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oldsoldier View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2009 at 7:08pm
Socialized medical systems work in smaller countries with populations of @70M and a very centralized population in urban areas (see europe), where travel is relativly easy to recieve care. Now try it in a country of 360M where the population is less concentrated. The urban centers will do fine, but the more rural areas will be worse off than today. Once the government can dictate funding and distribution of logistical needs the high population urban areas (see voting blocks) will recieve an advantage. And the more rural will be required to travel further to larger urban areas recieve care.

Downtown Nowhere,South Dakota will more than likely lose its doctor and clinic since funding will be directed to larger ratio areas such as Fargo. Look at the records of medical care and availability in the old Soviet Union, the urban areas had plenty of care providers and facilities, where some more rural areas had nothing but maybe a local old woman armed with traditional rural medicine. And what care available was tiered to the "Party Members" went the best, to the people went mediocre. But is was state funded, and free, just hope you did not live in rural Kazakh SSR.

One of my profesors at SCC was a 54 year old Russian immagrant who never saw a doctor till she got to University herself, as she was selectecd to study "art" and shipped off away from her home villiage at 19. Svetlana had some interesting stories of the socialist workers paradise. She never did replace the steel fillings or the steel teeth so provided by state dentistry, and she loved to show the work when the discussion got around to medical care in the old USSR.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2009 at 7:26pm
Did you just compare what Americas plan would be to the Soviet Union?
Que pasa?


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oldsoldier View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2009 at 7:58pm
Yes, large geographical area with vastly separated large urban areas. Or we could look at current PRC (China), again large geographical area, a larger population, and fewer but larger population centers. Rural China still relies on the local shamin or traditional herbal medicaine, since the availabilty of medical care is severaly limited in the hinter lands (and the people are less important to the Party). Or we could look at the liberal icon of Cuban healthcare (love the opening of "An American Carol".

Politically, divide potential personal electability by giving the larger voter base what it thinks it needs, and ignore the rest of the population. FDR started it, Obama and crew will perfect it.

Edited by oldsoldier - 28 July 2009 at 8:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2009 at 8:33pm
Nobody is suggesting that the government run health care facilities ala USSR or the United Kingdom. We our suggesting government funding for insurance used to pay for health care. Nobody here is suggesting the gov actually runs the hospitals.

Btw, it's been awhile since you used the logistics bomb in one of your posts. An OS classic.

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 July 2009 at 8:37pm
lol, OS is proving exactly my point from a page ago. Why is it SO hard for people to understand that the US wouldn't simply adopt an existing/ past system like the USSR. It's just stupid, and almost sad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2009 at 4:53pm
Tricare
Medicaid
Medicare


3 government run healthcare options. Need I even say how these are run?

Edited by Linus - 29 July 2009 at 4:54pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2009 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Tricare
Medicaid
Medicare


3 government run healthcare options. Need I even say how these are run?
 
Why yes, you do.
 

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2009 at 5:51pm
Well I'm just too damn lazy too, but anyone that has to deal with those 3 agencies on any sort of a regular basis hates it. Medicare and Medicaid are slow as hell to pay. On average, it's 6+ months, and the slightest thing out of place, they outright deny your claim. No "oh this is weird, mind fixing it"... straight up "No payment".




Medicare and Medicaid decide how much they will pay, and as such, dictate the pay of those who work for places that are primarily paid by those 2 agencies. Go ask a non-fire based EMT or Paramedic what the pays like, then ask their view on Medicare and Medicaid.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2009 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Well I'm just too damn lazy too
 
Uh huh.  Well, that just shot the argument that you didn't make out of the water...
 
 
 
Quote ... but anyone that has to deal with my healthcare insurance company on any sort of a regular basis hates it. They are slow as hell to pay. The slightest thing out of place, they outright deny your claim. No "oh this is weird, mind fixing it"... straight up "No payment".
 
Yeah - I hate that too.


Quote Medicare and Medicaid decide how much they will pay, and as such, dictate the pay of those who work for places that are primarily paid by those 2 agencies. Go ask a non-fire based EMT or Paramedic what the pays like, then ask their view on Medicare and Medicaid.
 
So - your complaint about these two government programs is that they are TOO EFFECTIVE at cutting costs?
 
Wow.  That is a damning criticism indeed.

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2009 at 6:03pm
How much experience do you have with either of the two?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2009 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

How much experience do you have with either of the two?
 
Why - did I say something wrong?  Did you not just criticize those entities for underpaying you?
 
 

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2009 at 6:20pm
What, I can't ask someones experience with a government run health system when they are ones that argue FOR government run health systems?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2009 at 6:26pm
All the above are wastefull and ineffective to the true needs of the patient/doctor relationship. Each has a very defined set of criteria not always available to the user, such as certian providers, and only certian medications dispensed. I dropped TriCare simply because it was more efficiant to use the VA system, no co-pays, no travel restrictions to recieve care, and the better of bad systems. My mother just recently past away and I am still dealing with the medicare mess. After acceptance to a designated secondary care facility (NE Center for Special Care, a neurology speciality care facility for post stroke care) Medicare now states the center is not on the "approved" listing, even with my authorization for NECSC admitance in hand, the claim was denied, and I am looking at a lengthy appeal process, legal fees and government beauracracy. And Medicare has still not payed the Albany Medical Center or Fox Hospital for her immediate stroke care, and I keep getting bills and threatening letters for collection processing.

Interesting reading and a classic case of government doublespeak: http://www.medicare.gov/

AARP Secondary coverage has already paid in full thier portion of the billings for all care recieved, and still tap dancing with Medicare.

Anytime the government gets involved it is pure job security to make any benifit recieved as difficult as possible to attain, and the denial of a claim ensures more government involvement in the form of appeals, and more government workers thrown into the mix. Keep them busy, or they do not have a job, so they will ensure that they protect thier little fiefdoms.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2009 at 6:27pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

What, I can't ask someones experience with a government run health system when they are ones that argue FOR government run health systems?
 
You are of course welcome to ask - although I don't think you would like the answer.
 
But, more specifically - what does it matter?  Facts are facts.  Particular personal experiences are required for some statements, but not for others.  My latest post certainly falls into the latter category.
 
Did you not just criticize Medicare for being too stingy in paying medical providers?
 

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2009 at 6:38pm
So you're telling me Medicare and Medicaid are well run organizations?



I never said they were stingy. I said they dictate what they pay, when they pay, and how they pay, which in turn hurts not only the companies expecting payment, but the employees that did the work. Now imagine this not happening just for SOME people, but every single person, at every single hospital, nursing home, ambulance company, fire department and long-term care facility.

Just because it 'saves money' does not mean it's efficient or run well. It's quite obvious to all those with regular dealings in it, that they are not.









PS-- GOod riddence http://emsresponder.com/features/article.jsp?id=10032&siteSection=24

Edited by Linus - 29 July 2009 at 6:38pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrenalinejunky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2009 at 6:44pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

So you're telling me Medicare and Medicaid are well run organizations?



I never said they were stingy. I said they dictate what they pay, when they pay, and how they pay


how exactly is that not stingy?

stin⋅gy1 [stin-jee] Show IPA
–adjective, -gi⋅er, -gi⋅est. 1.     reluctant to give or spend; not generous; **edited**ardly; penurious: He's a stingy old miser.
2.     scanty or meager: a stingy little income.

you pretty much just defined the word.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2009 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

So you're telling me Medicare and Medicaid are well run organizations?
 
I offer no opinion as to the managerial quality of either organization.


Quote I never said they were stingy. I said they dictate what they pay, when they pay, and how they pay, which in turn hurts not only the companies expecting payment, but the employees that did the work.
 
Sounds about right.  Kind of.
 
First off, I note that these programs are not there for the benefit of healthcare providers, but for the benefit of the patients.  EMT disgruntledness is not a particularly good measure of quality for a healthcare insurance program.
 
But, that said:
 
I think you will discover that Medicare pays in strict accordance with a very detailed schedule, both in terms of amount and timing/method of payment.  There are obviously efficiency issues resulting from staffing and management concerns, but I think you will find that there is very little discretion involved on the part of any Medicare employee.  They just have their forms to fill out and their boxes to check.
 
...which is exactly what happens at other insurance companies as well.  My substitution exercise above was not random.  I have similar issues with my private insurer on a regular basis.  Random medical bills showing up for amounts I cannot verity, bureaucrats refusing to have an intelligent discussion, reimbursement that appears to come at random times and in random amounts - basically you are describing the medical insurance I pay $1,500/month for the privilege of enjoying.
 
These are not concerns with Medicare specifically, but concerns with the business of insurance in general, which is one of the reasons why I favor true single-payer systems instead of the patchwork we are headed for.  With a true single-payer system all of this just goes away.
 
 
Which leads me to my next observation/statement:  We have had various iterations of this healthcare discussion many times over the years.  So far I think we are batting a thousand on Canadians and Europeans arguing in favor of socialized medicine.  If it were so awful, you would think at least some of them would have said something by now?
 
 
EDIT - oh, and by the way: I am still getting the occasional call from the discount insurance company wanting to sell me crappy health "insurance."  Got another one just now.


Edited by Peter Parker - 29 July 2009 at 6:53pm

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2009 at 6:53pm
I also think that if "socialized" medicine takes hold, the next step should be "socialized legal care". Stop these high paid lawyers from charging ridiculusly high rates, a flat $20.00 per hour is more than adequite, if we are going to emasculate the doctor in his workplace, it is only fair that the lawyer is next. Tort reform is next, you can not sue the government if the government runs healthcare, there goes those great lawsuits.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2009 at 6:57pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

I also think that if "socialized" medicine takes hold, the next step should be "socialized legal care". Stop these high paid lawyers from charging ridiculusly high rates, a flat $20.00 per hour is more than adequite, if we are going to emasculate the doctor in his workplace, it is only fair that the lawyer is next. Tort reform is next, you can not sue the government if the government runs healthcare, there goes those great lawsuits.
 
We already have socialized legal care.  It's right there in the Constitution.
 

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2009 at 7:03pm
So why can lawyers charge so much and it is not OK for Doctors or drug designers/researcher to do the same for thier "speciality"?
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