Tippmann Pneumatics Inc. Homepage
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Why do conservatives ignore Jesus?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 8>
Author
FreeEnterprise View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Not a card-carrying member of the DNC

Joined: 14 October 2008
Location: Trails Of Doom
Status: Offline
Points: 4785
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 12:24pm
Why do people like to cast stones?... It's in our nature.
 
As a human, we compare and contrast everything in our lives. If the Jones next door have a better car we think about it. If we think the Jones house is better we think about it. ect, ect.
 
It's part of human nature, no matter if your a "Christian" or not.
 
Just like people that are Christians get divorced. It happens, doesn't make it right... but, that kind of thing happens.
 
I don't agree with your statement "The fact of the matter is that Jesus taught us that the kingdom of Heaven would only come when people treated each other as they wished to be treated. THIS is the ONLY WAY in which the kingdom of Heaven will be established on the Earth."
 
Many people much smarter than me have argued the different aspects of this discussion for centuries. In my youth I attended many theological discussions on the different beliefs in Christianity about this. And personally, I wouldn't make a blanket statement like that.
 
I think that after Jesus returns and the new kingdom takes over, that sin will be gone from the earth, and if that is what you are referring to, then I understand, but I certainly don't believe we will get there on our own. Jesus will have to return and the things in revelation have to happen before all that happens.
 
And most will die during those times.
 
 
My point in posting the sins in the old testament were to point out that many of the "sins" in the old testament are still sins today. They didn't change when Jesus came to earth.
 
Thou shalt put no other gods before me still stands...
They tremble at my name...
Back to Top
Ben Grimm View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2009
Location: Awesome
Status: Offline
Points: 141
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ben Grimm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

...My point in posting the sins in the old testament were to point out that many of the "sins" in the old testament are still sins today. They didn't change when Jesus came to earth. .
 
And which OT sins exactly stand today?  There are so many - how am I to know?
 
It's Clobberin' Time!
Back to Top
oldsoldier View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member

Frequent target of infantile obsessives

Joined: 10 June 2002
Status: Offline
Points: 6544
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 12:53pm
Religion has been the foundation of culture, civilization and law since man crawled from the caves, and formed into social groupings. A comman belief system ruled and controled society, and became the foundation of many cultures base laws. In the middle east where food storage is an issue, those who consumned pork not properly stored or prepared quickly died a painfull death from tricanosis(sp), so in order to create a safer food supply the consumption of pork based on a religious edict was prohibited. The Imans preached it as a sin, and the word spread till it became a 'law' within the culture. That simple solution to a middle age health issue continues within the cultures of the mid-east today.

The "Church" has always made benifit of thier position within any culture. The "Pope" ran Europe in the middle ages and the Kings and Queens were appointed based on his whims, and how much was contributed to the Church. Even in Shinto, Japan placed the Monks on a pedistal within thier culture, and the Emporer must pay homeage to the Monks for guidance. The Monks and the Temples were then funded to excess by the Emporer as tradition required.

Civilization as we know it would not be as we know it if it was not for the rules that religion placed on the populace long before the true man made "rule of law" applied to cultures. The Church of the society acted as Judge, Jury and yes executioner if and when the rules of the Church and the Culture were violated.

As man turned to a secular rule of law, the line between Church and State became blurred or was eliminated all together. France during the Revolution tried the Catholic Church as well as the aristocray, replacing established law based on Catholic belief to a random set of man made laws that varied by location and individuals in charge throughout France. In 1921 The Soviet Union outlawed the Russian Orthodox Church, and when Stalin took maters into his hands a few years later, replaced the Church with the Commisariate, and God with himself, and re-wrote the laws of the entire Russian culture to fit his needs. Hitler challenged the Catholic as well as Protastant Church, replacing all belief and Law to that of National Socialism and Himself. China from 1949-1968 outlawed any and all religion except for communist ideals, replacing the Bible and Chinese religious cultures with the Red Book of Mao.

Equating the Church to Wealth is not a new concept, as we are told not to equate Government with Wealth, where over 40% of those in Congress are millionaires, and the rest pretty well skilled at hiding thier wealth. The differance now is the Church has no power to confiscate wealth, where the government enpowers itself to confiscate wealth. The Church was very good at getting voluntary contruibutions through guilt, the State has no such thing as voluntary contribution, it enriches itself and those within by a tax (confiscation) system enforced by physical power.

In the US today the "Church" is dieing, becomming the target of those who again wish to replace religion and those beliefs with a belief solely in the State as the Savior. The local Methodist Church has a vast and successfull 'thrift shop' where the "Church" and members donate clothing and household items for sale pennies on the dollar to the less fortunate in the community, the 'profit' used to pay the clergy and to maintain the Church since attendance is fading, and costs are rising. There is a group now that sees this as evil, the "Church" is profiting off the poverty of others. Yet if the State outright gives items to the same individuals the State is not seen in the same light, since the money to initially purchase these items were taxed and the State profits from this exchange in more ways than just economically.

That is the hyprocracy, those who see alliance to one faith system (Religion)as evil, demanding pure faith and blind alligence to thier faith and in thier system (The State).
Back to Top
Ben Grimm View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2009
Location: Awesome
Status: Offline
Points: 141
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ben Grimm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 12:58pm
^^^^^ That's a pretty good argument for simply abandoning all the sins in the Bible altogether.
It's Clobberin' Time!
Back to Top
jmac3 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Official Box Hoister

Joined: 28 June 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 9201
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 1:00pm
Before I continue reading the thread I just wanted to comment on this.


Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:



What do I mean by that?

Instances where the ten commandments are pulled from displays, or "One nation Under God" omitted from the pledge of allegiance in an effort not to piss off the handful of people who MIGHT take exception to these things. It just looks to me like they don't want to look like they're offending anyone whose of a different culture, while being perfectly willing to offend the people of their own. (historically) These might seem like trivial examples, but they hold, and they add up.

These are horrible examples. There is nothing offensive about commandments not being displayed. Taking them down is equal for everyone. You would have a case with that example if for some reason they were like "these christian commandments are no good, we need some Jewish or Islamic commandments up"
Same goes for the one nation under god. They are taking it out to be equal with everyone, not taking it out and putting something in its place.


 
Que pasa?


Back to Top
__sneaky__ View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Voted 2010 Most Improved Forumer

Joined: 14 January 2006
Location: Uncertain
Status: Offline
Points: 5285
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by Ben Grimm Ben Grimm wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Exactly how was I discredited?

 

Of course there is the new covenant. That is why I posted Romans 3.

 

The old law is gone, but that doesn’t make the old “sins” not sins… The only difference is we don’t have to kill animals to shed their blood to cover our sins, Now we use the blood that Jesus shed on the cross for that atonement.  

 

 
Where does it say that?
 
And even if that were the case - tallen's point still stands that there is tremendous cherrypicking amongst OT sins.  You yourself said that homosexuality is no more of a sin than other sins, yet I don't see any constitutional amendments being proposed to prohibit wearing two different kinds of linens at the same time, or requiring that women be locked up during (and following) their menstrual periods.
 
BUT - more to the point:  OP asked about JESUS, and (with one exception) you quoted everybody BUT Jesus.  Mostly OT, even.  Which really reinforces his point.
 
beat me to it you jerk. I was looking for that verse.
"I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl


Forum Vice President
Back to Top
tallen702 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - Swearing on Facebook

Joined: 10 June 2002
Location: Under Your Bed
Status: Offline
Points: 10950
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Why do people like to cast stones?... It's in our nature.
 

As a human, we compare and contrast everything in our lives. If the Jones next door have a better car we think about it. If we think the Jones house is better we think about it. ect, ect.

 

It's part of human nature, no matter if your a "Christian" or not.

 

Just like people that are Christians get divorced. It happens, doesn't make it right... but, that kind of thing happens.

 

I don't agree with your statement "The fact of the matter is that Jesus taught us that the kingdom of Heaven would only come when people treated each other as they wished to be treated. THIS is the ONLY WAY in which the kingdom of Heaven will be established on the Earth."

 

Many people much smarter than me have argued the different aspects of this discussion for centuries. In my youth I attended many theological discussions on the different beliefs in Christianity about this. And personally, I wouldn't make a blanket statement like that.

 

I think that after Jesus returns and the new kingdom takes over, that sin will be gone from the earth, and if that is what you are referring to, then I understand, but I certainly don't believe we will get there on our own. Jesus will have to return and the things in revelation have to happen before all that happens.

 

And most will die during those times.

 

 

My point in posting the sins in the old testament were to point out that many of the "sins" in the old testament are still sins today. They didn't change when Jesus came to earth.

 

Thou shalt put no other gods before me still stands...


And if you take Revelation literally, you're not paying attention to what has been said in the new testament again and again and again.

How did Jesus teach? He used parables
How did the Apostles teach? They used parables
How do modern ministers teach? They use sermons, which in essence are stories used to relate the tenants of Christianity to everyday life which (cue the trumpet fanfare) is EXACTLY what parables are.
So, what should the book of Revelation be examined as? Here's a hint, we've seen a running theme here.... That's right! A PARABLE!

Jesus never told us that he'd return and magically make everything alright. What he alluded to was that it was up to us, to humanity, to make him return through our actions towards one another. The goal of Judeo-Christian actions since the beginning have been to bring about a return to Eden. A place where the is no sin, no hurt, no pain, no disease, in short, perfection. The garden was destroyed by the selfish actions of mankind, those same actions are the root of pain and suffering today. The sins that cause us so much pain and suffering are the sins that we commit against one another, the selfsame sins that are addressed in the Ten Commandments of God given to Moses, and by Jesus Christ who said:

Originally posted by Matthew 22:34-40 Matthew 22:34-40 wrote:

"'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."


So, in short, Jesus is telling us two things. The first is that the Ten Commandments are really just TWO commandments if you think about it. If you love God with all your heart, you cover:
"I am the Lord your God,
You shall have no other gods before me
You shall not make for yourself an idol
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy"

Then, if you love your neighbor as yourself you cover the following:
"Honor your father and mother
You shall not murder
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not steal
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor"

After all, no one would want someone else to disregard these commandments in reference to themselves.

Finally, if you look at the last part of Matthew 22:34-40 where Jesus says, "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" you can understand that he is saying, quite literally, that those two commandments cover EVERYTHING important and that everything else doesn't matter. If you love God and cherish what He has given you in this life and you treat others as you would wish to be treated, then it covers the path to the kingdom of heaven. Jesus' message is so simple so pure, that it should be impossible to muck up, but somehow, not 100 years after his departure, humanity managed to twist his teachings to their own use. Jesus taught us that God is within all of us and all around us. But he also taught us that Satan is within all of us as well, and only by being good to ourselves and our neighbors, and only through our love of our one true God can we be rescued from Satan. I mean, seriously, how much more simple can it be than "Salus per Christom" meaning "Salvation through Christ." It doesn't mean that Jesus weighs our sins against our good deeds, it means that the salvation of mankind, of the entire world, is attainable only if we quit committing sins against each other. This includes the sin of casting stones, physical or theoretical, against others. Forgiveness is what Jesus taught us, not a sin for a sin retaliation.

FE. To simply blame the casting of stones on human nature is a cop out. If you were truly trying to be more Christ-like, you'd work to quit casting said stones and concentrate on forgiving others of their weaknesses the same as you would wish to be forgiven of yours. That very act of copping out and defending your actions by saying "it's only human nature" is exactly what Christ taught us wasn't acceptable. It goes against his teachings and the gifts that God has given us. That, in a nutshell, is what the OP was saying.
<Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
Back to Top
jerseypaint View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 November 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3649
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jerseypaint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 2:47pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by Ben Grimm Ben Grimm wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:


The only difference is we don’t have to kill animals to shed their blood to cover our sins, Now we use the blood that Jesus shed on the cross for that atonement.

Where does it say that?
beat me to it you jerk. I was looking for that verse.

John 1: 29 "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!'"

Jesus was called the Lamb of God because like the lambs that were sacrificed during passover for sins, Jesus was to be sacrificed for our sins.


And just saying, the laws in Leviticus were for cleanliness so that the Jews wouldn't die off from disease and would reproduce so that the Word of God would continue to live and be spread among the Middle Eastern tribes.
Back to Top
__sneaky__ View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Voted 2010 Most Improved Forumer

Joined: 14 January 2006
Location: Uncertain
Status: Offline
Points: 5285
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by jerseypaint jerseypaint wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by Ben Grimm Ben Grimm wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:


The only difference is we don’t have to kill animals to shed their blood to cover our sins, Now we use the blood that Jesus shed on the cross for that atonement.

Where does it say that?
beat me to it you jerk. I was looking for that verse.

John 1: 29 "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!'"

Jesus was called the Lamb of God because like the lambs that were sacrificed during passover for sins, Jesus was to be sacrificed for our sins.


And just saying, the laws in Leviticus were for cleanliness so that the Jews wouldn't die off from disease and would reproduce so that the Word of God would continue to live and be spread among the Middle Eastern tribes.
I love how the almighty all powerful god can't stop simple bacteria.
"I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl


Forum Vice President
Back to Top
ParielIsBack View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
future target of fratricide

Joined: 13 October 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 3782
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 3:36pm
Yes, because clearly he didn't create them.

Your argument, flaws it has.
BU Engineering 2012
Back to Top
StormyKnight View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 28 July 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2980
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormyKnight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

I love how the almighty all powerful god can't stop simple bacteria.
He can't?
Back to Top
jerseypaint View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 November 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3649
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jerseypaint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

I love how the almighty all powerful god can't stop simple bacteria.

I love how people don't understand free will.
Back to Top
Ben Grimm View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2009
Location: Awesome
Status: Offline
Points: 141
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ben Grimm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:


And if you take Revelation literally, you're not paying attention to what has been said in the new testament again and again and again.
 
If you take Revelations literally, you are smoking something.  Even the most ardent biblical literalists suddenly start talking about what this or that "represents" when discussing Revelations.
 
 
Originally posted by jerseypaint jerseypaint wrote:


And just saying, the laws in Leviticus were for cleanliness so that the Jews wouldn't die off from disease and would reproduce so that the Word of God would continue to live and be spread among the Middle Eastern tribes.
 
Where does it say that?  And does it also say that those laws therefore don't count anymore?  And does that mean that homosexuality, masturbation, rape, and incest are now ok?  (And sowing different seeds in the same field?)
It's Clobberin' Time!
Back to Top
__sneaky__ View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Voted 2010 Most Improved Forumer

Joined: 14 January 2006
Location: Uncertain
Status: Offline
Points: 5285
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by jerseypaint jerseypaint wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

I love how the almighty all powerful god can't stop simple bacteria.

I love how people don't understand free will.
Really? You wanna go there?
 
God created a bunch of people that never in the slightest asked to be created, was never asked if they wanted to be created, and yet, were in fact (according to the bible), created. Now because they are here, they are given a choice. Obey and worship the almighty spirit who forced them into existence, or suffer forever, without ceasing in the eternal hell fire.
 
So lets put this into perspective. If I decided to have a whole bunch of kids, and I told them all rules that they had to follow, no matter how absurd the rule, if they disobeyed, I got to set them on fire. But I would put it out before it killed them! Then set them on fire again. Repeat steps.
 
Now see, that even gives the kids in my analogy an advantage, they can see that I'm real. They know for sure. We have 0 evidence for god, yet we have to follow anyways. And we have to follow him specifically, when there are a couple thousand religions we could pick from throughout history, each of which having the same amount of supporting evidence, and if you pick the wrong one, even with the best of intentions... hellfire.
 
I have a big problem with religious free will. Free will seems so black and white... Obey God or follow sin and go to hell.
 
Free will implies that we know the bible is the truth. Gotta tell ya, those guys that strap 40 pounds of high explosives to themselves, or fly jets into skyscrapers, they have some pretty intense convictions. Do you really think Christianity is the only religion where you will ever feel any real internal conviction? If we don't even know which holy book is the right one (if any actually were) and we are given no evidence to say which one is right, that kinds complicates the system. Why give us free will, and then leave us with no earthly idea with which path the real one is?
"I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl


Forum Vice President
Back to Top
slackerr26 View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar
Strike 2 - language, 8/20

Joined: 24 June 2008
Location: Russian Federation
Status: Offline
Points: 1697
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slackerr26 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by jerseypaint jerseypaint wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by Ben Grimm Ben Grimm wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:


The only difference is we don’t have to kill animals to shed their blood to cover our sins, Now we use the blood that Jesus shed on the cross for that atonement.

Where does it say that?
beat me to it you jerk. I was looking for that verse.

John 1: 29 "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!'"

Jesus was called the Lamb of God because like the lambs that were sacrificed during passover for sins, Jesus was to be sacrificed for our sins.


And just saying, the laws in Leviticus were for cleanliness so that the Jews wouldn't die off from disease and would reproduce so that the Word of God would continue to live and be spread among the Middle Eastern tribes.
I love how the almighty all powerful god can't stop simple bacteria.
 
well he personally healed FE's broken arm, soooo you're wrong
Back to Top
__sneaky__ View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Voted 2010 Most Improved Forumer

Joined: 14 January 2006
Location: Uncertain
Status: Offline
Points: 5285
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 4:48pm
Originally posted by slackerr26 slackerr26 wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by jerseypaint jerseypaint wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by Ben Grimm Ben Grimm wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:


The only difference is we don’t have to kill animals to shed their blood to cover our sins, Now we use the blood that Jesus shed on the cross for that atonement.

Where does it say that?
beat me to it you jerk. I was looking for that verse.

John 1: 29 "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!'"

Jesus was called the Lamb of God because like the lambs that were sacrificed during passover for sins, Jesus was to be sacrificed for our sins.


And just saying, the laws in Leviticus were for cleanliness so that the Jews wouldn't die off from disease and would reproduce so that the Word of God would continue to live and be spread among the Middle Eastern tribes.
I love how the almighty all powerful god can't stop simple bacteria.
 
well he personally healed FE's broken arm, soooo you're wrong
LOL
"I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl


Forum Vice President
Back to Top
tallen702 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - Swearing on Facebook

Joined: 10 June 2002
Location: Under Your Bed
Status: Offline
Points: 10950
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by jerseypaint jerseypaint wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

I love how the almighty all powerful god can't stop simple bacteria.
I love how people don't understand free will.
Really? You wanna go there?
 

God created a bunch of people that never in the slightest asked to be created, was never asked if they wanted to be created, and yet, were in fact (according to the bible), created. Now because they are here, they are given a choice. Obey and worship the almighty spirit who forced them into existence, or suffer forever, without ceasing in the eternal hell fire.

 

So lets put this into perspective. If I decided to have a whole bunch of kids, and I told them all rules that they had to follow, no matter how absurd the rule, if they disobeyed, I got to set them on fire. But I would put it out before it killed them! Then set them on fire again. Repeat steps.

 

Now see, that even gives the kids in my analogy an advantage, they can see that I'm real. They know for sure. We have 0 evidence for god, yet we have to follow anyways. And we have to follow him specifically, when there are a couple thousand religions we could pick from throughout history, each of which having the same amount of supporting evidence, and if you pick the wrong one, even with the best of intentions... hellfire.

 

I have a big problem with religious free will. Free will seems so black and white... Obey God or follow sin and go to hell.

 

Free will implies that we know the bible is the truth. Gotta tell ya, those guys that strap 40 pounds of high explosives to themselves, or fly jets into skyscrapers, they have some pretty intense convictions. Do you really think Christianity is the only religion where you will ever feel any real internal conviction? If we don't even know which holy book is the right one (if any actually were) and we are given no evidence to say which one is right, that kinds complicates the system. Why give us free will, and then leave us with no earthly idea with which path the real one is?


*cough* that's not free will *cough*

Free will in relation to Judeo-Christian beliefs is the idea that what happens in this world isn't "God's will" In short, those who don't subscribe to the free-will theory believe that everything that happens is solely because God wanted it to happen. Someone is killed by a drunk driver? God made the person behind the wheel go get drunk for the specific reason of killing that other person which would then be done to precipitate further events.

Free will is the idea that we are created by God, but given our own free will to do with our lives as we so wish. In short, it's a question of puppet strings vs individual action.
<Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
Back to Top
jerseypaint View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 November 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3649
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jerseypaint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by jerseypaint jerseypaint wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

I love how the almighty all powerful god can't stop simple bacteria.
I love how people don't understand free will.
Really? You wanna go there?
 

God created a bunch of people that never in the slightest asked to be created, was never asked if they wanted to be created, and yet, were in fact (according to the bible), created. Now because they are here, they are given a choice. Obey and worship the almighty spirit who forced them into existence, or suffer forever, without ceasing in the eternal hell fire.

 

So lets put this into perspective. If I decided to have a whole bunch of kids, and I told them all rules that they had to follow, no matter how absurd the rule, if they disobeyed, I got to set them on fire. But I would put it out before it killed them! Then set them on fire again. Repeat steps.

 

Now see, that even gives the kids in my analogy an advantage, they can see that I'm real. They know for sure. We have 0 evidence for god, yet we have to follow anyways. And we have to follow him specifically, when there are a couple thousand religions we could pick from throughout history, each of which having the same amount of supporting evidence, and if you pick the wrong one, even with the best of intentions... hellfire.

 

I have a big problem with religious free will. Free will seems so black and white... Obey God or follow sin and go to hell.

 

Free will implies that we know the bible is the truth. Gotta tell ya, those guys that strap 40 pounds of high explosives to themselves, or fly jets into skyscrapers, they have some pretty intense convictions. Do you really think Christianity is the only religion where you will ever feel any real internal conviction? If we don't even know which holy book is the right one (if any actually were) and we are given no evidence to say which one is right, that kinds complicates the system. Why give us free will, and then leave us with no earthly idea with which path the real one is?

Again, you have no clue what free will is. All of God's creations are given unlimited choices, and what they choose to do is not chosen or denied by God.

And though many Churches teach your view of "believe or burn", I don't believe in such a malevolent God. Anyone that is good to his/her fellow person does good to God; love for God's creations is equal to love for God will be able to be with Him after death. Hell is for those who have separated themselves from God and are truly evil.

And God is not a trickster either, trying to fool you with 10000 religions. As I see it, the many religions we have only help reaffirm what God really wants for us and that is to be good to one another.

Edited by jerseypaint - 10 November 2009 at 5:25pm
Back to Top
Reb Cpl View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
2010 Worst Luck award winner

Joined: 10 June 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 14004
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Before I continue reading the thread I just wanted to comment on this.


Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:



What do I mean by that?

Instances where the ten commandments are pulled from displays, or "One nation Under God" omitted from the pledge of allegiance in an effort not to piss off the handful of people who MIGHT take exception to these things. It just looks to me like they don't want to look like they're offending anyone whose of a different culture, while being perfectly willing to offend the people of their own. (historically) These might seem like trivial examples, but they hold, and they add up.

These are horrible examples. There is nothing offensive about commandments not being displayed. Taking them down is equal for everyone. You would have a case with that example if for some reason they were like "these christian commandments are no good, we need some Jewish or Islamic commandments up"
Same goes for the one nation under god. They are taking it out to be equal with everyone, not taking it out and putting something in its place.


 


Okay, so at what point do you stop publicly removing symbols of Christianity just so someone isn't offended? Should Churches remove crosses from their spires because a Jew might become offended? Perhaps the Marquis bearing the star of David outside the synagogue should be removed too, just in case a Muslim becomes incensed at the sight of it?

Maybe roaside sales of Christmas trees should be banned as well, Its the same premise isn't it? At what point do we ban any and all public display of what we believe in? Equality is an awesome thing, it really is, but there's a difference between that and being too much of a candy ass that you can't accept the fact that SOMEONE SOMEWHERE is going to be annoyed at you for SOMETHING and being able to embrace your beliefs in spite of that.




Back to Top
Ben Grimm View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2009
Location: Awesome
Status: Offline
Points: 141
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ben Grimm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 5:35pm
^^^  Those are all private enterprises, free to do as they choose.
It's Clobberin' Time!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 8>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 10.03

This page was generated in 0.218 seconds.