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C'mon, supporters of liberal tazer use.

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Kayback View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2009 at 6:30pm
Sorry about that all. I was still typing and the enter posted it before I was finished.

Originally posted by Ben Grimm Ben Grimm wrote:

[/quote]


Jeez I can't get of the ignorance and pettyness of your post. Seriously. Did you read it before you hit "send"?

Look at what you are saying quick.

Quote Police officers are generally not supposed to go around inflicting massive pain (however convenient it might be) upon random people, children or adults.


How was someone who was being violent and had already assaulted him "random people" ?

Quote And "safest?" How do you figure? ... there are still deaths every year from tasers. ... she might get some bruises being restrained, and theoretically even a broken arm, but I am pretty sure she wasn't going to die from it.


Sweet Jesus on the Cross. Bruises and broken arms are ok with you, but you aren't allowed to inflict temporary pain on random people. Argue with yourself much?

Bruises and broken arms are way more serious damage than a Tazer would be, and also be way more psychologically damaging. Add to that if you want to, people also die from broken bones. It is infrequent, but it happens. What if it isn't an arm that gets broken? What if it is her ribs, and they puncture a lung? What if is her neck and she's paralysed? What if is her neck and she dies? No no, those will be fine, because they are only "theoretically" going to be broken.

Quote
"Quickest" in and of itself is not particularly relevant. The quickest way to end a hostage situation is to send in the SWAT team, but we usually spend a few hours negotiating anyway.


So you admit that my adding quick and safe is pertenent, yet you pick appart quick, happily discarding safe?

One reason SWAT don't settle every hostage situation as they arrive is because it ISN'T SAFE. Gee, lookit that. I wonder why I added quick AND safe? SWAT is a life saving organization. They are meant to protect the lives of hostages AND suspects. They have to take the suspects safety into consideration as well. To be quick and safe you do negotiations. Once they fail, there is a sliding scale of acceptability in the trade off between "safe" and "quick".

But this wasn't a hostage situation, and he wasn't SWAT.

The kid was being violent. You need to stop that, suprisingly, quickly and safely. Given the remote possibiliy of death from the Tazer, and the speed at which they work, the best tool he had for safe, and quick, restraint was the Tazser.

So he used it.

When 5 extra minutes involves people kicking you in the balls, it can be that much too long.

And you DO seem to be missing the most important point of this entire topic. In fact of Tazer use in general.
Quote
where a cop thinks it is ok to taser a child, just to avoid restraining her physically


THIS IS THE WHOLE CONCEPT BEHIND TAZERS

They are MEANT to be used instead of using your hands or batton. Both of those are barbaric and degrading to the cop and to the person being restraind. They are also more dangerous for both parties concerned.

This has been my point all along. You are ignorant of the propper use of a Tazer. If you want to contribute properly, get informed. If you don't like the policy that governs their use, CHANGE THE POLICY. Don't crucify some cop because he didn't do whatever it is you think he should have done. He doesn't live in your utopia. He lives in the real world. Get out of cyperspace, start campaigning. Policy isn't going to change because you shout about it on the internet.

KBK

Edited by Kayback - 25 November 2009 at 6:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TinMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2009 at 6:47pm
I have to wonder what the direction of this thread would be if the headline read:
Mother calls police...blah blah... 10 year old girls shoulder dislocated by officer
while being restrained.....
 
Brutality? Maybe he should have used a less physical means, maybe.... a quick stun?
 
When someone says she was tased, it causes me to imagine wired darts shot into her body
followed by a 50,000 volt 2 second shock. Those fish hook darts then needing to be removed.
If that were the case my position would be different.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2009 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by Ben Grimm Ben Grimm wrote:

[
And "safest?"  How do you figure?  Granted that a taser isn't a firearm, but there are still deaths every year from tasers.


There are more deaths every year from broken bones than from tasers.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2009 at 6:57pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by Ben Grimm Ben Grimm wrote:

[
And "safest?"  How do you figure?  Granted that a taser isn't a firearm, but there are still deaths every year from tasers.


There are more deaths every year from broken bones than from tasers.



I am sure that number includes all broken bones. Not ones broken by police officers.


Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2009 at 7:00pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:


Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by Ben Grimm Ben Grimm wrote:

[
And "safest?"  How do you figure?  Granted that a taser isn't a firearm, but there are still deaths every year from tasers.


There are more deaths every year from broken bones than from tasers.

I am sure that number includes all broken bones. Not ones broken by police officers.



And you think police are the only ones using Tasers?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2009 at 7:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2009 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:


Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by Ben Grimm Ben Grimm wrote:

[
And "safest?"  How do you figure?  Granted that a taser isn't a firearm, but there are still deaths every year from tasers.


There are more deaths every year from broken bones than from tasers.

I am sure that number includes all broken bones. Not ones broken by police officers.



And you think police are the only ones using Tasers?

Please, find and provide support for ANY other non-law-enforcement agency that uses Tasers regularly enough to be of any statistical relevance or significance.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveEllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2009 at 7:25pm
Only thing I could think of is taser use in correctional facilities.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2009 at 8:17pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:


Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:


Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by Ben Grimm Ben Grimm wrote:

[
And "safest?"  How do you figure?  Granted that a taser isn't a firearm, but there are still deaths every year from tasers.


There are more deaths every year from broken bones than from tasers.

I am sure that number includes all broken bones. Not ones broken by police officers.



And you think police are the only ones using Tasers?

Please, find and provide support for ANY other non-law-enforcement agency that uses Tasers regularly enough to be of any statistical relevance or significance.


This. Dig your hole Linus.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2009 at 8:49pm
Linus isn't digging a hole, he is simply stating that he feels it is premature to rush to judgment without all the facts.  A position most of the other forumers on here would appreciate if it was anyone else.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2009 at 8:50pm
Where is the fun in agreeing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2009 at 8:50pm
Good point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2009 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Linus isn't digging a hole, he is simply stating that he feels it is premature to rush to judgment without all the facts.  A position most of the other forumers on here would appreciate if it was anyone else.


I mean that he's trying to say that the numbers from taser deaths/ injuries will be as tainted by civilian use as broken bones would be.

There are far more people breaking their own bones than there are shocking each other with tasers. I was agreeing with Brihards question.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2009 at 2:21am
Originally posted by Eville Eville wrote:

Where is the fun in agreeing?


Ah, the crux of the issue.

Also, armed response companies use Tazsers as well. They aren't technically a law enforcement agency.

But that is rather besides the point. People die from broken bones. This means breaking their bones should be avoided. That's the argument for avoiding Tazer use

KBK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2009 at 2:40am
No. The argument against taser use is it is cruel to use on a 10 year old throwing a fit.

Yes a bone may be broken, and yes people die from broken bones(lol lol), but it still makes much more sense to just restrain a child without using a taser shock.
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ben Grimm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2009 at 4:34am
Originally posted by Kayback Kayback wrote:


Jeez I can't get of the ignorance and pettyness of your post. Seriously. Did you read it before you hit "send"?
 
You know, Kayback, except for this part, I pretty much agreed with your entire post - with one giant qualification:  WHEN APPLIED TO ADULTS.
 
I know this has been said, but this was a CHILD.  All the rules change when it is a child.  Some guy comes up and kicks me in the fellas, it's go time.  Some kid comes up and does a little ball tapping, I am looking for his mother.  You simply cannot apply the same rules of engagement to children as you do to adults.
 
I think maybe you spent too much time off playing mercenary, and have forgotten that you don't get to apply violence to children in polite society, just because they happen to be unruly.
 
But since my views are clearly not persuasive, allow me instead to offer the views and experiences of some very good friends of mine.  These are the godparents of my children (and vice versa) - we know each other well enough not to pull punches.
 
My friend was recently a police officer (just left to join a federal agency) in a small town, where he was the unarmed combat and weapon retention training officer for his department and several neighboring departments.  He is my standard "check this out" goto for all things police related.  As you might imagine, he usually takes a "wait for the facts" position on the various police brutality and taser questions - and correctly so.
 
He took one look at this story, and it took him all of three seconds to declare this cop WAY out of line.  In fact, most of the opinions I have posted in this thread are his, not mine (the part where the cop ought to lose his job and go to prison is all me, though).  This is a small-town cop.  He deals with rowdy kids, rowdy teenagers, rowdy drunks, rowdy everybody.  Lots of domestic disputes, much like the one in the story.  And he was horrified that this cop tasered the kid.  Sure, the policy "permits" it, but - and I quote - "It's a freaking kid!" (ok, I paraphrased it).
 
Now, let's look at his wife.  She is a psychologist, and skinny as a rail, clocking in at about 100 pounds.  In her prior job, she worked at a mental institution-slash-detention facility for violent and mentally ill utes, ranging from 8-13ish years in age.  Her "patients" were kids who were so physically out of control that their own parents had them locked up. 
 
As you might imagine, she had "physical interaction" with the kids on a semi-regular basis, and restraining violent 10-year-olds was a big part of her job.  Did she ever taser the kids?  No, because she didn't have a taser.  Or a baton, or pepper-spray, or anything else of the kind.  She was expressly prohibited from using any weapon or even striking the kids at all.  Restraining only, no matter how many times they kicked her where the jimmy would have been.  And yes, she did frequently come back from work with bruises and scratches.  Nevertheless, she managed to restrain the kids without hurting them or zapping them.
 
There were large manly orderlies around, but they also were unarmed, and with the same strict instructions - no punching or kicking under any circumstances.
 
This may seem pretty obvious - but now let's imagine the reaction if instead the shrinks were issued tasers, with permission to fire upon the kids when they got unruly?  I cannot even begin to wrap my head around the lawsuits that would cause. 
 
The same facility for adult patients?  Taser away, I say.  But not with the kids.  Why the different approach?  Simple:
 
Because THEY ARE CHILDREN, and YOU DO NOT TASER CHILDREN.  You do not apply the same standards to children.  They are not terrorists or criminals that you can terminate just because it is "within policy."  I don't care how many times the kid kicks you in the noodle.  It is still a child.
 
Throughout your entire post you refer to tasering "persons" and "people" - well, this wasn't just a "person" - it was a CHILD.  The "person" rules do not apply.  This is where you are missing the boat.  I have no problem with tasering adults under a variety of circumstances.  But the rules are different for kids.
 
 
It's Clobberin' Time!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frozen Balls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2009 at 4:42am
According to this source, 300 people have been killed by police taser use in the USA and Canada, as of 2007.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5632116,00.html

This source shows 367 deaths as of 2008.

http://judycarlin.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/grim-statistics-taser-death-toll/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frozen Balls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2009 at 4:46am
Originally posted by Ben Grimm Ben Grimm wrote:

I know this has been said, but this was a CHILD.  All the rules change when it is a child.  Some guy comes up and kicks me in the fellas, it's go time.  Some kid comes up and does a little ball tapping, I am looking for his mother.  You simply cannot apply the same rules of engagement to children as you do to adults.


Originally posted by Frozen Balls Frozen Balls wrote:

If you honestly think that a 10 year old girl poses a threat to your or others' safety, you are pathetic.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2009 at 8:07am
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

There are far more people breaking their own bones than there are shocking each other with tasers. I was agreeing with Brihards question.


This put me in mind of an incident from early in my career.  I won't go into details other than it involved a taser*, alcohol and bored AF security personnel.

*Available because of training that was conducted earlier in the day.


Edited by Mack - 26 November 2009 at 9:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormyKnight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2009 at 9:53am
Originally posted by Frozen Balls Frozen Balls wrote:

If you honestly think that a 10 year old girl poses a threat to your or others' safety, you are pathetic.
What is pathetic is the broad judgement just about everyone has heaped on that cop when nobody really knows for sure the total circumstances.  A 10 year old girl is capable of doing quite a bit of damage.  The officer from what I can tell used the least amount of force to bring the situation under control.  He took a shot to the 'nads.  What would have been next?  Biting and scratching?  Sorry, no way I'd deal with a chunk of meat taken out of my arm trying to physically restrain somebody.
 
Now, if this story read that the cop actually hurt this girl (broken arms/ribs, etc.) you'd all be in an uproar about how this cop didn't use a less damaging alternative to subdue her.
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