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Traditional Americans are losing their nation...

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jmac3 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 8:55pm
lol@thinking praying makes bullets not hit you and chutes open.

"If God is for us, who could be against us?"

Remember this. There are just as many religious people on the other side. Why is anyone dying?
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 8:57pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

"Stop sniviling" is a motivational statement comman with US Army Rangers. Does not prove he was or was not a religious man.

“crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, ‘Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God’s not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ...”

Combat is the ultimate in stress, things are said that are never meant to be said, friends turn on friends, fear overcomes comman sense, stupidity rules the moment. What happened on that hill will never be known as the troops involved will forever try to keep that memory locked in a place never to open.

OK, so a guy who is an atheist and whose family and comrades call him at least non-religious makes a last minute statement to stop looking for a god and start looking for a solution, and it is him bringing out the worst in himself. However, an atheist joining a prayer circle to bring ease to is comrades, to prevent last minute arguments, or to hide his atheism from his fellow soldiers, is a religious person. Do you not see discontinuity in your argument?

People are complicated. That does not mean that a certain set of circumstances forces people to be one way or another.


I have been there and done that, seen the worst in my fellow man, and the best, things were said that never should have been said, last words of promise to a dying comrade, name calling, motivational statements of color for clearity, memories I prefer to keep locked up myself. I may have been generalizing, but before a dangerous mission a few words by a Priest, Pastor, Rabbi, whoever will draw in even the non-believers.

I truely beleive that I am still here based on something that happened a long time ago and far far, away on a tiny un-named hilltop in Vietnam, overrun once, outnumbered... last I remmeber is firing the last of my rounds into the darkness...........and I woke up in an evac hospital. That to me defies rational thought I prefer to believe as I do.

And to all those other men fighting the good fight who died after being overrun, equally as religious in number and devotion as your group was, that lost their lives. I guess they weren't as important as you. Nor were the enemies who were overrunning you.

The idea of a miracle assumes that your position is favored over the others. What you don't account for in your "miracle" were the communications lines that were flooded, the support that was on its way, the readiness and skill of your relief, the training that they underwent, the motivation they had to save their own, the position and condition of any and all equipment that was involved, the terrain you were in, your position in the terrain, the weather, the number of enemy, their physical strength at the time, their motivation, their relative strength to the units that saved you, the placement of the wounds of your fellow servicemen, the quality of care of the hospital, etc.

We can trace the conditions of your rescue through so many lines that, given a pause in time and the ability to assess the conditions, the outcome of your rescue could quite accurately be predicted. That is no divine intervention. It was the work of thousands of other people who raised, trained, equipped, and motivated the people that rescued you. It was the experience of so many other lost units that brought them the knowledge of how to rescue you. Other people may have died in the effort to rescue you.

To say that it was a miracle is to spit on their efforts.

One of the reasons I am so hesitant to go back on the tour.....these memories until recently were locked tight in a place I never wanted open again.

Go. You need to revisit the place. Yes, it will bring out emotions that you never want to have again. But those are also emotions you need to let out. A large outburst of emotion does very well to bring closure to an event.



Edited by Tolgak - 23 October 2009 at 8:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mod98commando Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 9:20pm
Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:


I have been there and done that, seen the worst in my fellow man, and the best, things were said that never should have been said, last words of promise to a dying comrade, name calling, motivational statements of color for clearity, memories I prefer to keep locked up myself. I may have been generalizing, but before a dangerous mission a few words by a Priest, Pastor, Rabbi, whoever will draw in even the non-believers.

I truely beleive that I am still here based on something that happened a long time ago and far far, away on a tiny un-named hilltop in Vietnam, overrun once, outnumbered... last I remmeber is firing the last of my rounds into the darkness...........and I woke up in an evac hospital. That to me defies rational thought I prefer to believe as I do.

And to all those other men fighting the good fight who died after being overrun, equally as religious in number and devotion as your group was, that lost their lives. I guess they weren't as important as you. Nor were the enemies who were overrunning you.

The idea of a miracle assumes that your position is favored over the others. What you don't account for in your "miracle" were the communications lines that were flooded, the support that was on its way, the readiness and skill of your relief, the training that they underwent, the motivation they had to save their own, the position and condition of any and all equipment that was involved, the terrain you were in, your position in the terrain, the weather, the number of enemy, their physical strength at the time, their motivation, their relative strength to the units that saved you, the placement of the wounds of your fellow servicemen, the quality of care of the hospital, etc.

We can trace the conditions of your rescue through so many lines that, given a pause in time and the ability to assess the conditions, the outcome of your rescue could quite accurately be predicted. That is no divine intervention. It was the work of thousands of other people who raised, trained, equipped, and motivated the people that rescued you. It was the experience of so many other lost units that brought them the knowledge of how to rescue you. Other people may have died in the effort to rescue you.



That's exactly the point I was trying to make towards the end of my last post when I mentioned life being like an equation with an infinite number of unknowns. The equation can't be solved by any human and people fear the unknown so they just assume a greater being caused the event to happen (cue God) because it's an easy answer. Now, if there is a God then it's quite possible that he's doing those things. However, there is no proof of God nor any proof that he did anything.

It's comforting to think that there is some greater being watching over you which is why people tend to become religious when they are really scared but that is not proof of this being's existence. Like I said, people fear the unknown. In a combat situation, they don't know if peeking around the corner will result in a bullet through their face but they do know that's possible and it scares them. The only way they can feel confident that it won't happen is by believing that there is something actively preventing it. Again, that doesn't prove that this is actually happening. It's just a psychological thing that people do to comfort themselves, often unintentionally.

(Disclaimer: Not saying that all religious people believe in God for the same reason)
oreomann33: Everybody invades Poland
Rofl_Mao: And everyone eats turkey
Me: But only if they're hungary
Mack: Yeah but hungary people go russian through their food and end up with greece on everyth
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 9:28pm
For over 39 years that has been my solace, my belief, and the reason I never returned to the church, was the fact that men better than I did not survive. I debated with my wifes Pastor, repeatedly on the randomness of war, explain why I survived I would ask, and why did Jerry survive this ordeal only to be killed by a drunk driver. I still am religious and believe, but not as a single defined religion. Part of my PTSD counciling...and there are still things in the box I will not unlock, I can't.

I have made up my mind I am going, for yes I need closure, I may even look up the AAR on the events of April 2, 1970 and how I and the remainder of the team survived, never really wanted to know. Laying there that night, I just thought that if this is how the Lord wants me to return, so be it, spent a few moments looking into the night sky, stars galor, and yes I probably prayed.
I have made several trips to The Wall, and recognized many a name, and I have then gone to chapel and asked why.
Some people here on the forum have seen the tears in my eyes as we played at TWC, and I would have to walk away because a memory was triggered. One of the reasons I am involved with Vietnam Living History is to help myself and those around me understand who we are, not the physco killer TV and Movies have portrayed us as. I still remmember fondly sitting with Nebraska National Guard troops during thier pre deployment retraining as I told the soldiers stories of long ago, thier questions and gaze as I told stories of VN, Grenada, and Desert Storm. For again I was among soldiers, something to this day I miss. I still beleive there is no differance today from my war, with the exception of the color of the uniform worn.

I would never demean the folks that pulled us out, but the questions outweigh many issues. We lost the PRC-25 during the first attack, shot through inop, I remember that I took it off Kenny's back and drug it over to my position after the first wave. I probably out of habit yelled into it, but it was inop as far as I knew. I was a 20 year old sergeant, losing my first true command, As a practice we never broadcast our NDP's for fear of enemy monitoring. I have no idea if Kenny got off a radio call during the initial assault. One second all was quiet, next was total chaos. I never recieved an after operations briefing on that night, got the obligatory Bronze Star with a vague citation on it, and another Purple Heart, and was shipped off to Japan, then Colorado. Even after returning to duty, and all the years I served after that night, I never opened that box, I did not want to know.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mod98commando Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

For over 39 years that has been my solace, my belief, and the reason I never returned to the church, was the fact that men better than I did not survive. I debated with my wifes Pastor, repeatedly on the randomness of war, explain why I survived I would ask, and why did Jerry survive this ordeal only to be killed by a drunk driver. I still am religious and believe, but not as a single defined religion. Part of my PTSD counciling...and there are still things in the box I will not unlock, I can't.

I have made up my mind I am going, for yes I need closure, I may even look up the AAR on the events of April 2, 1970 and how I and the remainder of the team survived, never really wanted to know. Laying there that night, I just thought that if this is how the Lord wants me to return, so be it, spent a few moments looking into the night sky, stars galor, and yes I probably prayed.
I have made several trips to The Wall, and recognized many a name, and I have then gone to chapel and asked why.
Some people here on the forum have seen the tears in my eyes as we played at TWC, and I would have to walk away because a memory was triggered. One of the reasons I am involved with Vietnam Living History is to help myself and those around me understand who we are, not the physco killer TV and Movies have portrayed us as. I still remmember fondly sitting with Nebraska National Guard troops during thier pre deployment retraining as I told the soldiers stories of long ago, thier questions and gaze as I told stories of VN, Grenada, and Desert Storm. For again I was among soldiers, something to this day I miss. I still beleive there is no differance today from my war, with the exception of the color of the uniform worn.

I would never demean the folks that pulled us out, but the questions outweigh many issues. We lost the PRC-25 during the first attack, shot through inop, I remember that I took it off Kenny's back and drug it over to my position after the first wave. I probably out of habit yelled into it, but it was inop as far as I knew. I was a 20 year old sergeant, losing my first true command, As a practice we never broadcast our NDP's for fear of enemy monitoring. I have no idea if Kenny got off a radio call during the initial assault. One second all was quiet, next was total chaos. I never recieved an after operations briefing on that night, got the obligatory Bronze Star with a vague citation on it, and another Purple Heart, and was shipped off to Japan, then Colorado. Even after returning to duty, and all the years I served after that night, I never opened that box, I did not want to know.



I can't even imagine what it must be like living with those kinds of memories. That's one reason why I get super pissed when people disrespect current or former military personnel. I definitely agree with going back to where that all happened though.
oreomann33: Everybody invades Poland
Rofl_Mao: And everyone eats turkey
Me: But only if they're hungary
Mack: Yeah but hungary people go russian through their food and end up with greece on everyth
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