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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 1:44am
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

No, you never did. You worked your way around it bringing up another, quite well thought out, idea, but never answered what I asked directly. Unless I missed a whole paragraph.



Again... emergency medicine =/= long term care. You can't compare "heart attack man" to "ghetto man who fakes pain for drugs" or "haunky that would rather spend money on alcohol then his own health".
 
 
Ok...   Let me have another go at it then.  A bit of a ramble, but hey.
 
First off, "healthcare", as well as "food" and "lodging", are not binary sets.  If there is a moral obligation to provide one or more of these, this moral obligation does not necessarily mean (and if fact almost certainly does not mean) that there is a moral obligation to provide this service without limits or qualifications.  So for the guy faking the symptoms, no - no moral obligation to give him drugs on false pretenses.  But yes obligation to help him if he actually needs help.
 
So there will never be a simple yes or no answer to this type of question.
 
My point with heart-attack man was two-fold, but for this post it is an illustration that we as a society feel a moral obligation to provide some degree of healthcare to everybody, regardless of financial circumstances. 
 
There are many reasons why we have this moral obligation, but a central point here is that nobody has a heart attack on purpose.  Nobody falls off a roof on purpose.  (Yes, yes, hypochondriacs and fools and all that - but we are deep into 99% here).  And even when an illness is the result of foolish behavior (lung cancer), we still feel that the result (lung cancer) is horrific beyond proportion to the sin (smoking) - so even then morality overwhelms our annoyance.  So as to the drunkard - yes, we have a moral duty to care for him when the alcohol abuse catches up to him.
 
Now here is the trick - I am NOT claiming that there is a general moral obligation to provide a full array of healthcare services to everybody.  I happen to think our moral obligation goes beyond the bare minimum heart-attack man, but I certainly don't feel a moral obligation to provide the range of services that I enjoy (for instance) to everybody automatically.
 
My reason for wanting to extend to those services universally is ECONOMIC, not moral.  Because once we admit that there is a moral obligation to provide some minimum medical services, I, as a self-interested capitalist, want to do so in the most efficient and cost-effective way possible.  And I happen to think that true universal care is more cost-effective than the shambles we have now.
 
So, NO - I do not think we have a moral obligation to provide semi-annual cholesterol testing to everybody.  I just think it is the smart selfish thing to do, to reduce my personal healthcare insurance costs.
 
And therein lies another key difference between food/shelter and medicine.
 
So - food and shelter.  Here, there is significantly greater risk of abuse.  Plenty of people will fail to obtain housing or food if they can get either at no cost.  This places a constraint on any moral obligation, as it is more difficult to tell who is truly in need.  But if there were a true need (however defined or established), then yes - food and shelter are functionally the same as emergency healthcare.
 
They are all really just special instances of a larger moral obligation:  Care for your fellow man in a time of need.  We cannot and should not stand idly by and watch people die in the streets - it matters not if they are dying from heart attack or hunger.  It's just that the heart attack is more immediate and identifiable than hunger.
 
HOWEVER, unlike healthcare, I do not see the economic benefit to providing food and shelter beyond the moral mandate.  For food and shelter I think more is just more, and costs more with no return on the investment.
 
So - yes, there is a moral obligation to provide food and shelter, but it doesn't take us the same place as the healthcare obligation.
 

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 1:45am
But he lead to his own thiamine deficiency, which lead to his own malnutrition.

So, we have to pay for his chosen disease?



What about COPDers? Pretty much a preventable disease, yet a huge healthcare burden.



PS-- when do you actually do a residency? You know, the fun stuff?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote *Stealth* Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 9:39am
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

But he lead to his own thiamine deficiency, which lead to his own malnutrition.

So, we have to pay for his chosen disease?



What about COPDers? Pretty much a preventable disease, yet a huge healthcare burden.



PS-- when do you actually do a residency? You know, the fun stuff?



Depends on which field you'd like to discuss.



For Radiology?

Next year.

For the completion of my Physicians Assistant program?

Three years
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 10:47am
Are you doing a BS in PA?   Who does a BS? Most programs I know do a 2 year.

I'm either going to do a bridge from Medic to RN, or might go for my PA, I've yet to decide though. We'll see how I like being in medicine...

Edited by Linus - 26 July 2009 at 10:47am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrenalinejunky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 11:42am
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

His argument was would I kicked "heart attack man" out of my rig because he couldn't pay. "Heart attack man" is an emergent situation that needs to be dealt with.


Chronic alcoholic with thiamine deficiency? Not an emergency.


That's the difference.





PS-- You'd be surprised what people call 911 for, or consider an emergency. One example? Gas.   Again, education is the answer, not free healthcare.


thats really a bad example - morally there may be no obligation, but as peter said, its more economical to just treat it, as the treatment for thiamine deficiency is simply B vitamines, not very expensive.

oaying for the ambulance, diagnosis, and treatment when his heart starts to give out is probably going to be more expensive. and making every patient take a test to determine his thiamine level before administering treatment just seems like a very bad idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 12:20pm
It really does seem like the arguments against a nationalized health care system are on a old-fashioned tape player set on loop:

"It will cost so much!"

No, it will cost a lot less than it does now.

"But people will take advantage of the system, and we'll have to pay for them!"

People already do that now, and we still pay for it.

"Letting the government run anything will make it terrible!"

No, the government manages to run a whole crap-ton of things very efficiently.

"You'll have to wait 19 years to see a doctor! Everyone will die!"

Somehow every other industrialized nation on earth who has done this whole socialized medicine thing has not run into this problem on a large scale. Not to mention, the system we currently rely on remains economically viable by making sure that as little people as possible get treated. If insurance companies actually approved and covered the treatments everyone needed, they would go broke. It's murder by spreadsheet.

"But what about those daggum illegal aliens!"

Like I said earlier, we already pay when they go to the ER, which costs a ton. If we switch systems, people can stay healthy and not need those costly ER trips.



 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ken Majors Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 12:20pm
Good point...and the end result of Thiamine Deficiency can be permanent neurological damage that makes the patient require in patient care for the rest of their lives.

1 simple dose of Thiamine in the field can prevent it.

Wernicke's encephalopathy is nothing to take lightly.
Neither is Korsakoffs syndrome.

When you get called for a drunk college student painting his car with his own feces....then you will truly understand the abuse of 911.
An Ambulance, and engine crew, 2 city cops, a state trooper, and 2 county deputies were called to that. Wonder what the cost was for that?

I love drunks and stupid people. They ensure job security.
Motorcycles, race cars, handguns, and Mcdonalds.....all add up to making sure Fire/EMS and Law Enforcement always have something to do.

ATF = Good Opportunity for trauma.
RLTW
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote *Stealth* Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Are you doing a BS in PA?   Who does a BS? Most programs I know do a 2 year.

I'm either going to do a bridge from Medic to RN, or might go for my PA, I've yet to decide though. We'll see how I like being in medicine...



BS in PA?

My program requires a masters just to get into it... Which I'm working towards.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 6:02pm
Masters to be a PA? Why not just go for an MD or DO then?

Edited by Linus - 26 July 2009 at 6:03pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 6:07pm
Looks like it is going to be a "States Rights" issue under the 10th Admendment anyway. Texas is leading the way with, no way on Obama Care.

http://www.star-telegram.com/804/story/1504240.html

Texas more than most knows whats at stake, they only need to look south and the potential drowning of any "free" healthcare from a flood coming from across the borber.



Edited by oldsoldier - 26 July 2009 at 6:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote *Stealth* Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Masters to be a PA? Why not just go for an MD or DO then?



A PA, and a MD have two very different lifestyles and responsibilities...

... That's why
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 8:04pm
Reading OS's article, I really can't believe that so many people are against helping other people...
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by *Stealth* *Stealth* wrote:


Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Masters to be a PA? Why not just go for an MD or DO then?
A PA, and a MD have two very different lifestyles and responsibilities...... That's why


Not MUCH different. Guess you get to save on malpractice insurance :)


Still... Much mire education then the norm. (not a bad thing)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 8:59pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Looks like it is going to be a "States Rights" issue under the 10th Admendment anyway. Texas is leading the way with, no way on Obama Care.

http://www.star-telegram.com/804/story/1504240.html

Texas more than most knows whats at stake, they only need to look south and the potential drowning of any "free" healthcare from a flood coming from across the borber.



Clever tactic; if they can force this into a states' rights showdown, they'll likely stop it from happening because the state governments that DO support centralized health care won't be able to fund it on their own.

I'm curious to see how this turns out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 10:17pm
"Ask not what your country can do for you, but for what you can do for your country" a long path from this statement to a country demanding more and more in entitlements. When will the many demanding more for free outnumber those that provide by thier labor, and what happens then?
"Man will squander what he finds for free, but will cherish and protect only that for what he labors for."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 10:20pm


Cool system brah.

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 10:38pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

"Ask not what your country can do for you, but for what you can do for your country" a long path from this statement to a country demanding more and more in entitlements. When will the many demanding more for free outnumber those that provide by thier labor, and what happens then?
"Man will squander what he finds for free, but will cherish and protect only that for what he labors for."


What don't you understand about the fact that the people who don't contribute can already receive free healthcare?

Current system leaves behind people who do contribute, but still can't afford it.
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 12:18am
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

"Ask not what your country can do for you, but for what you can do for your country" a long path from this statement to a country demanding more and more in entitlements. When will the many demanding more for free outnumber those that provide by thier labor, and what happens then?
"Man will squander what he finds for free, but will cherish and protect only that for what he labors for."


Help me out with this:

You support (implicitly through taxes and your continued citizenship, or explicitly through actions) government run security institutions (FBI, CIA, PD, etc.), but not something that will increase our society's well-being with regards to health.

You support the government institution that prevents, protects us from, and responds to fires, but you think we should be left in the dark as far as health care goes if we can't afford it.

You support the department that provides us with paved roads for god's sake, but not a government that would provide us accessible doctors, surgeons, PA's, chiropractors, physical therapists, trainers, etc. to improve our health.

And above all that, even if you don't think the government does some of that well or that it should be in the hands of some other entity, you support (and participated in) government-run military that fights for our government's right to subject us to it (and for our right to be subjected to it by our government), but not an institution that will help the sick.

Make the disconnect for me, because I don't understand it. We very obviously don't labor (in the sense that we don't put money into them like we would under your health care ) for your police, firefighters, and construction workers, but as a society we don't squander our police force, firefighters, or roads. In fact, I have never, ever heard a person complain about them footing a disproportionately large part fo the bill to pay for the interstate highway they use, or for any of the ones they don't. The same goes for firefighters and police. Why is it, then, that doctors and health care are so different?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 9:28am
Read the Constitution and show me where free health care falls into the 10th Amendment. The Constitution clearly divides what the Federal Government is tasked for, and what state government is tasked for. Nationalized, Socialized, Universal whatever you call Obama Care is beyond the scope of the 10the Amendment, and is being challenged as we speak.

What is the next service or commodity that the government will start to market as "free", free food (not excess), free housing (tried failed), free automobiles, destroying a significant part of the economy in the guise of free universal care only increases the power the government has in creating a dependancy on government, hense what will be the next target in order for those in power to stay in power. And do not believe for a second that a more distinct tiered system will evolve and the seperation between the haves (excellant care) and the have nots (mediocre care) will only increase.

Congressional powers
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Among the powers given to Congress by the U.S. Constitution:

>>To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.

>>To borrow money on the credit of the United States.

>>To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes.

>>To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States.

>>To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures.

>>To establish Post Offices and Post Roads.

>>To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court.

>>To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water.

>>To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years.

>>To provide and maintain a Navy.

>>To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.


Edited by oldsoldier - 27 July 2009 at 9:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2009 at 9:58am
Ummm, it is right there in the first one you listed....
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:



>>To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.


Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
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