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Traditional Americans are losing their nation...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 3:08pm
Ahh, the old separation of church and state phrase. Where did that phrase come from? I have yet to see such words in the constitution...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Ahh, the old separation of church and state phrase. Where did that phrase come from? I have yet to see such words in the constitution...
Really?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by The First Amendment The First Amendment wrote:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Oh, there it is...


Edited by Benjichang - 20 October 2009 at 3:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

 
As for the founding fathers, I found this on Wiki, thought I'd throw it out there since this discussion comes out quite often-
 
Originally posted by Wikipedia Wikipedia wrote:

Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Some of the 1787 delegates had no affiliation. The others were Protestants except for three Roman Catholics: C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons. Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (Episcopalian, after the Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists, the total number being 49. Some of the more prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical or vocal about their opposition to organized religion, such as Thomas Jefferson[12][13] (who created the "Jefferson Bible"), and Benjamin Franklin[14]. However, other notable founders, such as Patrick Henry, were strong proponents of traditional religion. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to that of deists.[15] 
 
Tons more about the founders can be found at.
wallbuilders.com 
 
 
I hope it is not too late for our country, as the reason we have been so successful in such a short time, is because of our dependence on Biblical values. Our constitution is based on Christian principles. Where the left is constantly trying to make us an "entitled" society.
 
The Bible is clear that we need to work to eat, and everything in our culture that rewards people for NOT working is against our founding priciples.
 
I blame Christians for being quiet and allowing our culture to decline to the immoral abyss that we have entered. And if we as a country continue down this path then we will have to answer to God, either that, or He owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology...
 
We were blessed for "one nation under God"... Going away from that focus has consequences.


Edited by FreeEnterprise - 20 October 2009 at 3:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

Originally posted by The First Amendment The First Amendment wrote:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Oh, there it is...
 
 
But, that doesn't say "separation of church and state"... It is very clear in the intent.
 
And yet when these rights are exercised the media and government ignore the tea party, and they also allow the banning of prayer in school...
 
And Obama wants to silence Fox... Interesting after reading that, huh...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

Originally posted by The First Amendment The First Amendment wrote:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Oh, there it is...
 
 
But, that doesn't say "separation of church and state"... It is very clear in the intent.
 
And yet when these rights are exercised the media and government ignore the tea party, and they also allow the banning of prayer in school...
 
And Obama wants to silence Fox... Interesting after reading that, huh...
"No law respecting establishment of religion" means separation of Church and State. It doesn't take a Constitutional Law professor to figure that out. Sorry man, the U.S. isn't a Christian nation just because there are more Christians than other people. You can't favor one religion out of thousands, as much as you'd like to turn this nation into a theocracy, you can't.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

"No law respecting establishment of religion" means separation of Church and State. It doesn't take a Constitutional Law professor to figure that out. Sorry man, the U.S. isn't a Christian nation just because there are more Christians than other people. You can't favor one religion out of thousands, as much as you'd like to turn this nation into a theocracy, you can't.
And yet that is exactly what public schools do now. They favor one religion out of thousands and force this religion on every student in almost every class.
 
 
Secular humanism...
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 3:46pm
/sigh

Absence of religion != secular humanism.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

"No law respecting establishment of religion" means separation of Church and State. It doesn't take a Constitutional Law professor to figure that out. Sorry man, the U.S. isn't a Christian nation just because there are more Christians than other people. You can't favor one religion out of thousands, as much as you'd like to turn this nation into a theocracy, you can't.
And yet that is exactly what public schools do now. They favor one religion out of thousands and force this religion on every student in almost every class.
 
 
Secular humanism...
 


Last time I checked, there was no "forcing" going on.  Yes, finding a common middle ground (science) upon which to educate our children seems to offend some -- you aren't actually required to have your children attend public school, nor are your children required to listen to everything they say.  However, ignoring science probably isn't going to work out for you in the long run.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

/sigh

Absence of religion != secular humanism.
Guess you couldn't click the link... Here I'll paste it for you. This is exactly what is being taught in schools today, they just don't say the students are learning a "religion" of secular humanism, as they know that society would have a problem with that. But, look at the points... And think about your education... Maybe you will be able to make the connection... 
 

What Is Secular Humanism?

Secular. “Pertaining to the world or things not spiritual or sacred.”

Humanism. “Any system of thought or action concerned with the interests or ideals of people … the intellectual and cultural movement … characterized by an emphasis on human interests rather than … religion.”

— Webster’s Dictionary

Secular humanism is a comprehensive, nonreligious lifestance incorporating:

  • »  A naturalistic philosophy
  • »  A cosmic outlook rooted in science
  • »  A consequentialist ethical system

Let’s examine these items one by one:

A comprehensive, nonreligious lifestance.

Secular humanism is comprehensive, touching every aspect of life including issues of values, meaning, and identity. Thus it is broader than atheism, which concerns only the nonexistence of god or the supernatural. Important as that may be, there’s a lot more to life … and secular humanism addresses it.

Secular humanism is nonreligious, espousing no belief in a realm or beings imagined to transcend ordinary experience.

Secular humanism is a lifestance, or what Council for Secular Humanism founder Paul Kurtz has termed a eupraxsophy: a body of principles suitable for orienting a complete human life.

A naturalistic philosophy.

Secular humanism is philosophically naturalistic. It holds that nature (the world of everyday physical experience) is all there is, and that reliable knowledge is best obtained when we query nature using the scientific method. Naturalism asserts that supernatural entities like God do not exist, and warns us that knowledge gained without appeal to the natural world and without impartial review by multiple observers is unreliable.

A cosmic outlook rooted in science.

Secular humanism provides a cosmic outlook—a world-view in the broadest sense, grounding our lives in the context of our universe and relying on methods demonstrated by science. Secular humanists see themselves as undesigned, unintended beings who arose through evolution, possessing unique attributes of self-awareness and moral agency.

A consequentialist ethical system.

Secular humanists hold that ethics is consequential, to be judged by results. This is in contrast to so-called command ethics, in which right and wrong are defined in advance and attributed to divine authority. “No god will save us,” wrote Paul Kurtz in Humanist Manifesto II (1973), “we must save ourselves.” Secular humanists seek to develop and improve their ethical principles by examining the results they yield in the lives of real men and women.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 3:51pm
Lol.

Lol.

Lol.

Lol.

Lol.

I think the covers all the times I loled reading this.
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 3:57pm
Agreed with Pariel. Just because schools, government, etc, don't push religion doesn't mean that they are pushing what you call "secular humanism" on everyone. There isn't an agenda here. We teach kids what they need to know to be productive members of society so they can function and have a career.

When you have a multitude of different viewpoints, you have to find middle ground. Public schools do this by leaving religion out of it. This. Isn't. A. Bad. Thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

Agreed with Pariel. Just because schools, government, etc, don't push religion doesn't mean that they are pushing what you call "secular humanism" on everyone. There isn't an agenda here. We teach kids what they need to know to be productive members of society so they can function and have a career.

When you have a multitude of different viewpoints, you have to find middle ground. Public schools do this by leaving religion out of it. This. Isn't. A. Bad. Thing.


This
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 4:35pm
No, the state is pushing a mass belief. Call it Secular Hunanism, or the Religion of No Religion. A "religion" is a mass belief usually associated with somwe form of diety. So schools in the current practice is replacing the diety "God" with "The State". but by the definition it is still a religion.

The phrase within the 1st Amendment "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" is forgotten in the Church vs State arguement by convienience. If the State was so anti-religion only true practicioners of said religion should have days like Christmas as a holiday, but use "religion" as an excuse for a convienient holiday, and then try to form it into an image they prefer not what the origins of the holiday is. Christmas is a Judeo-Christian belief of the Birth iof the Son of God, so the those in the state who want seperation should not celebrate or take the religious benifit. If we are not a Christian Nation why do we have X-Mas only off, Hannakah should be a work free work if the state was truely going to run with thier current holiday stances of we are not a wholly Judeo-Christian nation.

Many of the founding documents have the word "God" within the writings, and Washington and his staff prayed daily during the Revolution, as well as into his administration. The fear of a 'Church of America" because of the ties still to the "Church of England" by many of the colonists/New Americans resulted in the Jefferson quote, which was twisted to the current "seperation of church and state" fiasco.

Edited by oldsoldier - 20 October 2009 at 4:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rambino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 
When the actual JUDGE he selected can't be seen as centrist. "A wise latina woman" is better than a white male is definitely a left wing judge. Her ruling on the firefighters case is proof of that.
 
 
Not to derail this thread of brilliance and eloquence, but declaring Sotomajor not a centrist based on that one statement and that one ruling would be a mistake.  Her body of work actually makes her very difficult to pin down ideologically, and "centrist" is as good of a label as any.  She most certainly cannot be described as either far left or far right.  That may change during her time on the court, but at the moment she is as centrist as anybody else there.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 4:42pm
Guy, you are allowed to freely express your religion.

Any student can pray all they want all day long. They can be christian, Muslim, or pray to the flying spaghetti monster. The teacher just can't lead the class in prayer.

Christian holidays are always days off of school. So why do you have an issue if other people also take those days off whether they practice or not? Should we have days off depending on your religion? That means every month people will be missing stuff that other kids aren't.
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 4:45pm
Except, there isn't a law saying that we get Christmas off, OS. And Christmas has taken on a completely different meaning in recent times than what it started out as.

You can't standardize something as complex as religion. Even between various Christian sects, there is huge variation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 4:46pm
See tag line.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 5:10pm

No religion /= A religion.

Besides, you are allowed to have your own religion in school. Pray in school, nobody will stop you from praying before you eat your lunch. The school just isnt allowed to organize the prayer itself.

Evolution is taught in science classes because its science. We don't teach ID in classrooms for the same reason we don't teach children about the stork being the source of infants in classrooms.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 5:35pm
Guys remember, FE and OS are always right with their crazy theories. I mean we're all socialists here in north america after all now. You just don't know it yet because you're too naive with your studies, facts, and history.
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