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    Posted: 27 July 2009 at 3:48pm
creating this to avoid thread hijacking of the socialized medicine thread.

quick recap of discusion so far

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

...we spend more per student than the western world, and we are far below the educational standards of many of industrialized world, so much for "public" government run schools, what makes you believe medical care under government control will be any differant.


Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

I have many, many theories on why the American public schools are not better than they are. Very worthy of another thread.

But that aside, consider what you just said: "the educational standards of [much of the] industrialized world". You are aware, I am sure, that these educational standards are brought about by government run school in those other industrialized countries - because every industrialized nation on Earth (and most non-industrialized nations) have public schools. I agree - our public schools are inferior to the public schools of other countries. But how is that an argument against government action?

But more on point: regardless of any relative inferiority of our schools, the objective truth is that our public schools provide a tremendous and invaluable service to the general populace, and it does so at a very reasonable price. Without our public schools, millions of Americans would go without even the most basic education, at great cost to our nation.


Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

Not to derail the thread, but I always thought a huge reason public schools are often so bad in the United States is due to schools being funded through districts rather than through the state. Obviously, a school in the rural, poor, southeast Appalachian region of Ohio is going to get way less funding than a school in an affluent suburb of Columbus. Lack of funds means old, dilapidated school buildings, and an overall poor environment for learning. If schools were funded on a statewide level, we could see huge improvements..


Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

That's number one on my list as well. Local funding for public schools is idiotic.


Originally posted by adrenalinejunky adrenalinejunky wrote:

perhaps partially - but i've been to both private and public schools - and the private ones i went to were even worse off as far as money is concerned then the public ones, yet still provided better education.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by adrenalinejunky adrenalinejunky wrote:

perhaps partially - but i've been to both private and public schools - and the private ones i went to were even worse off as far as money is concerned then the public ones, yet still provided better education.
 
 
I agree that there are clearly other factors at play regarding school quality.  I also am confident that there are many public schools that are better than many private schools.
 
But the local-heavy funding for US public schools is just an unnecessary aggravator.  If anything, schools in poor neighborhoods should have MORE funding, not less, to help overcome their other disadvantages.
 

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrenalinejunky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

Originally posted by adrenalinejunky adrenalinejunky wrote:

perhaps partially - but i've been to both private and public schools - and the private ones i went to were even worse off as far as money is concerned then the public ones, yet still provided better education.

 

 

I agree that there are clearly other factors at play regarding school quality.  I also am confident that there are many public schools that are better than many private schools.

 

But the local-heavy funding for US public schools is just an unnecessary aggravator.  If anything, schools in poor neighborhoods should have MORE funding, not less, to help overcome their other disadvantages.


 


i can agree with that - i've been in two different public school districts, one was in a poor area, and was a joke, the other was in a pretty good area, and was alright, but i don't think funding is going to be the magic bullet, alot of it has to do with standards and the curriculum in use as well, which i'd say is the single biggest difference between the public and private schools i've been to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 5:05pm
There is obviously a wide range in style and quality between various private schools - as there should be.  But the single unifying factor (they are private) is also the source of what I believe to be there greatest strength:  they can kick students out.

Any private can (and should) kick out truly disruptive elements - public schools have a much more difficult time doing so (and for good reason). 

This gives the private schools a tremendous advantage, simply in that they have a perfect tool for ensuring proper student behavior:  "behave or leave."  Public schools are limited to "behave or I will ask you to behave again later."  Kind of like a sternly worded letter from the UN.

But that is also kind of cheating, in that the disruptors also ought to get educated.  I am just not sure how.

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slackerr26 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

There is obviously a wide range in style and quality between various private schools - as there should be.  But the single unifying factor (they are private) is also the source of what I believe to be there greatest strength:  they can kick students out.

Any private can (and should) kick out truly disruptive elements - public schools have a much more difficult time doing so (and for good reason). 

This gives the private schools a tremendous advantage, simply in that they have a perfect tool for ensuring proper student behavior:  "behave or leave."  Public schools are limited to "behave or I will ask you to behave again later."  Kind of like a sternly worded letter from the UN.

But that is also kind of cheating, in that the disruptors also ought to get educated.  I am just not sure how.


I agree and disagree.

From my experience in public school, the two biggest reasons they do so poorly is because classes need to be held up for the students who don't get the material, and students just don't care.

I remember at graduation our principal gave her speech about how our school doesn't just manufacture high school graduates, and i was laughing in the back because that's EXACTLY what our school did, and all public schools do.  IIRC, if schools don't maintain a certain graduation rate, they loose funding.  That should not be the case at all.  In my school, teachers would have to go over topics and lessons forever simply because a handful of kids didn't care and didn't try.  In fact, most of them were smart enough to realize if they simply didn't care and then asked the teacher over and over again, their teachers would effectively do the assignment for them.  It was a joke.  What resulted was a group of the class almost delebretely holding up class, a small section who cared becoming completely bored and falling behind, and the rest of the class just not caring at all.

All my core classes my senior year were AP courses, not for the college credit or GPA boost, but because those were the only classes where the teachers had a specific timeline to teach everyone in and they didn't hold up as much.

I suppose though, the root of the problem is the lack of caring by the students. Kids go to school because they have to, not because they want to.  Many of them realize that they can easily cruise through High School without trying at all.  I still remember a month before graduation all the AP classes were asked to stay after school to tutor kids who would not graduate unless they took online courses. Some of them were genuinely trying, and I respected them for that, but the vast majority of them didn't want to be there and it turned into the volunteers taking their online courses for them.  It was almost a little offensive to be asked to help these kids while we were studying for AP exams and had been working as hard as we could throughout High School while they were the ones not doing anything at all.

Sometimes I think we should make public school optional, letting the students who want to learn come, and the students who don't will have to figure it out.  The way the system is now, we're wasint teachers and money on students who don't care.  Mind you, this isn't exactly aimmed at the entire US public educaion system, I realize if school was not mandatory, a large number of youth would be at much greater risk for drugs and gangs.  But does that mean that our public school system is supposed to be free babysitting?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bolt3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 6:10pm
In many cases, public schools are better than private schools.

New Jersey has some of the best public schools; and a lot of them.

Look in New York City, some of the best high schools are public: stuyvesant, brooklyn tech, etc.

It depends where you live, but I certainly do not think any less if someone went to public or private.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 6:33pm
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:


I agree and disagree.

From my experience in public school, the two biggest reasons they do so poorly is because classes need to be held up for the students who don't get the material, and students just don't care.


I guess I consider the students who just don't care to be part of the "behave or leave" issue.  I don't know that every private school student is necessarily more motivated that public school students, but if they are unable to at least fake it they are kicked out.

Now - again, not all private schools are the same.  I don't think your average Catholic school has a lot in common with a prep school, other than the "behave or leave" option.  And the minimum performance threshold could also vary significantly between various private schools.

But more to the point:


Quote
Sometimes I think we should make public school optional, letting the students who want to learn come, and the students who don't will have to figure it out.  The way the system is now, we're wasint teachers and money on students who don't care.  Mind you, this isn't exactly aimmed at the entire US public educaion system, I realize if school was not mandatory, a large number of youth would be at much greater risk for drugs and gangs.  But does that mean that our public school system is supposed to be free babysitting?


I know I have said this in earlier threads, but this is one point where I feel fairly strongly:  I think it is a serious flaw in the US public school system that we have 12 years of what is basically mandatory college prep studies, when in fact many HS graduates do not or should not go to college.  The public schools should prepare you for LIFE, not for college.  And if your life doesn't include college, then a big chunk of the curriculum is wasting everybody's time.

If you compare other educational systems around the world, you will see that many systems split students into different tracks much earlier than age 18.  In the British system it starts with the O-Levels and again with the A-Levels.  Other systems just have separate trade schools, or multiple-track options for students' election.

I think a big part of the reason why many students don't care is because (a) the material is too difficult for them, and (b) they know it is useless and irrelevant for them anyway.

It is hard (and perhaps arbitrary) to say where the line should be drawn, of course, but I believe that everybody would benefit if we stopped making future electricians and hospital orderlies take a HS curriculum better suited for a college English professor. 

Instead, teach a skill, a trade - or even just let them end school and start work.

Certainly I think that some amount of "general" education is necessary and worthwhile, but I think we have far overdone it in the US.


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Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

But the local-heavy funding for US public schools is just an unnecessary aggravator.  If anything, schools in poor neighborhoods should have MORE funding, not less, to help overcome their other disadvantages. 
  So providing them with income via welfare, free healthcare, transportation to special ed classes for their crack induced ADD disorder kids, free daycare/preschool to try and get them up to normal speed, free and reduced lunches, waiving of school fees, government assisted housing where they pay in some cases $1.00 per month and free food via WIC isn't enough?  We now have to spend more on them than we do ourselves for schooling when we are the ones making the money? Oh, all the while paying little or no taxes. Really? At what point is enough, enough?
 
With all this grandiosity with my money, I would truly like to know what percentage of your income do you donate to charity each year? How many hours do you volunteer a year? I am guessing from your veiwpoints that you don't attend church, so not contributing there. If you're dying to give money out, why not sit down tonight, figure out which underfunded local school district you want to help and start writing some checks. I am sure they can use new books and schools supplies.
 
And as far as kicking kids out, yeah they can. Behavior challenged kids can be taken out of the local schools and sent to others. If they continue to screw up, they are sent to a special school that is essentially a daycare. If they continue to screw up, they can in fact be booted out especially once they hit their teens.


Edited by oldpbnoob - 27 July 2009 at 6:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote *Stealth* Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 6:38pm
you're all overlooking how poorly the schools tend to spend their budgets as well...

... My mom was a public school teacher, don't even get me started on some of the crap they bought instead of updating school curriculums or the like.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by *Stealth* *Stealth* wrote:

you're all overlooking how poorly the schools tend to spend their budgets as well...

... My mom was a public school teacher, don't even get me started on some of the crap they bought instead of updating school curriculums or the like.
  Or how about when the district was actually able to afford a new reading curriculum, but the teachers union voted it down in favor of keeping the 15 year old books and system they had in place because the older teachers didn't want to change? Truth. They turned down new books, software, the whole 9 yards worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $20k simply because they didn't want to. Principals had 0% say about it and unless the school board wanted to push it and risk a strike.... And this is a district that ranks fairly high in the area. Awesome! Hey, but at least they were being cost effective!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 7:00pm
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

But the local-heavy funding for US public schools is just an unnecessary aggravator.

I find myself in agreement with this.  Probably the one increase in federal tax I would support (if it was accompanied by the cessation of local taxes for the same purpose) would be in this area.  (I.e. I would not have a problem with federal funding replacing local funding for schools.) I would also be in favor of supporting public schools for higher achievers that meet the standards to attend them and a higher per student funding for such schools.

If anything, schools in poor neighborhoods should have MORE funding, not less, to help overcome their other disadvantages.

I disagree here.  Such funding should be dispersed essentially equally on a per student basis.


Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:



This gives the private schools a tremendous advantage, simply in that they have a perfect tool for ensuring proper student behavior:  "behave or leave."  Public schools are limited to "behave or I will ask you to behave again later."  Kind of like a sternly worded letter from the UN.

Okay, the bolded part just cracked me up.

But that is also kind of cheating, in that the disruptors also ought to get educated.  I am just not sure how.

Me either, but it should probably involve shock collars and a big stick.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 7:14pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

But the local-heavy funding for US public schools is just an unnecessary aggravator.  If anything, schools in poor neighborhoods should have MORE funding, not less, to help overcome their other disadvantages. 
  So providing them with income via welfare, free healthcare, transportation to special ed classes for their crack induced ADD disorder kids, free daycare/preschool to try and get them up to normal speed, free and reduced lunches, waiving of school fees, government assisted housing where they pay in some cases $1.00 per month and free food via WIC isn't enough?  We now have to spend more on them than we do ourselves for schooling when we are the ones making the money? Oh, all the while paying little or no taxes. Really? At what point is enough, enough?


Who are these "them" people that you are so angry with?

Allow me to use my current locale as a specific example: 

I live in a nice neighborhood.  Not super-high-end, but fairly nice.  The public schools, funded largely by local taxes, are among the best in the state.  Now, as it turns out, due to various silly gerrymandering efforts over the years, I am not in that school district.  Instead, I am in a distinctly inferior public school district.

This inferior school district may be inferior for many reasons, but one reason is almost certainly funding.  Where the good school district is populated heavily by well-educated folks with high incomes, the inferior district contains an old manufacturing town.  As a result, the population is mostly blue-collar workers with lower incomes.  Not a whole of lot AFDC moms there, as far as I know, and I think there is actually more drugs and ADD in the good schools than in the inferior schools.

So, basically, you have two groups of hard-working Americans - yet one group is getting an inferior education.  So inferior, in fact, that my child went to private school rather than go to the inferior public school.  Had our house been two blocks over, he would have attended the good public school instead.

And yeah - I think that is wrong.

But here's the rub, again:  I think this is wrong mostly because it is STUPID.  It is inefficient.  Public education represents a tremendous investment in our most valuable asset:  our people.  If we didn't have public education, we would never have become the industrial powerhouse that we are.  Public education is a central driver of our success.  And I would like my INVESTMENT dollars to be spent in the most efficient fashion possible.  In my local context, that means that the Waukesha School District could use some more cash, at the expense of the Elmbrook School District.  Absolutely.

It isn't about "giving" money way - this isn't charity, but purely self-interested investment management.



 
Quote With all this grandiosity with my money, I would truly like to know what percentage of your income do you donate to charity each year? How many hours do you volunteer a year? I am guessing from your veiwpoints that you don't attend church, so not contributing there. If you're dying to give money out, why not sit down tonight, figure out which underfunded local school district you want to help and start writing some checks. I am sure they can use new books and schools supplies.


Why do people always doubt my motivations?

But since you asked:

1.  I donate a significant amount to charities every year, both cash and in kind.  I hardly ever turn down a cold call from a charity, and there are endless charitable requests around the office as well.  My professional partnership also donates a significant amount of money to various charities before it even gets to me. 

2.  I have never had a garage sale, and only on rare occasions do I post anything for sale on Craigslist or Ebay.  Instead, we donate everything.  Right no, in my garage, are eight large boxes full of accumulated baby clothes and baby gear, due to be picked up by the Purple Heart Foundation Wednesday morning.

3.  The above, however, pales in comparison to the value of the professional time I donate each year.  I spend hours and hours providing free legal advice to various people at no charge, and with no expectation of future gain. 

4.  I have also served on the board of various trade organizations social organizations over the years, and occasionally been an active officer.  These groups suck up vast amounts of time, again for no personal or professional gain.  In connection with some of those, I have specifically been involved in scholarship committees, sorting through scholarship applications for our various scholarships, which are in part need-based.  I also make presentations at local schools for Junior Achievement.  For a little while I was actively involved in running the local Junior Achievement, but had to quit because of time constraints.

5.  I occasionally get involved in specific projects as well.  After the Asian tsunami a few years back, for instance, I spearheaded a local fund-raising effort to funnel cash to a Sri Lankan charity.  I also spent several weekends packing stuff in boxes to send to Sri Lanka, and cajoling airlines to provide fee shipping.

6.  I am on lists for all of my prior schools as being available for candidate interviews, student mentoring, and career advice.  And believe me - they call.

7.  Here in WI, I can actually check a box on my state tax return to direct part of my taxes to a specific school district.  And even as we keep applying to get into Elmbrook public schools, I have always checked the box for Waukesha instead - a school my children will never attend.  I figure they could use the money better.

8.  I do, as I turn out, attend church on a regular basis.  I have been a little remiss this month, but otherwise pretty much every Sunday for the 11:00 am service.  I put some cash in the collection, but not much.  This church is well-funded enough as it is. 

Would you like to impugn my character some more?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

Would you like to impugn my character some more?


I'm bored and my back hurts . . . is this offer open to everyone or just the poster you were responding to?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

But the local-heavy funding for US public schools is just an unnecessary aggravator.


I find myself in agreement with this.  Probably the one increase in federal tax I would support (if it was accompanied by the cessation of local taxes for the same purpose) would be in this area.  (I.e. I would not have a problem with federal funding replacing local funding for schools.) I would also be in favor of supporting public schools for higher achievers that meet the standards to attend them and a higher per student funding for such schools.


That's kind of where I am right now as well.  I don't know that we need to increase the total funding, just allocate it better.


Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by PP PP wrote:

If anything, schools in poor neighborhoods should have MORE funding, not less, to help overcome their other disadvantages.


I disagree here.  Such funding should be dispersed essentially equally on a per student basis.


I should highlight the "if anything" part.  My default position is also even distribution.  But I would be open to discussing additional funds for underperforming schools.
 

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:



But that is also kind of cheating, in that the disruptors also ought to get educated.  I am just not sure how.


Me either, but it should probably involve shock collars and a big stick.


Very tempting.  And even if it didn't work it would be amusing.



Edited by Peter Parker - 27 July 2009 at 7:20pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 7:22pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

[QUOTE=Peter Parker]But the local-heavy funding for US public schools is just an unnecessary aggravator.

I find myself in agreement with this.  Probably the one increase in federal tax I would support (if it was accompanied by the cessation of local taxes for the same purpose) would be in this area.  (I.e. I would not have a problem with federal funding replacing local funding for schools.) I would also be in favor of supporting public schools for higher achievers that meet the standards to attend them and a higher per student funding for such schools.

If anything, schools in poor neighborhoods should have MORE funding, not less, to help overcome their other disadvantages.

I disagree here.  Such funding should be dispersed essentially equally on a per student basis.
I agree on federal funding being equally distributed equally per student, but not so much on increasing federal funding vs local funding. Not sure how it works elsewhere, but here we have local school levys that pay for not only school operating expenses, but also for such things as new school facilities. These levies are voted on every few years. In our case, they typically pass with little question, but we often see districts around us having to go in several times to get them passed. Ironically, we are not a wealthy school district, yet we rarely have problems renewing our levies, nor do we have problems adding addtional ones to pay for improvements. 3 years ago, we passed on the second try a levy to match state funding requirements that gained us over $20 mil in state funding to build a new K-12 facility. If local control were taken away, we most likely would never have had such a chance. Why should we have to get the same as everyone else if we are willing to pay a higher tax to improve our schools? Ironically, the "wealthy" school district had to submit their levy 3 times before getting it passed on the 4th try, at a lower per mil rate than our "podunk" district did.  Maybe it's because all the rich kids in that district go to private school already.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

But the local-heavy funding for US public schools is just an unnecessary aggravator.  If anything, schools in poor neighborhoods should have MORE funding, not less, to help overcome their other disadvantages. 
  So providing them with income via welfare, free healthcare, transportation to special ed classes for their crack induced ADD disorder kids, free daycare/preschool to try and get them up to normal speed, free and reduced lunches, waiving of school fees, government assisted housing where they pay in some cases $1.00 per month and free food via WIC isn't enough?  We now have to spend more on them than we do ourselves for schooling when we are the ones making the money? Oh, all the while paying little or no taxes. Really? At what point is enough, enough?


Who are these "them" people that you are so angry with? 
  Exactly the people I described above. Next time on your way through NW Ohio, drop by and I'll take you by the 'stay at home mom's" with the 3-5 kids each that I am supporting without the fun part. Come around mid day though, as they sleep until noon and are too drunk by dinner timen to be able to get a good looksy at. Bring some Basics and Boones Farm and maybe we can coaxe them out into the daylight... Oh wait, we can't do that because we are both busy working to pay for their life of leisure. 
 
Yes it makes me angry, especially when they come into the school and give my wife crap about why their pin worm having, lice infected kids can't stay at school or spend the day in the nurses office instead of having to go home. Not like they actually have freaking jobs or anything else to do. Maybe if they would spend $10 on disinfectant and soap or even condoms instead of smokes, the situation wouldn't exist in the first place.
 
As for impugning your character, perhaps I stand corrected. If you genuinely donate that high of a percentage of your income, awesome keep it up. Now granted, I was interested strictly in cash spent out of your pocket, not corporate donations in order to get tax credits, but we won't quibble. We donate all of our kids clothing as well, but it is usually pretty worse for wear by the time 3 kids get done with them :)
 
Mack, if you are bored, you can take a whack at my character if you'd like. I like a good roast.
 
 


Edited by oldpbnoob - 27 July 2009 at 7:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cdacda13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 8:21pm
I don't think funding is the problem for education. Its the time off. Our school year is significantly shorter then countries who do better than us in testing. (I'm should we could also argue the value of standardized testing, but lets leave that one alone.) In Japan, the students have only 50 days off a year. In America, students have around 140-150 days off.
Tests show that students from poor income households actually out learn students from higher income households during the school year. The problem is the summer off, higher income children retain more information and learn throughout  the summer.

So, extend the school year.


Edited by cdacda13 - 27 July 2009 at 8:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 8:25pm
Another reason "public" schools are failing in the US. Taking away the parents right to know what his/her child is up to, but still legally holding the parent finacially responsible.
http://wcbstv.com/local/port.chester.high.2.1103259.html
just one of many examples. Forcing a confrontation between student and parent is not a way to facilitate knowledge. They may not be able to read or write when the schools are done with them, but they will know how to strip thier parents of parental rights, and maintain a control over thier parents.
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