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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 4:14pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Believe me folks having been in combat,"miricles" happen all the time.
 
Do miracles happen only in combat?  More frequently in combat than other times?
 

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

We can't explain the universe by ignoring a huge side of science, and that is the issue.

When you eliminate the spiritual aspect, are you actually on a search for knowledge anymore? or just a way to cement a bias as fact, by ignoring a huge part of our beings?
 
Well, science is doing a pretty good job so far.  Cars, computers, planes - that's what we get when we "ignore a huge side of science."  What has your method of science produced so far?
 

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 4:33pm
eternal life...
They tremble at my name...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CarbineKid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

eternal life...

I'm sure someone is going to ask you to prove that. I for one, would love to see the evidence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by CarbineKid CarbineKid wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

eternal life...

I'm sure someone is going to ask you to prove that. I for one, would love to see the evidence.
Faith man, faith.  /s
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 5:34pm
Due to the "conditions" I would believe more "unexplained" events and actions happen in a more dangerous enviornment than day to day life. Never had to worry about the random piano falling from a multi-story window, but the random "to whom it may concern", mortar round was a more frequent and pressing concern when it missed.....you, and not the guys in the next hole over.

Let's jump from an aircraft (so far my jump card states 2549) and see who is more concerned about a hopefull "miricle" you or me, I have faith in the rigger or myself packing the chute, your in a pure scared "Hope whoever packed my chute did it right" miricle mode if and when you hit the ground, at velocity or gently under an open canopy.
You wwill more than likely hesitate for that second before "knees to the breeze", while I am already gone and enjoying a few moments of free fall. Human nature, anytime an exceptional event, mainly life and death issues, miricles seem to appear more often.

Edited by oldsoldier - 23 October 2009 at 5:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 6:05pm
I find it strange how people point to perfectly explainable events as miracles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 6:42pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Due to the "conditions" I would believe more "unexplained" events and actions happen in a more dangerous enviornment than day to day life. Never had to worry about the random piano falling from a multi-story window, but the random "to whom it may concern", mortar round was a more frequent and pressing concern when it missed.....you, and not the guys in the next hole over.

Let's jump from an aircraft (so far my jump card states 2549) and see who is more concerned about a hopefull "miricle" you or me, I have faith in the rigger or myself packing the chute, your in a pure scared "Hope whoever packed my chute did it right" miricle mode if and when you hit the ground, at velocity or gently under an open canopy.
You wwill more than likely hesitate for that second before "knees to the breeze", while I am already gone and enjoying a few moments of free fall. Human nature, anytime an exceptional event, mainly life and death issues, miricles seem to appear more often.


Nothing you said has anything to do with a miracle. Throw a ball as far as you can. Now do it again, and again. Do all of the balls land, and stop in the same place? No, of course not. Being narrowly missed by a mortar is a fluke that happened to benefit you because it's trajectory was 2º different at the time of launch. That's a big change at the point of impact, and I'm positive you know that.

Your "miracles" just come off as foolish to me. I'm going to make sure my chute is packed right, and that someone reliable did it. Not have "faith" that it was while I'm already in the air.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 7:02pm
OS: I hope you aren't equating canopy openings to miracles. It has been shown time after time, a canopy will open based on its design, how it is packed and the conditions of opening. I can tell you that the quality of all of my openings are predictable based on how I pack and what I'm doing when I open. I know when the canopy I packed is going to open 180 on me or open with a strong right turn. Is it a miracle that I've had one malfunction among all my skydives? No. If my packjob is that shoddy, I redo it. No divine intervention involved.

As for the the battlefield, you will find no guiding forces protecting you from harm. The bullet that barely missed your head came from a gun pointed in a specific direction when fired into wind conditions that would be no different whether or not that gun is fired. The gun's position is based on the opposing soldier's position which is based on a billion factors.

Ok, so if that soldier had spun his rifle around a little bit faster, you'd have a hole where your brain once was. Provided the low probability that a quickly spun rifle will put a bullet in you, is it a miracle when the shot he fire misses or is it a miracle when the lower probability happens and the next shot severs the femoral artery of a civilian running to cover behind you? Whose miracle is it if the mortar lands in your buddy's foxhole and not yours?

Even with current technology, we can cover many of the factors going into combat deaths. We do it all the time with forensics. The only purpose served by the idea of a miracle is to make people feel better than others, to feel blessed by the god they believe in. It serves only to make people complacant and to reduce their search for the true causes behind events in their lives.


Edited by Tolgak - 23 October 2009 at 7:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 7:07pm
And you will have no hesitation to go out the door. To say No means you are a liar, a Jumpschool fact, the wide eyed look , and the OH MY GOD or simular religious help statements screamed by believers and atheists alike, and receding as the troop exits the aircraft. And how are you going to ensure you chute is packed correct if you have no real knowledge or expierience in packing you chute. You will take my word on an "act of faith" that I packed your chute correctly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 7:12pm
OS, I really don't see how that concludes that there is a god looking out for us?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 7:14pm
Tolgak: Technically you are correct, but my little "Hail Mary's" and crossing myself helped the mind during these combat situations, and when you are flying into combat, rounds striking the helicopter, 15 seconds till skids down, do not tell me a little prayer will not be filling your mind, "Please god, don't let me get hit." If you say No I will not be praying, you are lying and never expierienced a true stressfull life or death situation.

And no I am not equating canopy opening to a miricle, but as I walked the dropzone at Benning collecting the 1st time jumpers, many catagorized thier opening as a miricle, and it is a miuricle they survived. A lot of pee'd pants, vomit covered BDU's, and lumps in rear of thier drawers, for troops confident in thier training and the person that packed the chute.

Edited by oldsoldier - 23 October 2009 at 7:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 7:20pm

I understand its probably alot easier to say we are atheists in this situation, but that doesn't make our points any less valid. It was easier to fall in during the inquisition, doesn't automatically equate to all those people being wrong either. Fear =/= god.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 7:22pm
But it isn't faith. First of all, and I'm being completely honest, I have only twice (of my 64 jumps) had hesitation going out the door. The first was jump #5, exciting a tail door aircraft. The hesitation wasn't jumping about out, it was making sure I didn't fall out (which would ruin the dive plan) as I stepped to the very edge of the floor for my exit. The second time was much later, again me being more fearful of screwing up the dive plan than jumping. Even my first pack job was a no-hesitation deal.I just went for it.

I have never once looked to intangible powers for my jumps. I go up, I relax on my way up by talking to other jumpers or listening to music, prep for the jump, and jump. I'm more afraid of dropping my helmet out the door than I am of jumping out.

Regarding the packers: It is their job to pack the canopies, they pack dozens of canopies a day, they are held to strict standards and are hired based on those standards. I check the rig each time after a packer hands it to me, I know the consistency of the openings they give me, and I report any of my concerns to the packer who handled my rig. I have enough proof in the quality of their work that you can NOT call it faith. There is plenty of evidence, judging by that experience and by our dropzone's pretty much spotless record on parachute openings, that the parachute will open properly if I pull in the proper position.

That is not faith. That is confidence in evidence. When enough evidence occurs of something, it can be known as a fact. It is a fact that a rig packed for me by the paid packers of Skydive DeLand will open properly if I am in a stable belly position upon opening.

If any such thing as faith exists in skydiving, it would be the result of haphazardly shoving the canopy into the bag and saying "it will open." That is a risk I do not take.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 7:38pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Tolgak: Technically you are correct, but my little "Hail Mary's" and crossing myself helped the mind during these combat situations, and when you are flying into combat, rounds striking the helicopter, 15 seconds till skids down, do not tell me a little prayer will not be filling your mind, "Please god, don't let me get hit." If you say No I will not be praying, you are lying and never expierienced a true stressfull life or death situation.


I am not doubting that religious rituals have no mental benefit to those who seek comfort in them. I'm stating that the words you say will not affect your outcome. If a bullet is headed your way, crossing yourself wont change its trajectory, it wont put up a magic shield in front of you, it wont make your body armour any more effective.

BTW, I have been in several true life or death situations. I have nearly bled to death (and have the scars to prove it). I have nearly suffocated due to an aspirin allergy attack. I have had a parachute (poorly packed by me) refuse to open, on a rig with no automatic activation device, with a reserve handle that took me 4 seconds to get a grip on, to eventually open at about 1000 feet. These events span from my most religious condition to a few months ago, as a non-believing, non-religious person. Not once, from the onset to the aftermaths of those situations, when I genuinely thought it was the end, did I call out to a deity.

I went screaming and yelling to my mom and relatives, I gestured to my parents call an ambulance, I cut away the malfunction and pulled the reserve. The little reflection I had on those situations consisted of little more than "I'd better not do that again."

I don't seek comfort in the protection of what I know doesn't have an effect on my life. In dire situations, I look for solutions first and comfort last. The comfort comes in the form of my personal thoughts, desire to live, and companionship of other people (who, unlike the god you claim exists, can talk back to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 7:40pm
I have had the "cigar roll" and did the 2 second peddle drill before I cut it loose and went for the reserve. Chute was packed by a reputable rigger with thousands of successful packings. Mr. Murphy is out there.

Stepping out of a door at 30,000ft on a HALO is a true act of faith, ask any HALO jumpers on that fact and on how many thousands of things that can go wrong no matter how many times you have checked your and your buddies equipment. It was comman practice before a drop for believers and atheists alike to huddle up, arms on shoulders in a troop circle and ask Saint Michael for a successfull drop and full canopy deployment.

And one day stop by Ft Benning and go to the bleachers and watch jump one. You can hear the screaming and other statements 1200ft below the roar of the 130's and C-7's. Many with the word "God" in them.

Warriors throughout history have asked for divine guidance and protection. Ask any veteran about his most terrifying moment in combat and was there a prayer or act of faith before, during, and after the action.
"We Advance for God and Country, Have Faith in your Country and in Our God almighty and we will meet at the top of the hill or at the gates of Heaven, both shall mean victory." Annonomous, posted by paper and held by a bayonet stuck in a sandbag along with a wedding ring on pommel hook in one of the Austrailian Trenches at Galopoli.
Soldiers are by nature are a religious lot in times of stress and battle, there are no atheists in a foxhole.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 7:47pm
Again, I am not arguing that people don't seek comfort in religious rituals. I'm saying that I never have. EDIT and that it's an ignorant lie to say that others are not the same way.

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Soldiers are by nature are a religious lot in times of stress and battle, there are no atheists in a foxhole.


I think you might want to read up on Pat Tillman's final words.


Edited by Tolgak - 23 October 2009 at 7:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 8:35pm
"Stop sniviling" is a motivational statement comman with US Army Rangers. Does not prove he was or was not a religious man.

“crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, ‘Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God’s not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ...”

Combat is the ultimate in stress, things are said that are never meant to be said, friends turn on friends, fear overcomes comman sense, stupidity rules the moment. What happened on that hill will never be known as the troops involved will forever try to keep that memory locked in a place never to open.

I have been there and done that, seen the worst in my fellow man, and the best, things were said that never should have been said, last words of promise to a dying comrade, name calling, motivational statements of color for clearity, memories I prefer to keep locked up myself. I may have been generalizing, but before a dangerous mission a few words by a Priest, Pastor, Rabbi, whoever will draw in even the non-believers.

I truely beleive that I am still here based on something that happened a long time ago and far far, away on a tiny un-named hilltop in Vietnam, overrun once, outnumbered, 4 of the 8 of us left alive, hours till daylight, wounded, looking into the eyes of those around me, Dave bleeding from multiple wounds, Jerry one eye covered with a bandage, blood streaming down his face and Steve both legs twisted at unatural angles, blood soaking the trousers, you could smell death a coppery smell and taste, bile rising in yout throat, and we all understood gave each other a final thumbs up and waited for the nest assault, sounds, explosions, gunfire, screams, last I remmeber is firing the last of my rounds into the darkness...........and I woke up in an evac hospital. That to me defies rational thought I prefer to believe as I do.

One of the reasons I am so hesitant to go back on the tour.....these memories until recently were locked tight in a place I never wanted open again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mod98commando Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 8:50pm
Wow, quite a few ridiculous things said since my last entry here. FE, you never cease to amaze. We really should turn these discussions into TV shows so we can at least make some money in the process of killing all this time LOL

So basically Atheists can't possibly be moral people because they don't believe in God yet there are Atheists around that are just as moral as religious people and sometimes more? As PP said, there is evidence that contradicts your claim that Atheists lack morality. One piece of evidence is speaking to you in this post. I am a very moral person and I do plenty of morally justified things every day. If you didn't know I was Atheist, you would probably consider me a traditional American Shocked

I think you are attributing the effects of bad parenting to Atheism just because the parents of improperly raised children happen to be Atheist sometimes. Atheist parents may not teach their children to believe in God but that doesn't prevent them from teaching morality, even the same morality that is taught in the bible. You're making a connection between two things that, based on the facts, don't seem to be connected in most cases. In my life I've seen plenty of people who were apparently raised with a weak sense of morality but as far as I know they were not Atheist at all. Most of the people where I live are Jewish and most of the rest are Christian. Within those two groups, I've seen plenty of people who go to church or temple and clearly were not raised properly based on how they behave. Does that mean that religious people lack morals? By your logic, it does.

Now, given my experience seeing religious people with bad parenting and your supposed experience seeing Atheists with bad parenting we can conclude that the only common attribute here is bad parenting and is likely to be a cause for the problems observed. Since we have evidence suggesting both religious and nonreligious people have this problem, neither one having it significantly more often than the other, we can conclude that religion (or lack thereof) is not the cause nor does it seem to have any correlation. So if you make this observation then you are justified in thinking that bad parenting is the problem. Actual verifiable data should be found before this is considered fact and preached to others as such though.
This is the logical process you should be following. Why? Because it makes sense and it works. You don't seem to have followed this process before you basically went and accused Atheists of being bad people.

It is the responsibility of the parents to teach their children morality and how to behave. Most religions include some sort of rules regarding how to conduct yourself with others but that doesn't mean you can't follow these rules without believing in that religion. And following those rules doesn't make you a believer in that religion either. You tend to think in absolutes so if something is even slightly similar to something else, you automatically equate the two. This is just foolish and unrealistic. That's the reason you come to such silly conclusions about society and everybody on the forum feels compelled to argue with you.

And the whole thing about miracles being proof of God's existence....ugh. We probably shouldn't go there because that could be a whole thread on its own. But since you did go there I can't resist saying that miracles don't prove crap. The miracle didn't whisper in your ear "God did this". How do you come to the conclusion that some greater being did that? How do you know it wasn't just luck? Strange things happen all the time without any explanation but they don't always work out to benefit those involved. Just because sometimes people benefit from miraculous situations does not mean that some greater being was behind it. If you want to believe that's what happened then fine but don't try to pass it off as fact. It's your belief and nothing more. If God left a footprint behind or dropped his wallet on his way out then you have some proof and you can argue that your belief is fact. Until then, there is no way to justify stating it as anything but a theory.

Religion provides easy answers to most of the why's and how's of life but that doesn't make any of it true. You may be content believing that God does all these inexplicable things but without any proof, many people refuse to believe it. Can you really blame them? In my opinion, life is basically an equation with an infinite number of unknowns. Each and every one of them determines the output but you can't possibly know what they all are and because of that, you can't predict or explain everything. I believe that things explained by science are the things where only some of those unknowns have a significant effect and that's why we can explain them. That's basically all there is to it. However, I can't prove this regardless of how much sense it makes to me so I don't tell other people that's how it is and that their view is all wrong. Many religious people, in my experience, don't seem to understand that concept. That is probably the main reason Atheists and religious people do not get along very well most of the time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2009 at 8:52pm
OS - accepting for the moment that there in fact "are no atheists in foxholes" - isn't that if anything an argument AGAINST the existence of a god?
 
(Not a very strong argument, but still)
 

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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