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Why do conservatives ignore Jesus?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FROG MAN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 1:20am
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by FROG MAN FROG MAN wrote:

I didn't read any of the reply's but ya, I am christian, and if I was an American I would vote democratic even though I differ greatly with some major issues like abortion.
Nooooo. People need to quit voting because of their title and start voting because of what the candidate actually believes in.

I meant in the most recent election, though I admit its hard for me to really know what candidate i "believe in" when i dont care about American politics.

in Canada there really isnt such a big divide in religious and non religious parties. Canada already is pretty far left wing and where I grew up most Christians voted NDP which is very socialist. Though I will be the first to admit I know nothing about politics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 1:54am
Lots to say here, but I'll keep it short for now.

Firstly, Jersey is damn spot on, and Ben too.  

Secondly, I would argue that most of the Christians described in this thread are much closer to a political ideology then a religion.

Thirdly, it's a sad fact that those Christians who do understand what Christianity is about are drowned out by those who have false ideas.  I was brought up Episcopalian, in a church with a gay pastor, and I distinctly remember the best lesson I ever heard was about the birth of Jesus.  The speaker (frankly, I don't remember what his title was) talked about the story of the virgin birth, and how any High School student can tell you things don't happen that way.  His message was that these stories and allegories aren't meant to be taken as literal fact.  They are meant to inspire and guide us.  It doesn't matter if Mary was a virgin, or if Jesus turned water into wine, because in the grand scheme of things, such matters are insignificant compared to the message.

Fourthly, Religion isn't silly, it's its practitioners who become silly.  I've discussed this one at length before (also applicable to Sneaky's comment on Socialism Wink). Much like science takes nothing for granted and allows the toppling of old ideas in favor of newer ones, Religion needs to learn to adapt to changing times. For instance, it saddens me that so many people still seem to think that Religion and Science are "sides" in some sort of war.

Fifthly, on the topic of Gay Marriage, that is a debate for another thread.  I maintain that Marriage should never have been the name of recognized civil unions.  Marriage is a spiritual thing, and its meaning varies with each religion. Some sects of Christianity bless Gay unions, some do not. People should be allowed to be married, but the benefits and government recognition should come from a Civil union.  Instead, we are now taking a spiritual concept and turning it into a legal title.  I don't see any easy fix for both sides on this issue, but the fact of the matter is Gays deserve equal rights.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 2:15am
I don't really know what to say about that Darur... Church with a gay pastor and doesn't take the bible seriously? Stern Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 2:40am
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

I don't really know what to say about that Darur... Church with a gay pastor and doesn't take the bible seriously? Stern Smile

I'm hoping thats sarcasm, or trolling, but I'll bite anyways.

Yes, a gay pastor.  As posted before, Jesus made a bit of a point about the whole "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Everyone is a sinner, and Homosexuality is just another sin*.  Do you think that your own pastor/priest is flawless?  Why rule out only one type of sinner as unworthy?  It's silly.

And where did I say no one is taking the bible seriously?  The bible should be taken seriously, it offers a great deal of insight that's stood the test of time fairly well.  The morals and lessons within are some of the very foundations of western society. 

There's no doubt Jesus left a large impact on the world.  His teachings have inspired hundreds of millions.  Yes, with all ideologies, sometimes the wrong people get a hold of good ideas and good intentions and turn them into bad ones, but there's no doubt that what he taught was good.  So you tell me, which matters more: Inspiring Western civilization for over 2000 years, or turning water into wine?  How about walking on water?  

The stories within the bible are just that.  Many of them are inspired by historical events, but these stories carry a meaning which is far more important than the story itself.  Does it really matter if God turned people into pillars of salt? Does it take away from the meaning of rebirth and a new beginning if Noah didn't really survive a flood that covered the whole Earth?  The Bible is a collection of allegories and messages, inspired by God. 

* - Personally, I'm not so sure Homosexuality is truly a sin.  As far as I'm aware (and I'm not as well read on the Bible as many), Leviticus is the only book which mentions it explicitly, right alongside stoning blasphemers and selling children as slaves.  But that's another topic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 7:02am
I can't speak for everyone, but my religious views, (and I was raised a Catholic) don't really play much into what I vote for. I don't believe for a minute that democrats are the anti-christ, but I do believe that they can often be too accommodating to minorities while ignoring the majority.

What do I mean by that?

Instances where the ten commandments are pulled from displays, or "One nation Under God" omitted from the pledge of allegiance in an effort not to piss off the handful of people who MIGHT take exception to these things. It just looks to me like they don't want to look like they're offending anyone whose of a different culture, while being perfectly willing to offend the people of their own. (historically) These might seem like trivial examples, but they hold, and they add up.

This being said, my stance on abortion has nothing to do with what the church is saying- the final vote might be in line, but the reason isn't.

I see a LOT of blanket generalization here, and a real effort made to demonize Christianity and Christians, and I'm a little offended. Not by the jabs against the religion, but by the blatant willingness to lump everyone together. We're not all WBC, we don't all think alike. Hell, do you even know how much is covered under the wide title of "Christianity?" We don't all think the same, we're not all hardline lunatics completely unwilling to accept that things aren't the way they used to be, or even unwilling to embrace change.

"Christians are stupid, Christians are ignorant," etc. etc. etc. Really? You guy are the same ones who jump down FE and OS's throat whenever they blanket-statement "Liberals" but you're doing exactly the same thing if not worse.

 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 7:24am
Actually, it is much worse. I don't go after peoples deeply held spiritual beliefs.
 
I will respond as usual, but I need some time for research.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 8:33am
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

I can't speak for everyone, but my religious views, (and I was raised a Catholic) don't really play much into what I vote for. I don't believe for a minute that democrats are the anti-christ, but I do believe that they can often be too accommodating to minorities while ignoring the majority.

What do I mean by that?

Instances where the ten commandments are pulled from displays, or "One nation Under God" omitted from the pledge of allegiance in an effort not to piss off the handful of people who MIGHT take exception to these things. It just looks to me like they don't want to look like they're offending anyone whose of a different culture, while being perfectly willing to offend the people of their own. (historically) These might seem like trivial examples, but they hold, and they add up.

This being said, my stance on abortion has nothing to do with what the church is saying- the final vote might be in line, but the reason isn't.

I see a LOT of blanket generalization here, and a real effort made to demonize Christianity and Christians, and I'm a little offended. Not by the jabs against the religion, but by the blatant willingness to lump everyone together. We're not all WBC, we don't all think alike. Hell, do you even know how much is covered under the wide title of "Christianity?" We don't all think the same, we're not all hardline lunatics completely unwilling to accept that things aren't the way they used to be, or even unwilling to embrace change.

"Christians are stupid, Christians are ignorant," etc. etc. etc. Really? You guy are the same ones who jump down FE and OS's throat whenever they blanket-statement "Liberals" but you're doing exactly the same thing if not worse.

 
I mentioned that in the original post. I don't mean to lump everyone together, because I realise not all christians and conservatives follow the same rule book. I'm pretty sure everyone here understands that. I'm just referring to those who do fall under the categories what I'm talking about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 8:56am
That is the point. There is a very opinionated view here lumping religion into a 'demon' that society needs to rid itself of. Yet everyone MUST accept thier belief system that religion is bad. Like any belief system the radical element is the most publisized. The anti-religion individual demands the removal of a statue in the public park with the 10 Commandments on it, and recieves all the coverage, yet the 100's that find nothing offensive about it are ignored, because thier belief system is what is being attacked not the statue.

The culture has changed, and so has the belief system. With the power of government behind them the minority or individual feels thier belief system trumps a belief system thousands of years old. And as in 'Bread and Circuses' do all that they can to demonize religion, and to enhance thier views in the public eye. Christianity is fair game, because retribution is limited, Islam is ignored because the few attacks on that belief system has resulted in some pretty ugly issues up to the actual murder of the infidel that attacks Allah.

Under the definition of 'Religion" the mass worship of a diety is considered a 'religion'. SO yes by actual definitiion the "Religion of No Religion" is a mass belief system, with a diety (self or state). And now that belief system is the only 'relgion' that the Government should endorse. And any other belief system will be demonized.

Also through out history in order for any form of totalitarian rule to take hold, the first target is the organized religion within the culture. From Rome to Chavez each totalitarian state has first attacked the religion, minimalized it and replaced it with the worship of the state and it's leaders. In todays PC world the "Christmas" Pagent in school has been reduced to a "Holiday" Pagent, with no reference to the original reason for the holiday. In some communities public display of any 'religious' display (mangers and or Biblical reference to X-Mas)even on private property is actually illegal.


Edited by oldsoldier - 10 November 2009 at 9:06am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 9:11am

In order to respond to the question at hand, the only logical response is to look at the words of Christ himself, to see his perspective.

 

First lets look at Matthew (book of Matthew in the Bible, one of the disciples of Christ, and witness to Christ’s life here on earth)

 

Jesus was very clear about people who cause children to sin.

 

Matthew 18

The Greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven

 1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"

 2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

 5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

 7"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! 8If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

The Parable of the Lost Sheep

 10"See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

 12"What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.

 

According to liberals, there are “levels” of humanity. If someone is a minority, they get special rights, but, if they are unborn, they get no rights?...

 

Why is the unborn killed?... They are the “little children” and if we believe that “all men are Created equal”, then killing some who are innocent is a travesty.

 

The Bible is also clear that the unborn are still “children”.

 

I’m sure we all have heard these verses before as they are part of Christmas.

 

From Luke chapter 1

 

Mary Visits Elizabeth

 39At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40where she entered Zechariah's home and greeted Elizabeth. 41When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!"

 

Two excellent examples of Babies in their mother’s wombs being referred to not as “tissue” but as Babies, and how they can relate to the outside world they have not yet entered. And blessed babies at that, one is Jesus, and the other is John the Baptist. Imagine how many important men and women that have been killed in the womb, for convenience's sake... One may have figured out how to cure cancer, or bring our society closer together, or some other amazing revelation from their lives... But, now they are killed, before they even had a chance.

 

I talked to my children every night before they were born, and when they were born, as soon as I talked all my kids turned in my direction, as they knew my voice from the womb. To say that they “were tissue” and not babies are ridiculous, and even Planned parenthood directors can see this point.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,571215,00.html

 

14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.

 

 

And let’s look at the indoctrination of sin in our culture. It’s pretty clear from the posts on this thread alone, that the indoctrination of the public schools to believe in secular humanism and atheism is the goal of many in the NEA. This is a direct assault on the beliefs of Christ above. The bible is clear that sodomy is a sin. I bolded the part we are discussing for the “tl,dr” crowd, and left the rest in for context.

Leviticus 18

Unlawful Sexual Relations

 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'I am the LORD your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD.

 6 " 'No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD.

 7 " 'Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.

 8 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father.

 9 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.

 10 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter; that would dishonor you.

 11 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father; she is your sister.

 12 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's sister; she is your father's close relative.

 13 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your mother's sister, because she is your mother's close relative.

 14 " 'Do not dishonor your father's brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.

 15 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; do not have relations with her.

 16 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your brother's wife; that would dishonor your brother.

 17 " 'Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.

 18 " 'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.

 19 " 'Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.

 20 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her.

 21 " 'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed a]'>[a] to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

 22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

 23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.

 24 " 'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.

 29 " 'Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "

 

To promote this “lifestyle” as acceptable when it is in clear contradiction with Christianity (as it is a sin according to the Bible), is an example of “woe to the man through whom they come!” as in schools liberals are teaching this sin as an acceptable “lifestyle” when it is in fact an abomination to God.

 

http://wwww.examiner.com/x-2359-Evangelical-Examiner~y2009m4d14-Schools-that-promote-the-gay-lifestyle

 

So, if the schools are teaching this “lifestyle” and this is the first time the student (aka little children) is hearing about it, wouldn’t they be in direct assault on Jesus teachings?

 

 

Of course, picking out the sin of homosexuality and placing it on a pedestal as if it is any different than other sins is just as bad. All sin separates us from God, and we are all guilty of sin. We were born with a sin nature, and our struggle with this sin nature daily is part of life. Some religious people like to harp on specific sins, but to God, they are all the same. The proud religious types that like to demean others for their sins are just as guilty as the ones they are picking on.

 

The following is from Romans 3, and even in Biblical times, there were discussions like this, as back then the “religious” ones felt that only circumcised men would be worthy of God.

 

Here are Paul’s writings on this subject. (the same Paul who before he changed his name was Saul, and he was one of the chief prosecutors of people that followed Jesus, and had many of them killed… I think that is much worse of a sin, but again, God doesn’t view sin in “better or worse” sins, they are all the same, and he forgave Saul/Paul and built his church on his teachings about Jesus… The same guy who had other Christians murdered for their beliefs in Jesus…

Yet another example of how God loves each and every one of us, even though we sin daily, and He wants a relationship with us. 

Romans 3

God's Faithfulness

 1What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.

 3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
   "So that you may be proved right when you speak
      and prevail when you judge."a]'>[a]

 5But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

No One is Righteous

 9What shall we conclude then? Are we any betterb]'>[b]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
   "There is no one righteous, not even one;
    11there is no one who understands,
      no one who seeks God.
 12All have turned away,
      they have together become worthless;
   there is no one who does good,
      not even one."c]'>[c]
 13"Their throats are open graves;
      their tongues practice deceit."d]'>[d]
   "The poison of vipers is on their lips."e]'>[e]
    14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."f]'>[f]
 15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    16ruin and misery mark their ways,
 17and the way of peace they do not know."g]'>[g]
    18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."h]'>[h]

 19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Righteousness Through Faith

 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

 27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

 

As a child of God, I realize that I have made a ton of mistakes in my life, and each day I strive to get closer to God. Does that mean I will be perfect?...

 

Nope, I can guarantee that I won’t be, but it doesn’t mean I don’t try. The Bible talks about how important it is to have a good work ethic, and to daily try and bring the lost to him. I try and do that, and I have seen Gods hand in my life, the direction He gives me is the strength I need to continue, as I was once in the same position many of you on this board are in.

 

I used many of the same arguments that you present… As I was there, I remember the hurt and pain of that time in my life. Personally I blamed God for a long time. Until the scriptures that were in my brain finally started to make sense.

 

 

“ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”. Not some, ALL, by putting our “faith” in man, we are destined to be disappointed. Hence the constant struggle with politicians that say one thing and do another.

 

The liberal/conservative debate is based on a world view that is either moving, or constant.

 

Liberals are typically more ethically relative, while conservatives believe in a firm foundation of principles that are constant and don’t vary with time.

 

And since Christianity is based on a constant (the Bible) it makes since that most conservatives have a Christian, or religious background. And attempts to make our country more “morally relative” will find the greatest conflict with these people as they see our country as founded on a series of principles based on constant time tested beliefs.

 

Like “One nation under God”…

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 9:34am
It is interesting that the conservative/liberal arguement is so trivialized by those on the left. According to the Liberals or Left Leaning in our culture even the Constitution is a 'living' document that must conform to the views only they see as important to society. Seperation of Church and State, is never mentioned in the Constitution, but the Left seldoms adheres to the part of the Constitution that is in writing, part of the 1st Amendment, that does not conform to thier agenda, and is found inconvienient to thier beliefs, the simple statement of "or prohibit the free exercise thereof".


Conservatives are by nature resistant to change, Liberals demand change as thier personal desires see fit. Nature of the Beast.

Edited by oldsoldier - 10 November 2009 at 9:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 10:19am
Ohhh!!!

Here comes the FUN part! This is where every single thing in FE's post gets discredited by his own bible!!!! YAY!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Jeremiah 31:31-34 Jeremiah 31:31-34 wrote:


31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
       "when I will make a new covenant
       with the house of Israel
       and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
       I made with their forefathers
       when I took them by the hand
       to lead them out of Egypt,
       because they broke my covenant,
       though I was a husband to them,"
       declares the LORD.

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
       after that time," declares the LORD.
       "I will put my law in their minds
       and write it on their hearts.
       I will be their God,
       and they will be my people.

34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
       or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
       because they will all know me,
       from the least of them to the greatest,"
       declares the LORD.
       "For I will forgive their wickedness
       and will remember their sins no more."


Follow that old testament reading up with (and this is very very very important) the NEW TESTAMENT (basis of christian belief here folks) readings from the following:

Originally posted by Luke 22:20 Luke 22:20 wrote:


In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.


Originally posted by 1Corinthians 11:25 1Corinthians 11:25 wrote:


In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."


Originally posted by 2Corinthians 3:6 2Corinthians 3:6 wrote:


He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


Originally posted by Hebrews 8:8 Hebrews 8:8 wrote:


But God found fault with the people and said:
   "The time is coming, declares the Lord,
      when I will make a new covenant
   with the house of Israel
      and with the house of Judah.


Originally posted by Hebrews9:15 Hebrews9:15 wrote:


For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.


Originally posted by Hebews12:24 Hebews12:24 wrote:


To Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.


So, in short, it is the absolute foundation of true Christian beliefs that Christ's sacrifice on the cross threw out the old covenant made with the Israelites on Mount Sinai and threw out the old laws and replaced them with the covenant through Jesus which guarantees eternal life to those who follow his teachings.

This is the problem with modern Christians, they only read the message that they want to hear rather than the message Christ taught us. Anyone who argues Leviticus and hasn't set their own house on fire because of mildew in the tub has broken a law which is considered every bit as horrible to God as lying with another man as one would lie with a woman and deserves the same punishment if Leviticus is the standard to which they are holding people. Heck, forget about eating bacon, or mixing meat and dairy if you're going to cite Leviticus there folks. Once you break one law, you've broken them all as far as the old testament is concerned.

Now, quit being hypocrites and get busy loving thy neighbors and doing unto others as you would have them do unto you as Jesus Christ told you.

Edited by tallen702 - 10 November 2009 at 10:19am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 10:26am
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

It is interesting that the conservative/liberal arguement is so trivialized by those on the left. According to the Liberals or Left Leaning in our culture even the Constitution is a 'living' document that must conform to the views only they see as important to society. Seperation of Church and State, is never mentioned in the Constitution, but the Left seldoms adheres to the part of the Constitution that is in writing, part of the 1st Amendment, that does not conform to thier agenda, and is found inconvienient to thier beliefs, the simple statement of "or prohibit the free exercise thereof".


Conservatives are by nature resistant to change, Liberals demand change as thier personal desires see fit. Nature of the Beast.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" I found it!
 
How does that not fit? Some of the founding fathers were religious, but they secularists above all else. That clause in no way supports your stance. I realize it says congress cannot prohibit the free exercise of religion, which is perfectly fine. Practice your religion all you want. But it also says congress cannot make any law respecting any religion. If you wan't to pray to Thor, congress cannot make any law against that. That does not mean in any way at all that your religion is a part of our government. Whether you are a christian, a muslim, or a viking.
 
People came to this country to get away from a country who could'nt seperate church and state. Do we really want to revert to that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 10:38am
Problem is that communities are passing laws prohibiting the free exercise thereof. The manger display on private property being seen as a public nuisance because someone took offense, actually prohibited the property owner from the free exercise therein. The Fremont, NE case of the Veterans memorial having the name of "God" on it in a public place, and the Judge who oredered it's removal. (and the 80 year old WW2 vet standing there in Uniform defending the monument and his right of free exercise therein. And the college student who took the case up the courts system because she was offended by the name "god" in public place, hense forcing her individual beleifs on the community.)

We are no where near the formnation of a state religion, other than the official state religion of "The religion of No religion".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 10:38am

Exactly how was I discredited?

 

Of course there is the new covenant. That is why I posted Romans 3.

 

The old law is gone, but that doesn’t make the old “sins” not sins… The only difference is we don’t have to kill animals to shed their blood to cover our sins, Now we use the blood that Jesus shed on the cross for that atonement.  

 

What if we sin on purpose over and over and over?... Are we still Christians if in our heart we don’t care if we sin or not? Or does the Holy Spirit convict us of our sins…

 

The goal of Christians is to be “Christ” like, and remember he threw out the thieves and money changers in the temple…

 

Matthew 21

 

 10And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?

 11And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

 12And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

 13And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

 14And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.

 15And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased,

 16And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

He also fought against the “religious” who were manipulating people for their own increased power and control.

 

What exactly has changed in our society?... Now we have science and politicians that manipulate people to increase their power and control, instead of religion/government that our founding fathers were fighting against.

 

Man still has a sin nature, unless it is politically incorrect to label it as such…

They tremble at my name...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 10:46am
Quoting scriture to the phylisophically blind is like peeing into the wind. Those of us who understand scripture as part of our faith system will allways be suspect by those who only take the parts of scripture they can manipulate to further thier personal goals.

We of faith understand mans failings: "And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves". Those without a belief or faith only see the faith or belief as a failure, not man, for to see man as the weak link in the equation is to admit thier own weaknesses.

Edited by oldsoldier - 10 November 2009 at 10:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 11:01am
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Problem is that communities are passing laws prohibiting the free exercise thereof. The manger display on private property being seen as a public nuisance because someone took offense, actually prohibited the property owner from the free exercise therein. The Fremont, NE case of the Veterans memorial having the name of "God" on it in a public place, and the Judge who oredered it's removal. (and the 80 year old WW2 vet standing there in Uniform defending the monument and his right of free exercise therein. And the college student who took the case up the courts system because she was offended by the name "god" in public place, hense forcing her individual beleifs on the community.)

We are no where near the formnation of a state religion, other than the official state religion of "The religion of No religion".
And they can be challenged as being unconstitutional. Welcome to America Big smile w00t! for us actually using the court system for what they were designed it to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ben Grimm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 11:42am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Exactly how was I discredited?

 

Of course there is the new covenant. That is why I posted Romans 3.

 

The old law is gone, but that doesn’t make the old “sins” not sins… The only difference is we don’t have to kill animals to shed their blood to cover our sins, Now we use the blood that Jesus shed on the cross for that atonement.  

 

 
Where does it say that?
 
And even if that were the case - tallen's point still stands that there is tremendous cherrypicking amongst OT sins.  You yourself said that homosexuality is no more of a sin than other sins, yet I don't see any constitutional amendments being proposed to prohibit wearing two different kinds of linens at the same time, or requiring that women be locked up during (and following) their menstrual periods.
 
BUT - more to the point:  OP asked about JESUS, and (with one exception) you quoted everybody BUT Jesus.  Mostly OT, even.  Which really reinforces his point.
 


Edited by Ben Grimm - 10 November 2009 at 12:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ben Grimm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 11:45am
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

I don't really know what to say about that Darur... Church with a gay pastor and doesn't take the bible seriously? Stern Smile
 
This is an amazing post - as in it is an amazing display of just how thoroughly American hardcore evangelical christianity has managed to take over the entire religion, and define it in their own image (at least to Americans).
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by Ben Grimm Ben Grimm wrote:


or requiring that women be locked up duruing (and following) their menstrual periods.
 


I vote for this one!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2009 at 12:09pm
My point, FE is that quoting old testament scripture has no bearing on true Christian faith. The whole point of the new covenant was that God understood what it meant to be human and how temptation worked. If you truly believe in the holy trinity, then you'd understand that. Jesus wasn't some human suit that God chose to wear around for the day like some celebrity in a fat suit. He was human in every aspect. He could die as a mortal on the cross, he could be tempted by sin, he could feel as a human does because he was human in every aspect. This is why the resurrection of Christ is so comforting to those of the Christian faith. It is the witnessing of a promise of everlasting life fulfilled in the most vivid of ways. Having known what it was to be human, and knowing that he was still part God and thus able to better withstand temptation, Christ forgives us of all of our sins if we ask forgiveness.

You are right about one thing though FE, being Christ-like is a tenant of Christianity and a very important one at that, so why then do so many self-proclaimed "christians" out there like to cast stones? Why do these same people who claim to read the bible where Jesus says "Let him without sin cast the first stone" quote Leviticus when according to that same book of Judaic law they too have sinned just as gravely as others? That isn't being Christ-like at all. It's the opposite of Christ, it is (in every definition of the word) being an Antichrist.

The fact of the matter is that Jesus taught us that the kingdom of Heaven would only come when people treated each other as they wished to be treated. THIS is the ONLY WAY in which the kingdom of Heaven will be established on the Earth. Jesus himself alludes to that in his parables and all of his teachings. Jesus was arrested and crucified not for following Judaic law and teachings to the letter, he was arrested and crucified because he chose to question those who would pervert the message of love for one another and love for God for their own benefit.

Finally, you can't compare the story of the moneychangers in the temple with the progress of science and political aspirations of today. That's perverting the account of a man's rage over the desecration of his father's physical house. You have to remember that the Hebrews believed that God physically resided in the Temple on the Mount in Jerusalem. If any kind of parallel can be drawn today, it would be evangelicals who have perverted Christ's teachings for their own benefit. People like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are today's moneylenders using the house of God to benefit themselves.

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