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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrenalinejunky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 8:51pm
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:


I know I have said this in earlier threads, but this is one point where I feel fairly strongly: I think it is a serious flaw in the US public school system that we have 12 years of what is basically mandatory college prep studies, when in fact many HS graduates do not or should not go to college. The public schools should prepare you for LIFE, not for college. And if your life doesn't include college, then a big chunk of the curriculum is wasting everybody's time.If you compare other educational systems around the world, you will see that many systems split students into different tracks much earlier than age 18. In the British system it starts with the O-Levels and again with the A-Levels. Other systems just have separate trade schools, or multiple-track options for students' election.I think a big part of the reason why many students don't care is because (a) the material is too difficult for them, and (b) they know it is useless and irrelevant for them anyway.It is hard (and perhaps arbitrary) to say where the line should be drawn, of course, but I believe that everybody would benefit if we stopped making future electricians and hospital orderlies take a HS curriculum better suited for a college English professor. Instead, teach a skill, a trade - or even just let them end school and start work.Certainly I think that some amount of "general" education is necessary and worthwhile, but I think we have far overdone it in the US.


completely agree on that point...

Originally posted by cdacda13 cdacda13 wrote:


I don't think funding is the problem for education. Its the time off. Our school year is significantly shorter then countries who do better than us in testing. (I'm should we could also argue the value of standardized testing, but lets leave that one alone.) In Japan, the students have only 50 days off a year. In America, students have around 140-150 days off. Tests show that students from poor income households actually out learn students from higher income households during the school year. The problem is the summer off, higher income children retain more information and learn throughout the summer. So, extend the school year.


there are also other ways of dealing with this issue as well - such as a school schedule that has several shorter breaks rather then one long break over the summer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cdacda13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 9:13pm
Originally posted by adrenalinejunky adrenalinejunky wrote:


there are also other ways of dealing with this issue as well - such as a school schedule that has several shorter breaks rather then one long break over the summer.

Just to add some real numbers to my post. The US school year is 180 days long. South Korean schools', 220. The Japanese schools' year 243.
Aren't these the countries that we are trying to catch up to in regards to education? Cut down the summer break, or have summers hours for school.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 9:18pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:


Who are these "them" people that you are so angry with? 
  Exactly the people I described above. Next time on your way through NW Ohio, drop by and I'll take you by the 'stay at home mom's" with the 3-5 kids each that I am supporting without the fun part.


Rather than debate the merits of whether we ought to provide better education for "those people," I will choose the much easier route:

Those people are irrelevant.

They are irrelevant to this discussion because they are such a small portion of the American population.

They are irrelevant because even without them, there is drastic difference in quality of public schools from state to state, from county to county, and, as in my case, literally from street to street.  My school district is filled with hard-working people, not welfare mothers.  Yet the school is bad enough that I am paying through my nose for private school.  Bad enough that we thought about selling our house just to move three blocks East.

Moreover, they are irrelevant because THEY AREN'T THE ONES GOING TO SCHOOL.  Their children are going to school, not the welfare cases.  It must be cold in your world indeed for you to declare a child unworthy of a good education simply because you disapprove of her mother's behavior.


 
Quote
As for impugning your character, perhaps I stand corrected. If you genuinely donate that high of a percentage of your income, awesome keep it up. Now granted, I was interested strictly in cash spent out of your pocket, not corporate donations in order to get tax credits, but we won't quibble. We donate all of our kids clothing as well, but it is usually pretty worse for wear by the time 3 kids get done with them :)
 


Worst.Apology.Ever.




Edited by Peter Parker - 27 July 2009 at 11:03pm

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 9:18pm
The "Magnet" school experiment was tried where students were "tracked" into college prep, technical, and general education paths. The uproar from parents that thier son/daughter needed to go to college destined that system to failure. I was in the GenEd track, and still managed to survive with quite a few life skills, wherein several of my college grad friends have some serious personal skill issues. And my foray into the Community College world, surrounded by high school "grads" that could not read nor write at a college level. And heaven forbid you ask for a 6 page double spaced "term" paper, or give a test without a study guide (a perfectly good guide was available, it's called a textbook), last I checked all the material covered and more was in the textbook, trick was you had to be able to read it.

Right now the transportation industry, auto mechanic, HVAC, and other trades are in demand, but little Johnny/Mary wants his/her degree and a $60K M-F 8-5 job out of the box, even though they could not properly prepare a resume nor prepare for an interview, they feel they are entitled only with thier little degree in hand for the job.

I filled management positions in Transportation (Dispatcher, Dispatcher Supervisor, Safety Supervisor, Driver Simulator Manager and Accident Investigation Supervisor on site) with job skills learned the hard way, by actual expierience, and could portray that expierience with examples that college grads simply did not have, or could communicate with the interviewer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 10:12pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

The "Magnet" school experiment was tried where students were "tracked" into college prep, technical, and general education paths. The uproar from parents that thier son/daughter needed to go to college destined that system to failure.
So the parents are at issue with wanting the best for their little princesses because they have an unrealistic view of their child's place in the world? I'll allow that.
Quote I was in the GenEd track, and still managed to survive with quite a few life skills, wherein several of my college grad friends have some serious personal skill issues.
College doesn't teach basic human interaction (at least non business majors). There is a big difference between book smarts and common sense. I've dealt with people who are skilled in one but deficient in another and people who had a good mixture of both qualities.
Quote And my foray into the Community College world, surrounded by high school "grads" that could not read nor write at a college level. And heaven forbid you ask for a 6 page double spaced "term" paper, or give a test without a study guide (a perfectly good guide was available, it's called a textbook), last I checked all the material covered and more was in the textbook, trick was you had to be able to read it.
I have also dealt with the type of college student you describe. It is actually the main reason behind my late in the game major switch. I felt that I was actually in a "college learning environment" as I had always imagined it. Changed to a more demanding major with the lowest average GPA on campus but the hardest working, and most dedicated students around. We wrote our 20+ page papers, we did our timed long essay tests by hand in 50 minutes and we never once saw a powerpoint, an outline or a study guide, it just didn't happen, the professors just expected more out of you and it caused all of us to work harder. Also, keep in mind your sample is slightly skewed, you're dealing with recent HS grads attending a community college rather than a conventional university. This means that either they (more than likely but not necessarily) lacked the requirements to get into a real university and are taking classes to boost their standing. Or, they just graduated from HS and have no idea what they want to do and the were always told, like I was, that you should go to college because high school only prepares you for college and college will prepare you for a career.
Quote
Right now the transportation industry, auto mechanic, HVAC, and other trades are in demand, but little Johnny/Mary wants his/her degree and a $60K M-F 8-5 job out of the box, even though they could not properly prepare a resume nor prepare for an interview, they feel they are entitled only with thier little degree in hand for the job.
Isn't that problem caused more by the parents you described in the beginning of your post who feel that blue collar work is beneath their little angel? As a recent grad of both HS and College I can testify just how hard they push higher education on youth. I recall on many occasions being told that HS is there to prepare you for college, not for the real world. This was usually stated after one of the troublemakers argued that pre calculus was useless for them to learn because they weren't going to go on to teach math or whatever the argument of the day was. Instead faculty and parents push "if you can dream it you can do it" mantra on students and they buy it. They tell them all they have to do is get a college education....right. The reality is that this focus on high education is keeping us back from teaching hard skills that are useful in pretty much any industry; problem solving, communication, actual logical reasoning.

As a positive note for my generation, the best thing that our parents generation did push upon us was the focus on teams and teamwork. I guarantee you that in 20 years organizations will be much more efficient at getting large projects done due to our generations familiarity with doing large group projects from an early age from a non hierarchical structure.
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I filled management positions in Transportation (Dispatcher, Dispatcher Supervisor, Safety Supervisor, Driver Simulator Manager and Accident Investigation Supervisor on site) with job skills learned the hard way, by actual expierience, and could portray that expierience with examples that college grads simply did not have, or could communicate with the interviewer.
The problem with this is companies no longer want to do the in house training required for good mid level staff to function, they want their workers already fully trained and ready to go with all the necessary skills. Skills that really aren't taught on an academic level.

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 10:44pm
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:


Those people are irrelevant.

They are irrelevant to this discussion because they are such a small portion of the American population.
It's about 10% in our school district.  The more urban district about 10 miles away is higher from what I have read.  Nearly without fail a vastly disproportionate percentage of behavior problems, learning disability problems, etc draw from this group. Nearly 80% of the kiids in special ed qualify.
 
Originally posted by PP PP wrote:

They are irrelevant because even without them, there is drastic difference in quality of public schools from state to state, from county to county, and, as in my case, literally from street to street.  My school district is filled with hard-working people, not welfare mothers.  Yet the school is bad enough that I am paying through my nose for private school.  Bad enough that we thought about selling our house just to move three blocks East.
That is unfortunate, but which came first, the chicken or the egg? Is the school district bad, because the capabilities of the kids are hampered by their environment? Or are the kids not capable period? If you put them in a better school would they thrive? Once you take them out of the better school and they go back home, what happens? This goes in line with what was said earlier about retention. Honestly, my kid is smart. Not be pompous, but both of her parents are smart (at least that's what my grades and testing showed throughout school) Short of being in an environment where she was distracted from learning, she would do well wherever she was. Not all kids are capable. Now who creates that environment? If we throw millions of additional dollars to those schools will it really help? I have seen brand new schools built in crappy neighborhoods, and do the students rejoice and treat it with pride? No, they vandalize it and make it look like crap. I have also been in the situation where I wasn't in a school system I liked. And we moved.  I also went to a school that sucked when I was in elementary, but you know what, I did alright. I had a very supporting mother, who cared about what I did and spent the time to help me with my homework and make sure I knew what I was doing.  Spend millions of dollars improving schools, but if the kids do not have the support system they need when they get home, we might as well throw the money in the garbage.
Originally posted by PP PP wrote:

Moreover, they are irrelevant because THEY AREN'T THE ONES GOING TO SCHOOL.  Their children are going to school, not the welfare cases.  It must be cold in your world indeed for you to declare a child unworthy of a good education simply because you disapprove of her mother's behavior.
I once spoke with a principal that said by the third grade he could tell you which kids were going to make it and which ones weren't. And before you say it, it saddened him. To watch bright beautiful children full of life and thirst to learn slowly, but surely slide down the wrong path, most of which either didn't graduate or graduated by the skin of their teeth. Perhaps the money would be better spent on parenting classes. I watch these same kids as a coach and see what he is saying. Short of taking these kids away from their parents, they are doomed. It may sound cold, but yeah, I would rather see the money spent on kids that have a chance.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 11:44pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

Moreover, they are irrelevant because THEY AREN'T THE ONES GOING TO SCHOOL.  Their children are going to school, not the welfare cases.  It must be cold in your world indeed for you to declare a child unworthy of a good education simply because you disapprove of her mother's behavior.


 I once spoke with a principal that said by the third grade he could tell you which kids were going to make it and which ones weren't. And before you say it, it saddened him. To watch bright beautiful children full of life and thirst to learn slowly, but surely slide down the wrong path, most of which either didn't graduate or graduated by the skin of their teeth. Perhaps the money would be better spent on parenting classes. I watch these same kids as a coach and see what he is saying. Short of taking these kids away from their parents, they are doomed. It may sound cold, but yeah, I would rather see the money spent on kids that have a chance.


Originally posted by Brooks & Dunn Brooks & Dunn wrote:


Sun coming up over New York City
School bus driver in a traffic jam
Starin' at the faces in her rearview mirror
Looking at the promise of the Promised Land
One kid dreams of fame and fortune
One kid helps pay the rent
One could end up going to prison
One just might be president *

Only in America
Dreaming in red, white and blue
Only in America
Where we dream as big as we want to
We all get a chance **
Everybody gets to dance ***
Only in America

Sun going down on an La. freeway
Newlyweds in the back of a limousine
A welder's son and a banker's daughter
All they want is everything
She came out here to be an actress
He was the singer in a band
They just might go back to Oklahoma
And talk about the stars they could have been

Only in America
Where we dream in red, white and blue
Only in America
Where we dream as big as we want to
We all get a chance
Everybody gets to dance
Only in America

Yeah only in America
Where we dream in red, white and blue
Yeah we dream as big as we want to ****


* Certain restrictions may apply.  "President" option only available in combination with "Good Mother" (sold separately; available for sale only to select customers), and also requires that purchaser possesses no more than two (2) copies of "Shiftless Friend," unless the purchaser has won the "Funding From Supportive Charity" sweepstakes.  If "President" is not available, "Going to Prison" will be substituted at no extra charge.

** "A Chance" is not a representation of an actual reasonable chance for a positive outcome.  The "Chance" product is strictly for decoration and display, and is not intended for actual use.  Any attempt at use will have no result.  Actual positive outcomes determined separately.

*** The proximity of "everybody gets to dance" to "Chance" product is entirely coincidental and does not imply or create a promise of anything more than an opportunity to participate in actual dancing.

**** "Dream" product has been available free of charge since 1963.  There are two separate collections of "dream.  The "Dreams of My Mother Whom I Love Dearly But Who Is Apparently Not A Good Enough Mother For The Deciders To Buy Textbooks For My School That Aren't From 1987" collection can be had in any of the following flavors:  False Hope, Delusion, Stringed Along, Dashed Aspiration, Sucker, and Pipe.  The "Birthright Deam" collection features the following exciting flavors:  Expectation, Entitlement, Smug, Freudian, and Jeannie.  "Birthright Dream" collection only available to customers who have previously purchased at least one "Good Mother."




Edited by Peter Parker - 27 July 2009 at 11:45pm

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 11:51pm
Can I get it in eggshell? 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2009 at 12:09am

Originally posted by PP PP wrote:

Some sappy country crap about how America is the promise land and anybody can do anything
  What a load of delusion.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2009 at 12:30am
Originally posted by Some Dead Guy Some Dead Guy wrote:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal*, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.** That to secure these rights***, Governments are instituted among Men
 
* Excepting, of course, those of inferior birth, who are themselves inferior to those of noble birth.  Sins of the mother and all that.
 
** This pursuit to be be aided and supported by government in a degree directly proportional to the nobility of birth of the individual in question.
 
*** Correction:  "for those of noble birth" erroneously omitted.  Ed.
 
 

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2009 at 12:49am
Originally posted by That Same Dead Guy That Same Dead Guy wrote:

If the children . . . are untaught, their ignorance and vices will in future life cost us much dearer in their consequences, than it would have done, in their correction, by a good education.
 
...
 
A system of general education, which shall reach every description of our citizens from the richest to the poorest, as it was the earliest, so will it be the latest of all the public concerns in which I shall permit myself to take an interest.

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Originally posted by Cracked out Ho Cracked out Ho wrote:

I believe that children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be

Everybody searching for a hero
People need someone to look up to
I never found anyone to fulfill my needs
A lonely place to be
So I learned to depend on me

I decided long ago
Never to walk in anyone's shadows
If I fail, if I succeed
At least I will live as I believe
No matter what they take from me
They can't take away my dignity

Chorus:
Because the greatest love of all
Is happening to me
I found the greatest love of all
Inside of me
The greatest love of all
Is easy to achieve
Learning to love yourself
It is the greatest love of all

I believe the children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be

And I decided long ago
Never to walk in anyone's shadows
If I fail, if I succeed
At least I will live as I believe
No matter what they take from me
They can't take away my dignity

Chorus:
Because the greatest love of all
Is happening to me
I found the greatest love of all
Inside of me
The greatest love of all
Is easy to achieve
Learning to love yourself
It is the greatest love of all

And if by chance, that special place
That you've been dreaming of
Leads you to a lonely place
Find your strength in love

Can I play too?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2009 at 9:42am
Example- The NYS Public School down the road, a K-12 school, @60% of students from single parent homes, less than 30% continue on to college of any type, less than 50% of students actually follow through and graduate 12th grade. Considered one of the poorest performers in central NY. But one of the highest paid administrators, and lowest paid average teacher salary structure in central NY. Researching due to teen-age Step-daughter coming into area in Spring, considering the private Catholic School, a highly rated almost 90% grad rate, <50% SUNY applications accepted. Less funded than the public model right down the road and yet a better performer.

At home Lincoln High, a more inner city school outperforms the more suburban area schools. Income has a lot to due with it, the "entitled" Gen-X'rs sending thier kids to the suburban schools demand "A's" for thier little kidlets from the faculty, regardless of actual student performance, if less than an "A" it is the schools fault not thier kids. And the drug problems are higher in Lincoln Southwest, one of the more affluent schools than the inner city Lincoln High. Seriously considering step-daughter finishes up at Lincoln High. Momma and step-daughter school year in Lincoln, and summer in NY.

My last three all went to Catholic Schools simply for the preparation for life and college. Fremont High in NE, was almost dead last in performance statewide and Bergan Catholic right down the road was in the top 3 statewide in private school performance. Again parental involvment and a set of standards higher than the public school system.

The dynamics of Public schools are not solely a funding issue, it is purely a parental disconnect from schools and student. We have dumped money by boatloads into public schools and the mismanagement and bravo sierra social engineering experiments have seriously degraded the Public Schools. My old PS from NYC is still in one of the poorest areas, looks like crap, yet the civic pride in thier community school demands performance from the staff, for the lower funding available. And parents are involved, volunteer hall monitors and peer motivation, as compared to actual NYPD security. The population has a lot to due with it, changed from a predominant WASP community of the 50's-60's to a oriental/Indian (from India) community, and the parental "honor" system from the homeland and multi-generational residents clearly shows.

Get the Teachers Unions out of the way, merit pay as compared to tenure, demand a return to life preparation and less social engineering, teach the basics first, the ability to read and write then the rest will follow. If you were in a University office reviewing applications which would warrent more attention for admission, an "A" from a public school, or an "A" from a private Catholic School?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2009 at 9:53am
http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/21378

The first map.

Maybe we should look into this system?
/\ /\ \/ \/ < > < > B A START
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2009 at 10:03am
Originally posted by OS OS wrote:

Get the Teachers Unions out of the way, merit pay as compared to tenure, demand a return to life preparation and less social engineering, teach the basics first, the ability to read and write then the rest will follow.
Amen Brother! Stop teaching to the test as they are currently doing. My daughter has been reduced to tears several times while doing math homework. I step in to help her, show her how to do it and she tells me "we can't do it like that". We have to do this " Insert asinine New Math". When I stare blankly at her, she tells me they get in trouble if they don't do it the way they are taught.  Completely illogical way of teaching it, but since that's the way it is in the books, they must conform.  I have had to sit down, sift through how they are teaching it and figure out the logic. I can grasp the progression most of the time, and am able to explain it so that she gets it, but guarantee 90% or more of the other parents wouldn't have a clue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2009 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

The public schools should prepare you for LIFE . . .


I pretty much agreed with the entire post, but wanted to add the following related to the section I quoted:  The preparation for life should include mandatory financial management classes.  (And maybe a lecture explaining that once you live on your own it is unreasonable to expect mommy and daddy to continue cleaning up your messes.)

I saw so many young troops get into trouble because no one ever prepared them for real life issues such as keeping their living quarter sanitary or not spending more than they have.  (The old joke about "still having money because their are checks left in the checkbook" is based on fact.  I had quite a few troops I dealt with during my career that didn't get the concept of bank balances . . . and easy access to debit/credit cards only made the situation worse.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2009 at 12:33pm
Shouldn't your parents help prepare you for life?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2009 at 1:13pm
Yes, but sadly (based on personal observation) they don't necessarily seem to be doing so anymore.
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Fire in the disco

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2009 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Yes, but sadly (based on personal observation) they don't necessarily seem to be doing so anymore.

Meanwhile schools take the blame for not completely preparing kids to be adults.
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Has no impulse! control

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2009 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by High Voltage High Voltage wrote:

Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:

Yes, but sadly (based on personal observation) they don't necessarily seem to be doing so anymore.

Meanwhile schools take the blame for not completely preparing kids to be adults.


Which is unfair.  What schools should take the blame for is teaching people to pass tests as opposed to teaching people useful knowledge.  (Not saying that the knowledge isn't useful; just that the orientation towards test-passing renders the real world uses less obvious to students.)

Schools should also take the blame for replacing the distilling of knowledge with (in some cases) social engineering and political correctness.  While we're at it the school system should also be faulted for fostering/continuing a system where teachers jobs are based on tenure instead of competence.
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