Tippmann Pneumatics Inc. Homepage
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

pbnoob healthcare special

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
ParielIsBack View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
future target of fratricide

Joined: 13 October 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 3782
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 November 2009 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Uhm, OK, this is sort of 'stream of consciousness'.

1. Coverage. Everybody is able to access necessary care.

2. Accessibility. Individuals in need of health care are able to access it in a manner timely to their condition.

3. Thoroughness. Conditions are treated, medical situations are resolved wheresoever possible.

4. Prevention. Emphasis is placed on reducing end costs by preventative medicine that reduces or mitigates later illness. Regular cancer screening, easy access to diagnostic facilities and equipment, etc.

5. Compassion. People are patients first, and their rights, needs and concerns are respected by all parties in the healthcare system.

6 Professionalism. Medical professionals are kept to a high standard of practice and conduct.


That's my initial thoughts.


That's a relatively good list, at least to start with.

Personally, I want a health care system I can trust -- professionalism, compassion, accessibility, and coverage in Bri's comments all play into that.  I don't want to get in a car accident and find that I owe hundreds of thousands of dollars in hospital fees -- I'm more than willing to pay lots of money up front so that if that happens, I will not only get good care, but won't be hugely in debt.

I don't think that a health care system run by the federal government, or even a health insurance plan run by the federal government, puts my needs at risk here, which is really the only reason I am willing to support Obama's health care plan.  I don't know for sure that it will improve lives, but I think it's worth the financial risk at this point.
BU Engineering 2012
Back to Top
tallen702 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - Swearing on Facebook

Joined: 10 June 2002
Location: Under Your Bed
Status: Offline
Points: 10949
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 November 2009 at 10:19pm
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

What are some good measures of how a system is doing?


The availability of care to the people is a good factor to judge by. Are hospitals and doctors readily accessible to the public, even in rural areas. What are the wait times and conditions for admittance to the hospital?

The success rate of procedures. What percentage of patients return to care for the same issues after their first visit? Furthermore, how many times must they return until the problem is resolved?

The availability of procedures and tests. Do patients have access to the most advanced and successful medical procedures and tests out there?

I had a whole lot more, but work interrupted my posting by about 7 hours.
<Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
Back to Top
jerseypaint View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 November 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3649
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jerseypaint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2009 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Isn't there already a ranking system in place for which countries provide the best healthcare? When facts are slapping you in the face (in general, not you FE, Im just below your post) why is it so hard to see what they're doing and consider how you could apply it to yourself. Yes I know the system in countries like Norway would NEVER work in the US even just because of population, but you've got to start somewhere. The current system is crap.
But that is the crux of the argument. Is our system actually crap? Or is our system actually doing really well considering that we are a society of overindulgence, I.e fat, lazy, 2 pack a day smoking lumps of goo? Sure, if we were a society of intelligent, Scandinavians, with little ethnic diversity and a lifestyle that centered around healthy living and excercise, our life expectancy should and would be higher. Our cost per person to acheive the same life expectancy, infant mortality rates etc would be significantly less than they are now. Other industrialized nations are not having to fight the same battles we do, because they do not necessarily exist within those cultures. A few points; infant mortality rates within the U.S. are significantly higher among minoriites, thus making ours seem considerably higher than what they are. Mainly attributable to low average birthweights among other things. Mortality rates due to heart disease are higher in some male ethnic minorities than others again skewing the figures. Comparing our health against those of other countries is nearly like comparing apples to french fries. It isn't so much as what we are comparing as it is what we are not taking into consideration.  You can't compare the life expectancy rate of an inner city hispanic male that lives off of McD's and Coke with that of a Norwegian who cycles 200 miles a week and eats mostly unprocessed foods and drinks water.
 

So I guess my answer to Peter is, we are using the right points, just not analyzing them or weighting them correctly.

 

A thought actually came to me and I may ramble a bit trying to express it, but I thought that part of my aggravation with the proposed system is not that it will cover more people, but that it will cost me more money. My fear is that without changing our lifestyles, that we are on a road that can never see a decrease in our insurance costs. It will continue to escalate the fatter, less healthy we get. What if we were to adopt a system that rewarded good health and punished poor health? How about a fat tax so to speak? You pay on a sliding scale depending on how much you weigh in relation to your height, age etc.? Smokers are given one year to quit. If after that year, if they don't quit, any costs related to lung disease or any other smoking induced illnesses are no longer covered. Essentially, if you smoke and refuse to quit, if you get sick, you die? Make people responsible for their actions. How about universal health cards? Used kind of like a credit card. If you go to the gym and run 3 miles, you get a discount on your health insurance. Issue walkmeters on people and if they walk/run a certain distance, they get more of a discount. Further, people that refuse to excercise or lose weight get penalized through significantly higher rates. As I see it one of the only ways to hurt Americans is through their wallets and if it starts costing you money to be unhealthy, you will change. Look what happened when fuel prices shot through the roof. Suddenly people are looking at smaller, more gas efficient cars. Now that gas prices are down now one cares. If you are rich, want to be fat and pay for it, so be it, but it would encourage those that want to pay less, to do so by living a healthy lifestyle. We could get even more big brother and tax people for unhealthy foods. You want to buy a HoHo or DingDong, you get a 30% luxury tax on that item. You want to smoke em up, a pack of cigs will cost you $10, most of which is tax. Any health system whether current or proposed, will never truly be successful without changing the way we treat our bodies.

 

I don't think that our government in it's current state is even remotely capable of coming up with a system that could accomplish the task of changing our attitudes toward health. Last thing I want to do it keep paying (we can argue that later) for the healthcare I have  and than have to pay more in taxes to pay for everyone else. If we could come up with a system that made us healthier as a nation , we could reduce costs per person and spend the same money and get insurance for everyone. I don't really have a problem with covering more people, I just really don't want to pay more to do so.

I'm disappointed this post was yet to be commented on and seemingly passed over. I'm not very knowledgeable on healthcare, which is why I don't jump in on these debates, but this makes a lot of sense to me.
Back to Top
Enos Shenk View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
~-o@

Joined: 10 June 2002
Location: A comfy chair
Status: Offline
Points: 14109
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enos Shenk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2009 at 5:35pm
I guess Im just the type of person that breaks it down to the basics. To me, its a balance of risking failure against success. Color me naive or liberal or pinko or hippie if you want, but Im a fan of people not dying. Im a fan of people getting the help they need.

I would be perfectly fine with paying money so someone else can live longer or better. Of course everyone can "say" that, but the idiots opposing even TRYING healthcare reform are perfectly willing to let big corporations let poor people die. I suppose when you have that pass-the-buck insulation layer some folks can just write it off and forget it.

As far as Im concerned, there is no excuse for not even trying to better ourselves.
Back to Top
choopie911 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Commie Canuck

Joined: 01 June 2003
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 30745
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2009 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by Enos Shenk Enos Shenk wrote:

I guess Im just the type of person that breaks it down to the basics. To me, its a balance of risking failure against success. Color me naive or liberal or pinko or hippie if you want, but Im a fan of people not dying. Im a fan of people getting the help they need.I would be perfectly fine with paying money so someone else can live longer or better. Of course everyone can "say" that, but the idiots opposing even TRYING healthcare reform are perfectly willing to let big corporations let poor people die. I suppose when you have that pass-the-buck insulation layer some folks can just write it off and forget it.As far as Im concerned, there is no excuse for not even trying to better ourselves.



That's a big issue for me too. Why is progress such a bad thing? "NO THE WAY WE HAVE THAT SORT OF WORKS IS THE BEST!!!!!" It's just silly.
Back to Top
merc View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
American Scotchy

Joined: 10 June 2002
Location: VA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 7108
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote merc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2009 at 6:26pm
i havent really chimed in on to many of the health care debates but i will now...

the united states government is extremely inefficient. the amount of waste material is sickening and the attitude of government workers in regards to efficacy and being cost effective is a joke...

(i saw a dumpster full of brand new bar stock 1.25" + still in the cardboard because the cardboard had gotten wet so there was surface rust... this could have been taken off with a sander or in the machining process but instead it was scrapped... another time i saw half a dumpster full of nuts, bolts and even a set of dies for a pipe bender because "it was in the way" {easily $125,000 worth of materials and tools)

now, this example is not health care but its the attitude of the US government workers...

at work we have a medical facility and we can go to the navy hospital down the street...

a friend of mine lost half his finger in an accident on one of the ships... after he got to the dispensary it took them OVER AN HOUR AND A HALF TO DECIDE WHICH HOSPITAL TO SEND HIM TO...

at the hospital [portsmouth naval hospital] (i went to for a while when we 1st moved down here)

-it often takes 6 months to a year to get an appointment for an MRI or cat scan...

- 3 to 6 months for an appointment for intestinal problems...

- common surgerys are often botched and leave the patient permanently damaged...

- medical staff are rude and talk down to patients...

- staff with no training or experience are permitted to perform procedures they really shouldn't be doing...(this goes back to doing permanent damage to patients)

-in addition the facilities are often times run down, equipment is not taken care of properly, and patients are exposed to unnecessary hazards....
http://www.wgnsradio.com/alvin-c-york-va-hospital-colonoscopy-concern18-test-positive-for-hepatitis/7674/

that being said, i work in an extremely dangerous environment, i have already had a few injuries and had friends have injuries...

we all agree it is better to leave work and go to a privet doctor than it is a government doctor...

if i am able i would rather get outside the gate and call 911 than use the "FREE" government facility...

in addition to that, when i lived up north and having family along the border i have heard many first hand stories about Canadians coming to the USA for health care because they dident like the social system in place...

i have heard from germans about how awful their health care system is and how much better it is in the USA...

now, some states such as MA and NY (i know theres more but i dont know which) have state run health insurance programs... they have found that even when people are directed to the programs people dont sign up, and when they have their hands held and are signed up they dont go or take their kids tot he doctor...

i am for a state run health care system to help people who cant afford insurance but a wide spread federal program will cripple America (literally and figuratively...)



Edited by merc - 07 November 2009 at 6:28pm
saving the world, one warship at a time.
Back to Top
stratoaxe View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
And my axe...

Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6831
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2009 at 10:33pm
I really don't understand the theory that we're "letting poor people die".
 
We have one of the most abused healthcare systems on the planet-Medicaid, Medicare, indigent and charity programs, not to mention basically free ER care.
 
There's plenty of ways for people that are unable to afford preventative healthcare to get a state or local sponsored insurance.
 
I'm perfectly willing to support nationalized healthcare-assuming of course we either completely do away with or DRASTICALLY reduce state and federally funded charity programs.
 
And of course the idea that you don't participate in the program resulting in jail time is ridiculous. The various memos and ideas being passed around by some Democrats basically forcing at risk of prison sentence and fine everyone to take this insurance is insane.
 
Also, just to add, I refuse to pay for abortions unless someone's going to die, or rape or incest is involved.
Back to Top
Rofl_Mao View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
request denied

Joined: 27 October 2008
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3192
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2009 at 11:21pm
Back to Top
Project Irene View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
It really DOES exist!

Joined: 27 January 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4218
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Project Irene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2009 at 12:35am
Come back after a year or so and nothing's changed =P   Well, except the forum skin.
Back to Top
stratoaxe View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
And my axe...

Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6831
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2009 at 1:02am
Wow, I'm behind the times. Just noticed in ROFL's thread it passed...
Back to Top
Ben Grimm View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2009
Location: Awesome
Status: Offline
Points: 141
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ben Grimm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2009 at 3:00pm
Slightly sideways question:
 
I have golfer's elbow.  Not from actually golfing, unfortunately, but nevertheless.  This is basically like tennis elbow, just on the other side of the arm.
 
For years I had these pains in my arm when I did certain movements, and I never really knew why.  Eventually I got around to seeing some doctors for the pains.  Here is what happened (alternate cases presented):
 
Case 1.  The physician examined my arm, and then arranged for an MRI (or whatever - I lose track of the tests).  Over the course of a couple of months I had several tests done - scans, blood tests, physical examinations, etc.  Eventually a firm diagnosis of golfer's elbow was reached.  The recommended treatment was arthroscopic surgery, an expensive and invasive procedure with several months' recovery time.
 
Case 2.  The physician examined my arm, and had me do some demonstrative movements, and after about five minutes diagnosed golfer's elbow.  The recommended treatment was a soup can (any kind of soup), with which I was to do certain prescribed exercises daily.
 
In which case did I get better medical care?
 
It's Clobberin' Time!
Back to Top
Rofl_Mao View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
request denied

Joined: 27 October 2008
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3192
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2009 at 5:59pm
Speaking of elbows, Chuck Norris can lick both of his elbows. At the same time.
Back to Top
choopie911 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Commie Canuck

Joined: 01 June 2003
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 30745
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2009 at 6:07pm
Originally posted by Ben Grimm Ben Grimm wrote:

Slightly sideways question:
 

I have golfer's elbow.  Not from actually golfing, unfortunately, but nevertheless.  This is basically like tennis elbow, just on the other side of the arm.

 

For years I had these pains in my arm when I did certain movements, and I never really knew why.  Eventually I got around to seeing some doctors for the pains.  Here is what happened (alternate cases presented):

 

Case 1.  The physician examined my arm, and then arranged for an MRI (or whatever - I lose track of the tests).  Over the course of a couple of months I had several tests done - scans, blood tests, physical examinations, etc.  Eventually a firm diagnosis of golfer's elbow was reached.  The recommended treatment was arthroscopic surgery, an expensive and invasive procedure with several months' recovery time.

 

Case 2.  The physician examined my arm, and had me do some demonstrative movements, and after about five minutes diagnosed golfer's elbow.  The recommended treatment was a soup can (any kind of soup), with which I was to do certain prescribed exercises daily.

 

In which case did I get better medical care?

 


That entirely depends on the results. Was either case full of quackery? For your specific injury was the soup can method substantial enough, or did they ignore and exacerbate the existing condition?
Back to Top
__sneaky__ View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Voted 2010 Most Improved Forumer

Joined: 14 January 2006
Location: Uncertain
Status: Offline
Points: 5285
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2009 at 6:31pm
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Speaking of elbows, Chuck Norris can lick both of his elbows. At the same time.
I can actually lick my elbow.
"I AM a crossdresser." -Reb Cpl


Forum Vice President
Back to Top
Rofl_Mao View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
request denied

Joined: 27 October 2008
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3192
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2009 at 6:54pm
Pics or shenz.
Back to Top
tallen702 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - Swearing on Facebook

Joined: 10 June 2002
Location: Under Your Bed
Status: Offline
Points: 10949
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 November 2009 at 7:10pm
To add to choop. Were the pains debilitating? What was the extent of the nerve/tendon damage?
Could your doc determine those factors without a proper test? Of course not. Each person has
a different pain threshold and thus, without an MRI or ct scan, you wouldn't be able to determine
the quantitative extent of damage.
<Removed overly wide sig. Tsk, you know better.>
Back to Top
Ben Grimm View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2009
Location: Awesome
Status: Offline
Points: 141
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ben Grimm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2009 at 8:36pm
The rest of the story goes like this: 
 
After seeing a couple of doctors that took route one I hemmed and hawed about the surgery for a while, not wanting to face the recovery downtime.  The pain was not debilitating in my daily routine (I do work at a desk, after all), but quite inconvenient.  It was more of an issue for my athletic endeavours, where it limited my available techniques.  I never got around to having the surgery.
 
After a couple of years of delay on my part I ran into a doctor who took route two, with instructions to monitor the pain and motion range closely, and to not do anything particularly painful.   I was to report back on status every couple of weeks, and report immediately of any increase in pain. 
 
Improvement was noticable and fast.  That was a couple of years ago.  I am not 100%, and do not expect to be, but the pain is rare enough that it never occurs in my daily routine, and only occasionally in athletics - even then it is no longer debilitating.
 
The surgery was supposed to bring me back to 100%, but I do not expect to do the surgery.  I don't even do soup can exercises regularly any more.
 
The point of my cool story is that route two was quick, easy, harmless, and cheap.  If it didn't work that doctor probably would have recommended the surgery as well.  But the first doctors didn't even think of route two, because under our healthcare system they wouldn't get paid for route two.  Route one was filled with payment-causing procedures.  Expensive MRI machines that don't pay for themselves, surgeries that keep a family eating for a year, etc. 
 
We have trained our healthcare providers to skip the easy options and go straight for the nuclear solution to everything.  As long as we compensate our providers by procedures, our costs will always be high.  Critics suggest that cost-cutting could reduce the number of physicians.  First off, that won't happen, but even if it did - that's ok, but frankly we have more than enough MDs in this country.  Our problem is that we deploy them inefficiently.  The time I spent on route 1 probably sucked up 10-20 hours of physician time - and it would have been several times that had I gone surgery.  Route 2 took a total of 15 minutes of physician time (maybe 30 minutes with the followups).
 
Physicians are a scarce resource and we need to treat them accordingly.  Physicians need to be leveraged, not strewn about like confetti the way we do now. 
 
Same with machines.  Another scarce resouce that we hand out like candy.  Did I need three MRIs?  Probably not.  Did I need even one MRI?  Probably not.  But by setting such a low threshold for getting scans we have ensured that we need a very large number of machines.  Again, poor leverage.
 
It's Clobberin' Time!
Back to Top
ParielIsBack View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
future target of fratricide

Joined: 13 October 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 3782
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2009 at 9:45pm
Originally posted by Ben Grimm Ben Grimm wrote:

The rest of the story goes like this: 
 
After seeing a couple of doctors that took route one I hemmed and hawed about the surgery for a while, not wanting to face the recovery downtime.  The pain was not debilitating in my daily routine (I do work at a desk, after all), but quite inconvenient.  It was more of an issue for my athletic endeavours, where it limited my available techniques.  I never got around to having the surgery.
 
After a couple of years of delay on my part I ran into a doctor who took route two, with instructions to monitor the pain and motion range closely, and to not do anything particularly painful.   I was to report back on status every couple of weeks, and report immediately of any increase in pain. 
 
Improvement was noticable and fast.  That was a couple of years ago.  I am not 100%, and do not expect to be, but the pain is rare enough that it never occurs in my daily routine, and only occasionally in athletics - even then it is no longer debilitating.
 
The surgery was supposed to bring me back to 100%, but I do not expect to do the surgery.  I don't even do soup can exercises regularly any more.
 
The point of my cool story is that route two was quick, easy, harmless, and cheap.  If it didn't work that doctor probably would have recommended the surgery as well.  But the first doctors didn't even think of route two, because under our healthcare system they wouldn't get paid for route two.  Route one was filled with payment-causing procedures.  Expensive MRI machines that don't pay for themselves, surgeries that keep a family eating for a year, etc. 
 
We have trained our healthcare providers to skip the easy options and go straight for the nuclear solution to everything.  As long as we compensate our providers by procedures, our costs will always be high.  Critics suggest that cost-cutting could reduce the number of physicians.  First off, that won't happen, but even if it did - that's ok, but frankly we have more than enough MDs in this country.  Our problem is that we deploy them inefficiently.  The time I spent on route 1 probably sucked up 10-20 hours of physician time - and it would have been several times that had I gone surgery.  Route 2 took a total of 15 minutes of physician time (maybe 30 minutes with the followups).
 
Physicians are a scarce resource and we need to treat them accordingly.  Physicians need to be leveraged, not strewn about like confetti the way we do now. 
 
Same with machines.  Another scarce resouce that we hand out like candy.  Did I need three MRIs?  Probably not.  Did I need even one MRI?  Probably not.  But by setting such a low threshold for getting scans we have ensured that we need a very large number of machines.  Again, poor leverage.
 


You are my favorite forum noob, ever.

A large part of it is that we need to teach people to look at treatment like they look at their diet (although perhaps that's a less than apt analogy in this country).  When it comes down to it, most problems are treatable in multiple ways, and you should be picking the way that works best for you, not the your doctor. For that matter, if you're not seeing a specialist, or multiple practitioners, you're probably not getting all the options.  Shop around, find out the information that you should know, and make a good decision.  Doctors are not all knowing, perfect beings.  They're there to help, and like all of us, they sometimes fail.
BU Engineering 2012
Back to Top
jmac3 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Official Box Hoister

Joined: 28 June 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 9201
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2009 at 10:50pm
Pariel you are clearly the forum noob if you don't know who that is.
Que pasa?


Back to Top
jerseypaint View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 November 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3649
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jerseypaint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 November 2009 at 11:04pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Pariel you are clearly the forum noob if you don't know who that is.

You would think the avatar was a dead giveaway.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 10.03

This page was generated in 0.219 seconds.