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Traditional Americans are losing their nation...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 1:30pm
We probably should discount these links, Time is "pro" Obama so will continue the cause, The other two are also in the "pro" Obama pool, so of course they will toe the line. I am using the standard it is only "FOX" news defense as used by many here. You can "cherrypick" any links to support or attack any position, so............

Again what is the universal definition of "centrist", or what is universally accepted as "moving to the center", as long as the media reporting can define the term, of course he is mover to the center.

All posted links were political "softballs".

Edited by oldsoldier - 20 October 2009 at 1:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:


Again what is the universal definition of "centrist", or what is universally accepted as "moving to the center",



While "centrist" is not an easily defined term, political shifting is an easier thing to track.

Political shifting - in this case to the center - can be demonstrated in both the decision making process as well as the political outcomes. Examples here include maintaining troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, not ending wiretapping, not hurrying the closing of Gitmo, etc.

Quote All posted links were political "softballs".


Well, I called that one.


Edited by agentwhale007 - 20 October 2009 at 1:41pm
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 1:47pm
By "traditional" you mean ultra-conservatives who hate progress unless it benefits them directly?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by mod98commando mod98commando wrote:

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

...

America used to be pretty damned good at taking lemons and making lemonade. I think the loss of that spirit is one of the greatest tragedies America has undergone- and I'm not really sure when it happened...


That pretty much sums up my thoughts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 1:53pm
How about his avoidance of the Military command in relation to the needed Afghan decesion. He can not ignore it and hopes his voters forget. That is not moving "centrist" movement it is reality decesions based on need. The continued issue of the "public option", the Social Security COLA buy vote $250.00 one time payment (vote bribe), the legalize marijuana misdirection in light of current political climate is not moving cnetrist (he is buying the youth vote).

Simple question he refuses to answer: Why do you avoid talking to the Military in referance to the Afghan decesion, and keep delaying said decesion? (a hard fastball question)

But he is willing to field the networks "softballs" and play basketball in his "spare" time (according to FDR while the country was at war he had no spare time, what makes todays war any differant?)

He has no option in Iraq and Afghanistan and he knows it, make the correct decesion lose more of his voter base and lower popularity numbers, avoid any decesion maintains status quo, and the media writes it up as moving to the center.

Edited by oldsoldier - 20 October 2009 at 1:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

We probably should discount these links, Time is "pro" Obama so will continue the cause, The other two are also in the "pro" Obama pool, so of course they will toe the line. I am using the standard it is only "FOX" news defense as used by many here. You can "cherrypick" any links to support or attack any position, so............

Again what is the universal definition of "centrist", or what is universally accepted as "moving to the center", as long as the media reporting can define the term, of course he is mover to the center.

All posted links were political "softballs".


How many people here have used the "it's only Fox news" defense?  I have never seen it.  Perhaps you are referring to the fact that people here mainly attack Fox news?  If that is the case, maybe you should take a look at how many politically oriented threads are started based on info that is not from Fox news.  I'm not sure I have ever seen a thread that opened with "OMG you guys you will never believe what I heard on CNN!! OMG"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

and play basketball in his "spare" time (according to FDR while the country was at war he had no spare time, what makes todays war any differant?)


Hold on just a second.

Where was your criticism of Bush spending a very large amount of time clearing brush in front of the cameras at his Texas ranch during his time in office?

I dislike the whole idea of publicly showing your free time, regardless of it being brush or basketball. I think it is a shameless plot to look like a "normal Joe" no matter the political affiliation of those doing.
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

I could post links like this:

Link

Link

Link

But they are just going to be ignored and passed off as the "parrot media."


Or, they will be reviewed and if they pertain to the actual discussion they will be brought in...
 
The first and last link are over a year old, back when he was "candidate" Obama. So they don't count, as they are conjecture about how Obama "could be" centrist.
 
When the actual JUDGE he selected can't be seen as centrist. "A wise latina woman" is better than a white male is definitely a left wing judge. Her ruling on the firefighters case is proof of that.
 
The middle link was interesting, and a good example of traditional Americans being frustrated, as they turned out in droves to complain about healthcare, and yet, Obama is still trying to force it through, while blaming the delays on the republicans... Who have ZERO power. The democrats could easily pass this themselves. And the problem is with the democrats as they know they will own this debacle and will probably lose their seats when they get back to being voted in by traditional Americans...
 
Good example of liberal bias. I see tons of mistakes, and miscues from this administration that still hasn't filled its cabinet yet... (what you can't find all the brillian people that were promised by the media). No answer yet on the WAR... Nothing to help small business... (just this week they are talking about "new" loans... Wow, a loan, not a tax break... that will help)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 2:09pm
FE, you know how you like to talk alot?
 
I just figured I'd finally mention to you, that no one cares.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

FE, you know how you like to talk alot?
 
I just figured I'd finally mention to you, that no one cares.
 
couldn't think of an argument so you went to the insult card...
 
 
That's fresh, and different...
 
I guess this is an example of the "socialization" that my kids are missing out on in public school.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slackerr26 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

FE, you know how you like to talk alot?
 
I just figured I'd finally mention to you, that no one cares.


been said a million times thus far. he just likes to troll
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

FE, you know how you like to talk alot?
 
I just figured I'd finally mention to you, that no one cares.
 
couldn't think of an argument so you went to the insult card...
 
 
That's fresh, and different...
 
I guess this is an example of the "socialization" that my kids are missing out on in public school.
 
 
Didn't insult you. But good job at trying to play the victim.
 
I did however just quit caring about what you have to say because its not really worth my time to listen to you ramble. Its pretty much me running a never ending race for the special Olympics. I'll never win, and even if I do, I'm still a retard.
 
I do like how you try and pull that around into an attack at me tho, good job FE. Way to be Christ like! Just because no body cares about what you say, that doesn't mean we are insulting you. That just means you are insulting to intelligence in general, and I'm tired of wasting my time on a fundamentalist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 2:27pm
You know there was an article on Drudge yesterday that portrayed the Oath Keepers in a much less friendly, much more unstable militia-minded sense, but for some reason it's nowhere to be found. It was on MSNBC, but when I search it all I get is an opinion piece by a lady.
 
FE, I have a serious question for you, no real motive just a curious venture. What do you define as "traditional" America?
 
Because the way I see it, America is an amazing shapeshifter. Idealogies and sciences that worked three decades ago no longer function in today's society, and every generation grows up with different economic, social, religious, and legal idealogies.
 
There's a natural progression of things, and I don't really understand the terminology "traditionalist" when speaking in a political sense.
 
That being said, I'm a conservative for a few simple reasons. I'm for smaller government, more responsible spending, and accountability in politics. I refuse to associate with either party because as of recent administrations they've excercised none of those things.
 
As far as Obama being a centrist, I looked up the term on Wiki (I think we can safely use Wiki in this circumstance), and came across this-
 
Originally posted by Wiki Wiki wrote:

An alternate definition is to assume that the two poles in question (e.g., Left/Right) are well-defined, and then (i) define as 'centrist' any position which the Left considers too far Right and the Right considers too far Left, and (ii) define as a 'Centrist' any person who self-identifies more with those positions than either the Left or the Right. The weakness in this argument is that it is difficult to unambiguously and objectively define both poles at once, but that difficulty affects all political definitions, not just centrists.
 
I say that only because terms like centrist have been thrown around a lot when people simply choose not to associate with either party. Obama has clearly chosen what party reflects his political standing, and I don't see how he's even remotely middle of the road.
 
I don't see Obama as a slave to the Democractic party, but in the same way Bush wasn't even remotely the poster child for traditional Republican idealogies, that's practically meaningless in the scheme of things. He's still squarely seated in the left, and endorses their idealogies.
 
I don't think that Obama or Bush moved closer to the middle of the road so much as "middle of the road" is no longer easy to define. Both parties are having to rethink strategies and move away from long held ideas to survive in the current atmosphere.
 
I see these things as moving in the right direction. Which gets me to my original point, traditionalism does not define healthy politics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 2:27pm
Also, side-note.
 
FE, I spent way more time going to private christian schools than I did public, so if you want to point your guns at my education, ya might wanna get your facts straight.


Edited by __sneaky__ - 20 October 2009 at 2:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

FE, you know how you like to talk alot?
 
I just figured I'd finally mention to you, that no one cares.
 
couldn't think of an argument so you went to the insult card...
 
 
That's fresh, and different...
 
I guess this is an example of the "socialization" that my kids are missing out on in public school.
 
 
Didn't insult you. But good job at trying to play the victim.
 
Actually, you did insult me, since I started the thread and you said "no one cares" when it is obvious that people do. You can pretend you didn't mean it as an insult, but it was.
 
I did however just quit caring about what you have to say because its not really worth my time to listen to you ramble. Its pretty much me running a never ending race for the special Olympics. I'll never win, and even if I do, I'm still a retard.
 
I do like how you try and pull that around into an attack at me tho, good job FE. Way to be Christ like! Just because no body cares about what you say, that doesn't mean we are insulting you. That just means you are insulting to intelligence in general, and I'm tired of wasting my time on a fundamentalist.
The truth is still the truth, no matter if it is "comfortable" for you. And I didn't "attack" you, just pointed out the insults you threw at me. Glass houses and all...
 
Nice added insult btw... Guess that wasn't an insult either?...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 2:47pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

 
FE, I have a serious question for you, no real motive just a curious venture. What do you define as "traditional" America?
 
 
 
Hmm. Well I think it is a subjective term. But, for me personally, I go back to the people that came here to America. They came for religious freedom (puratins), where they would be left alone by the government to do as they felt was right between them and their God.
 
I agree that people should be left alone, they should be able to worship as they chose, if that means praying in school, so be it. If that means waiting until they get married to have sex, so be it. If that means they want ethical representation instead of corruption, then they should be able to get that.
 
But, today everything is so muddled, because the standard is trying to change, from character and ethics, to namecalling and a general lack of civility.
 
When was the last time you (not picking on you per say, directed at all of us) opened a door for a lady?
 
A "traditional" American would do that, and would pray and have a relationship with God, and would have a deep conviction about upholding the constitution and our nations founding priciples, instead of seeing the constitution as a "living" document that should "change" with the times.
 
equal rights, not special rights.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

FE, you know how you like to talk alot?
 
I just figured I'd finally mention to you, that no one cares.
 
couldn't think of an argument so you went to the insult card...
 
 
That's fresh, and different...
 
I guess this is an example of the "socialization" that my kids are missing out on in public school.
 
 
Didn't insult you. But good job at trying to play the victim.
 
Actually, you did insult me, since I started the thread and you said "no one cares" when it is obvious that people do. You can pretend you didn't mean it as an insult, but it was.
 
I did however just quit caring about what you have to say because its not really worth my time to listen to you ramble. Its pretty much me running a never ending race for the special Olympics. I'll never win, and even if I do, I'm still a retard.
 
I do like how you try and pull that around into an attack at me tho, good job FE. Way to be Christ like! Just because no body cares about what you say, that doesn't mean we are insulting you. That just means you are insulting to intelligence in general, and I'm tired of wasting my time on a fundamentalist.
The truth is still the truth, no matter if it is "comfortable" for you. And I didn't "attack" you, just pointed out the insults you threw at me. Glass houses and all...
 
Nice added insult btw... Guess that wasn't an insult either?...
See, right now. You are doing it again.
 
You manipulate everything. Did I say that people didn't care about whats happening in America? No.
If this thread were talking about how America is changing then yes, I would understand were you are coming from. But you take the basic framework and then pump so much of your B.S. into it, and then get all bent out of shape when someone calls you out on it. You do this in almost every single thread. That is what no one cares about. The America changing thing, yes, we care. Your ridiculous opinions and view points on everything, no, we don't care. Make one of those little voting threads asking the forum if we care about your opinions, you post plenty of pointless threads anyways, see how the results turn out. Us not caring is not an insult. If you want to twist the English language again, (yet whine when anyone else does it) you be my guest. I'm done with you FE. Comment away at this if you'd like. I have better things to do that sit and try to understand the mind set of an insecure, irrational, immature boy who thinks that he is right simply because thats what mommy and daddy told you when they actually payed attention to you. <--- That, was an insult. (Now I'm going to pull out one of your tactics) Stating the FACTS, and saying that no one cares, that is not an insult, it doesn't degrade you personally in any way. It's just the truth.
 
But now! I'm going to do something that you never could, because you are too attention starved. I'm going to walk away from you, and ignore you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 3:02pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:


 

FE, I have a serious question for you, no real motive just a curious venture. What do you define as "traditional" America?

 


 

 

Hmm. Well I think it is a subjective term. But, for me personally, I go back to the people that came here to America. They came for religious freedom (puratins), where they would be left alone by the government to do as they felt was right between them and their God.

 

I agree that people should be left alone, they should be able to worship as they chose, if that means praying in school, so be it. If that means waiting until they get married to have sex, so be it. If that means they want ethical representation instead of corruption, then they should be able to get that.

 

But, today everything is so muddled, because the standard is trying to change, from character and ethics, to namecalling and a general lack of civility.

 

When was the last time you (not picking on you per say, directed at all of us) opened a door for a lady?

 

A "traditional" American would do that, and would pray and have a relationship with God, and would have a deep conviction about upholding the constitution and our nations founding priciples, instead of seeing the constitution as a "living" document that should "change" with the times.

 

equal rights, not special rights.



Uh, I believe a big aspect was the seperation of church and state, which you certainly don't seem to be opposed to. A "traditional" american, those who came here, were not all religious zealots like you now pretend they were.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 3:04pm

Unfortunately, and this is coming from someone of the Christian belief, the traditional America you described is long gone, and politically there's nothing anyone can do to bring it back.

I think that the shift in moral conviction is the side effect of a free country. It's not just America-the entire world has shifted from a religious to a humanisitic viewpoint. While it does in a way sadden me to see the country so calloused against religion, especially people my age that feel a newfoud sense of superiority over those of us that choose to believe in a Higher Power, I understand that even though the constitution is not a living document that changes, the same can't be said for the population.
 
As a conservative we have to seperate our religious beliefs from our political convictions. You can't force a change in society through politics, that's counter everything this country was founded on. You can fight for your freedom to practice your religion, but you can't fight for that religion to dominate the politics.
 
Part of a free country is that when the majority changes, the idealogies and practices of that country change. I have this debate with my fellow conservatives fairly frequently, and my point always remains the same-if you give the country the power to define law based on, or intertwined with, religion, it's almost inevitable that at some point the religion the country is defined will no longer agree with yours, then you're in a whole world of oppression (cough...middle east...cough). It's the good with the bad-there will be times the majority of those in office agree with you, and there will be times when you're the minority.
 
What's important to me, and most every other American, is defining a set of core values that never change. That's where the left vs right comes in for me. I believe in my right to bear arms, my definite and without question freedom of speech and religion (unless of course these are taken to extremes, and cause other rights or freedomes to be infringed upon), etc etc...
 
I think it's possible to fight for your core values, but still accept that your views may not define society at this point. And for the record, I actually do open the door for ladies :P. Unless it's an ex...then I try to slam it on an extremity.
 
As for the founding fathers, I found this on Wiki, thought I'd throw it out there since this discussion comes out quite often-
 
Originally posted by Wikipedia Wikipedia wrote:

Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Some of the 1787 delegates had no affiliation. The others were Protestants except for three Roman Catholics: C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons. Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (Episcopalian, after the Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists, the total number being 49. Some of the more prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical or vocal about their opposition to organized religion, such as Thomas Jefferson[12][13] (who created the "Jefferson Bible"), and Benjamin Franklin[14]. However, other notable founders, such as Patrick Henry, were strong proponents of traditional religion. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to that of deists.[15] 


Edited by stratoaxe - 20 October 2009 at 3:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 3:06pm
I really need to proof read better...and note to self...it's "definite"
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