said. But I value my commitment to the orchestra quite well, and have put in a considerable investment in time and money to get playing again. I certainly will take no part in anything other than music.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 5:53pm
Being tolerant of something does not require one to be a participant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 6:11pm
Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:

Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:



As far as tolerance goes, I don't have to tolerate rituals or beliefs.


Don't you rip on Christians for exactly this?


As I've said before, I'll let people believe what they want to believe so long as they do not push their beliefs on other people. I doesn't matter to me if someone wishes ill against a demographic. It begins to matter when that person uses his influence on the lives of others to act on those beliefs.


Bri: my initial preference was to do exactly as you said. But I value my commitment to the orchestra quite well, and have put in a considerable investment in time and money to get playing again. I certainly will take no part in anything other than music.

You might have misread me- my recommendation was to attend out of respect for your peers whoa re relying on you, not out of any sense of commitment to the people who misled you. If nothing else, it's a practice concert.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:

Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:



As far as tolerance goes, I don't have to tolerate rituals or beliefs.


Don't you rip on Christians for exactly this?


As I've said before, I'll let people believe what they want to believe so long as they do not push their beliefs on other people. I doesn't matter to me if someone wishes ill against a demographic. It begins to matter when that person uses his influence on the lives of others to act on those beliefs.


Bri: my initial preference was to do exactly as you said. But I value my commitment to the orchestra quite well, and have put in a considerable investment in time and money to get playing again. I certainly will take no part in anything other than music.

You might have misread me- my recommendation was to attend out of respect for your peers whoa re relying on you, not out of any sense of commitment to the people who misled you. If nothing else, it's a practice concert.


And you may have misread me, because I just said exactly the same thing.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 6:17pm
Sorry- the way you said 'but I value my music' led me to think that you interpreted my reccommendation as not to go.

On another note, Who's on first?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gator Taco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by High Voltage High Voltage wrote:

A gig is a gig, Tolga. Play this one and hopefully you guys will get more in the future. Also, have some good laughs while you're playing the mass.

Agreed.

Have a chuckle at their mass and play the gig. You'll be glad you did. It's only two hours.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 6:25pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Sorry- the way you said 'but I value my music' led me to think that you interpreted my reccommendation as not to go.

On another note, Who's on first?


The fat bastard that lied to us with an opening prayer.

We play throughout the entire thing, including the closing bit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yomillio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 6:37pm
Originally posted by ammolord ammolord wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

FE, you don't have a problem with gay people but think a gay lifestyle is wrong? How does that even begin to make sense in your messed up brain?


I would assume FE thinks along the line that he doesn't want to infringe on other's rights or make a poor opinion of someone, although he does believe it is wrong.

Pretty similar on my thoughts on abortion - my moral standards say it is wrong unless rape or similar is involved (and adoption is of course an option for this anyways - trying to steer this away from an abortion argument), but I still believe the decision itself should be left up to one's own moral standards.

Just because one thinks something is wrong, doesn't mean that they have to take issue with it in every instance, especially with something like homosexuality.


Edited by Yomillio - 03 December 2009 at 6:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:


On another note, Who's on first?


Naturally.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 7:59pm
Just treat it as a learning experience.

I've been to plenty of religious ceremonies, from Catholic to Buddhist to Mormon to Pagan, which have nothing to do with my beliefs, many of which I disagreed with personally, but I went and I was respectful and open-minded because there were people there who truly believed in what was being practiced.  No one's going to be forcing you to accept Jesus, or rounding up heathens to burn.

Tolerance isn't just for the people being tolerated, its for the person who is doing the tolerating.  If you let yourself get so worked up and hurt over people worshiping in a way you disagree, you're only hurting yourself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickman98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 8:08pm
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

Just treat it as a learning experience.

I've been to plenty of religious ceremonies, from Catholic to Buddhist to Mormon to Pagan, which have nothing to do with my beliefs, many of which I disagreed with personally, but I went and I was respectful and open-minded because there were people there who truly believed in what was being practiced.  No one's going to be forcing you to accept Jesus, or rounding up heathens to burn.

Tolerance isn't just for the people being tolerated, its for the person who is doing the tolerating.  If you let yourself get so worked up and hurt over people worshiping in a way you disagree, you're only hurting yourself.
just tell that to the natives or any other groups of people who have been rounded up by people who have different belifes and greater power to exercise them. hope the concert dosnt kill ya Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 December 2009 at 9:07pm
It's over. It bored the hell out of me and lost me an opportunity for a good night.

Did I learn anything? Yea, bring entertainment next time.

Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

Tolerance isn't just for the people being tolerated, its for the person who is doing the tolerating.  If you let yourself get so worked up and hurt over people worshiping in a way you disagree, you're only hurting yourself.


Again, my issue is that I was given an acceptable expectation for the performance, and it turned out to be a ritual I wished no involvement in. I was forced into it under false pretenses. I've stated it plenty of times and will say so again, I don't care who or what people worship, I don't want to be forced to listen to or support their rituals. Today I was forced to do both.

Anyway. The issue is now resolved, and a few of us in the orchestra made it clear to the founder that he should screen suspect performances and tell us the reason behind them before asking for our commitment.
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