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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slackerr26 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2009 at 10:00pm
Originally posted by Ken Majors Ken Majors wrote:



OS deserves to have his healthcare paid for....if you don't believe that....feel free to walk a mile in his shoes.



we dont need to. it was his choice to join. if we wanted to walk in his shoes, we would join too
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2009 at 10:03pm
Originally posted by Ken Majors Ken Majors wrote:


Sorry for not reading your completely obnoxious and judgemental posts.


And this, folks, is how you spell "irony."

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2009 at 10:14pm
Well I am against Healtcare reform, because:

Joe The Plumber is
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bolt3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2009 at 10:17pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Well I am against Healtcare reform, because:

Joe The Plumber is


"Wurzelbacher said he now attends "tea parties" -- held by Conservative groups to protest against economic policies they dislike -- and does not have time to work as a plumber."

Maybe if he worked a little more, and did a little less tea-bagging he would be able to pay his taxes.

"Reporters later learned that Wurzelbacher did not have a plumbing license, was behind on his taxes, had a real first name of Sam, and was unmarried with a teenage son."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2009 at 10:30pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:


Not to get too personal-- How do you pay $1,500 a month in insurance premiums?


I am self-employed.  Thus I pay ACTUAL healthcare premiums, instead of only half like employees do.  Most people paying $500-$700 (or whatever) each month think that's what their insurance costs.  They are off by 100%.

Quote Someone in your family, or you, have a pre-existing condition?


Nope - healthy non-smokers.

But think about the question you just asked.  What does it say about our healthcare system when those in need of financial help the most are merely aided on their way to financial doom instead?

"Pre-existing conditions" is one of the central reasons why we need true universal coverage.

Quote But honestly, if you can afford $18,000 a year in health insurance, I'm not too worried about you going broke ;)


You should be - I am.

I am going to keep harping on this until it catches on.  If I get cancer it will bankrupt me unless I die fast.  If I suffer major trauma and I can't sue somebody for a bucket of money over it, it will bankrupt me.

Check your health insurance policy.  Look closely at the limits.  Annual limits, lifetime benefit, etc.  Most of us are not as protected as we think.  One major illness will blow right through the coverage most of us have.

The leading cause of personal bankruptcy in the United States is illness.  It is a major contributing cause in something like 55% of all bankruptcies.

It worries me a whole lot.

Quote

But for black holes I was aiming more for Medicare, Medicaid, support for 3rd world style nursing homes. I've experienced the waste... it's pitiful.


It was obvious where you were headed, so I didn't go there.  My point here, as before, was that government actually does a pretty good job providing a host of valuable services at a pretty good price.


Quote Not a single European country has a population of over 300,000,000. TOTALLY different effect when it comes to providing something to everyone when you only have to do it for 10mil, even if you take GDP into effect.


That is such a complete copout.  Not to mention that it makes no sense.  If it makes you feel better, we could have state-level programs.  Is the government of France that much smarter than the government of Texas?

But there is no reason to believe that what can be done for 50,000,000 people cannot be done for 300,000,000.  If anything, it should simply lead to greater efficiencies.

Quote
It's not the governments job to provide everyone with healthcare.   I haven't seen it stated in the Constitution. Not in the Bill or Rights. Not in the Declaration of Independence. Not even in the Confederate papers.


What an odd statement.  As pointed out by others, there is a bunch of other stuff the government does that is also not in the Constitution - like education.

But here is an exercise for you:  do a search in any legal document of your choosing for the phrase "public health and safety."  You will quickly discover that this phrase appears in countless statutes, regulations, court opinions, legislative communicados, and so forth.  It is extraordinarily pervasive in the legal discourse in the country, and has been from the very beginning. 

If it is not a function of the government to care for the public health, somebody ought to tell them - the government has apparently been wrong for the last 200 years or so.


Quote
Again, I'm not against healthcare. I'm against the money being spent on the wrong thing. You honestly can not tell me putting the proposed healthcare budget into the education budget won't be better for the country as a whole.


Ok - it still isn't taking: GOOD HEALTHCARE REFORM WILL SAVE US MONEY.  There is no increased cost.  There is a SAVINGS.

And, if you like, we could put some of that savings into education.



Oh, and why does Firefox hate me?  I keep getting logged out for no reason.  Usually in the middle of a post.

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2009 at 10:58pm
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:


It was obvious where you were headed, so I didn't go there.  My point
here, as before, was that government actually does a pretty good job
providing a host of valuable services at a pretty good price.


Not the federale government. The state and local governments. Need we start bringing up all the "pork barrel" crap? I thought we all tired of it from last November?

Quote Ok - it still isn't taking: GOOD HEALTHCARE REFORM WILL SAVE US MONEY.  There is no increased cost.  There is a SAVINGS.


And yet, there is the rush to find "where to get the couple of billion needed".

Quote Oh, and why does Firefox hate me?  I keep getting logged out for no reason.  Usually in the middle of a post.

Did it to me twice in this thread.

I think FireFox hates universal healthcare.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2009 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:



And yet, there is the rush to find "where to get the couple of billion needed".


Don't mind my made up numbers.

Raise everyones taxes by say $100. That goes to the government for universal healthcare.

Everyone now has healthcare.

You and your employers stop giving $200 to insurance companies.

You/employers save, government makes it and can now afford the billions.
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2009 at 11:30pm
Screw it.


Give everyone $1,000,000. From this point on if someone falls in to poverty, they die.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2009 at 11:31pm
...
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2009 at 11:31pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:


Not the federale government. The state and local governments. Need we start bringing up all the "pork barrel" crap? I thought we all tired of it from last November?
 
I do believe I listed a handful of federal programs already...
 
But I'll throw in some more just for the heck of it:
 
- Federal judicial system
  - FBI and pals
  - US attorneys
  - Federal judges
  - Federal prison system
  - And, you know, laws and stuff
 
- Education
  - Federal funding, direct or indirect, for 90%+ of schools in the country
  - Federally owned and operated educational facilities, like the Naval Academy
  - Federal student loans and grants
  - Federal funding for libraries
  - Federally operated libraries
  - Ditto for museums
 
- Science
  - Federal funding for private research
  - Federally operated research facilities, both military and civilian
  - NASA
  - See "museums" above
 
- Conservation
  - Federal parks
  - Federal lands management
  - Wildlife preserves
  - Federal programs targeting specific troubled species and ecosystems
 
And there's more.  There is always more.
 
I will not say that all of these - or even any of these - could not be done better or more efficiently than they currently are.  I am sure there is significant waste.  But that isn't the question. 
 
The question is whether the private sector would or could deliver these services cheaper or better than the government does, or even at all.  And I suspect that if you look closely and think about it, you will discover that the answer in most cases is no.
 
 
Quote
Quote Ok - it still isn't taking: GOOD HEALTHCARE REFORM WILL SAVE US MONEY.  There is no increased cost.  There is a SAVINGS.


And yet, there is the rush to find "where to get the couple of billion needed".
 
Two reasons - first, because the plan isn't a real universal health plan, but just more dinking around the edges.
 
Second, and more importantly, because Americans are so irrationally hung up on taxes.  We are apparently incapable of figuring out that paying $1 in taxes to save $3 in other expenses is a good deal.
 
I keep hearing Americans complain about the awfully high taxes in Europe.  But overwhelmingly the complainers fail to compare apples to apples. 
 
Let's think about it.  Hypothetical example (not real numbers, but not irrational and convenient for calculations):
 
American family:
- Pays $100k/year in income taxes, including medicare/medicaid, SS and state taxes.
- Pays $10k/year in health insurance premiums
- Puts aside $20k/year for retirement savings
- Puts aside $15k/year for college savings (and/or repaying college debt, whichever)
 
European family:
- Pays $145k in income taxes (only one tax, instead of state/fed+medicare etc.)
- Pays $0/year in health insurance premiums (covered by taxes)
- Puts aside $0/year for retirement savings (covered by taxes)
- Puts aside $0/year for college savings/loan repayment (covered by taxes)
Each family is net $145k/year out of pocket, for basically the same benefits.  Yet all too often, hysterical Americans look at that and simply say "ZOMG HIGH EUROTAXES!"
 
More specific to this discussion, I will repeat what I have said many times before:  If we are going to a single-payer system (which I think we should, but which unfortunately is not where we are headed), that has to be paid for.  If is it government-funded, then taxes need to go up to pay for it.  Obviously.  BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I could stop paying Aetna $1,500/month.  I would rather pay $500/month in extra taxes than $1,500/month to Aetna.  That seems like a no-brainer to me.
 
 

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 12:03am
And I'd rather not provide healthcare to those who don't contribute a cent to it themselves. Call me selfish, but I feel people should work for what they get, and not expect it just for being born here instead of 30ft over the Rio Grande.


Having said that, you, or any person I have ever asked the question to, has yet to provide a legit answer-


Why is healthcare a right that everyone should get for free, but no push for food, water, or shelter?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 12:14am
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

And I'd rather not provide healthcare to those who don't contribute a cent to it themselves. Call me selfish, but I feel people should work for what they get,


You already pay for them.

Difference is you are also paying for yourself.

The people that do contribute, but can't afford health insurance are also paying for them.
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 12:25am
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:


- Puts aside $20k/year for retirement savings
Americans saving money? You must be drunk.

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

And I'd rather not provide healthcare to those who don't contribute a cent to it themselves. Call me selfish, but I feel people should work for what they get, and not expect it just for being born here instead of 30ft over the Rio Grande.


Having said that, you, or any person I have ever asked the question to, has yet to provide a legit answer-


Why is healthcare a right that everyone should get for free, but no push for food, water, or shelter?
Ok first of all if the do it right everyone will pay at least something. Probably through a tax on unhealthy things such as soda, non olestra chips (the uncontrollable anal seepage makes them good for you). Second, you'd rather pay more for something just to prove a point to poor people rather than pay less, get more or at the worst off, the same, just to prove that point? Are you nuts?

Where is that Jesus guy when you need him about helping out those in need?


Also at least you can agree on federally funded prenatal care and all the costs of actually having a baby within a hospital so we can at least assure that the precious life that comes with a newborn starts off in the healthiest fashion possible?

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 12:49am
Originally posted by mbro mbro wrote:

Ok first of all if the do it right everyone will pay at least something.
Theoretically, EVERYONE should be paying something now, but we all know that's not true. This plan won't change anything.


Quote Second, you'd rather pay more for something just to prove a point to poor people rather than pay less, get more or at the worst off, the same, just to prove that point? Are you nuts?


I'll say it again since people clearly miss it. I'm not against a healthcare reform. I'm against the government providing healthcare. HUGE difference.


Quote Where is that Jesus guy when you need him about helping out those in need?
So you're telling me every single person that will get healthcare from that plan needs it? Need =/= want.



Quote Also at least you can agree on federally funded prenatal care and all the costs of actually having a baby within a hospital so we can at least assure that the precious life that comes with a newborn starts off in the healthiest fashion possible?
And again;

I'm not against helping people. I'm against helping people that take advantage of the system.




You've obviously been paying NO attention to the Guatemalan vs Florida hospital court case, have you? Depending on how the courts rule, that can either save, or ruin, every single hospital in the US.

Edited by Linus - 26 July 2009 at 12:50am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote *Stealth* Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 1:03am
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:




I'm not against helping people. I'm against helping people that take advantage of the system.
.



You must be against damn near every system instituted then...

Legal, health, defense, medical, educational...


If there is a system in place, if there are rules or guidelines - some people will find a way to exploit it, hell a person created it, a person will find a way to use it differently than intended.


Because there are some people who will exploit and rip something off, is not a legitimate reason for argument on why not to institute it.



 


Edited by *Stealth* - 26 July 2009 at 1:04am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 1:06am
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

And I'd rather not provide healthcare to those who don't contribute a cent to it themselves.
 
Hi, page 5 Linus.  Meet page 4 Linus:
 
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:


We're in healthcare. It's quite obvious, or it should be, that we help sick people, regardless of their ability to pay.
 
...
So, to answer your question: No, I wouldn't kick "the heartattack man" out of my ambulance, I don't know anyone who would, and I don't know a single doctor who would refuse to help him.




Back to page 5:

Quote Call me selfish, but I feel people should work for what they get, and not expect it just for being born here instead of 30ft over the Rio Grande.
 
So you would rather be stuck with a horrifically inefficient and expensive system, JUST to make sure that heart-attack man doesn't get a free ride?
 
That's rather illogical.  Cutting off nose to spite face, and so forth.
 

Quote
Having said that, you, or any person I have ever asked the question to, has yet to provide a legit answer-

Why is healthcare a right that everyone should get for free, but no push for food, water, or shelter?
 
I thought I gave a rather thoughtful answer to that, actually.
 
 

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 1:10am
No, you never did. You worked your way around it bringing up another, quite well thought out, idea, but never answered what I asked directly. Unless I missed a whole paragraph.



Again... emergency medicine =/= long term care. You can't compare "heart attack man" to "ghetto man who fakes pain for drugs" or "haunky that would rather spend money on alcohol then his own health".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote *Stealth* Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 1:26am
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:



Again... emergency medicine =/= long term care. .



What's the difference?

With out long term care practices you're placing yourself in a position that will likely necessitate and emergency response.


What about the people with cardiac history, high cholesterol, diabetes, corrosive nerve damage? Every single one of them will be on the phone with 911 in a short amount of time with out a long term care plan.


In-fact,

I'm willing to wager that, given a long term care plan for every person, there would be a great deal fewer "emergency needs".

  





Edited by *Stealth* - 26 July 2009 at 1:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 1:30am
His argument was would I kicked "heart attack man" out of my rig because he couldn't pay. "Heart attack man" is an emergent situation that needs to be dealt with.


Chronic alcoholic with thiamine deficiency? Not an emergency.


That's the difference.





PS-- You'd be surprised what people call 911 for, or consider an emergency. One example? Gas.   Again, education is the answer, not free healthcare.

Edited by Linus - 26 July 2009 at 1:31am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote *Stealth* Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2009 at 1:42am
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

His argument was would I kicked "heart attack man" out of my rig because he couldn't pay. "Heart attack man" is an emergent situation that needs to be dealt with.


Chronic alcoholic with thiamine deficiency? Not an emergency.


That's the difference.





PS-- You'd be surprised what people call 911 for, or consider an emergency. One example? Gas.   Again, education is the answer, not free healthcare.



I intern at a regional facility - no I wouldn't be.... unfortunately :P


As for the alchy, he is and isn't - just depends on how far into the future you want to consider.
WHO says eating pork is safe, but Mexicans have even cut back on their beloved greasy pork tacos. - MSNBC on the Swine Flu
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