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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2009 at 11:41am
Exactly. I don't get the point of it?


Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2009 at 11:56am
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Exactly. I don't get the point of it?


 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2009 at 11:56am
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Exactly. I don't get the point of it?


The point FE is trying to make is that the President is lying about a private option remaining in force once his plan is fully implemented.

Edited:  Because FE jumped in between postings (durnit FE!) and I had to add Jmac3's original post for this to make sense.


Edited by Mack - 03 August 2009 at 12:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2009 at 11:59am
I actually happened to be watching some news show on Fox yesterday and they had Karl Rove on. Some of the figures he was presenting were actually pretty interesting. I tried to find the video, but couldn't. Basically, after discounting non-U.S. citizens, and those making $50k or more, and some other factors, it came down to somthing like 2 or 3% not actually having viable health insurance. Sounds like a lot of hoops to jump through to change our entire healthcare system to absorb that small of a percentage. Something like 16 million in the 41 or 47 million figure apparently is represented by non-U.S. citizens. Should we really have to be insuring people that aren't here either legally or not citizens?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2009 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I actually happened to be watching some news show on Fox yesterday and they had Karl Rove on. Some of the figures he was presenting were actually pretty interesting. I tried to find the video, but couldn't. Basically, after discounting non-U.S. citizens, and those making $50k or more, and some other factors, it came down to somthing like 2 or 3% not actually having viable health insurance. Sounds like a lot of hoops to jump through to change our entire healthcare system to absorb that small of a percentage. Something like 16 million in the 41 or 47 million figure apparently is represented by non-U.S. citizens. Should we really have to be insuring people that aren't here either legally or not citizens?


You left out the part about them not contributing while using up resources contributed by those here legally.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2009 at 12:13pm
Between myself, and my company I pay over $1,000 a month for my family of 4's health care currently.
 
I can't wait until Obamacare takes over and "lowers" my costs. They have such a great record of lowering costs of everything they do, and the way they handle medicare, and medicaid (oh wait, aren't they bankrupt... Never mind). Its going to make everything better.
 
I'm sure the following graph showing the new and improved layers of garbage (excuse me, I mean government intervention) will reduce my current monthly cost significantly... Right?...
 
 
 


Edited by FreeEnterprise - 03 August 2009 at 12:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2009 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Between myself, and my company I pay over $1,000 a month for my family of 4's health care currently.
 


And you think your taxes would go up by more than $1,000 a month to have universal healthcare?

Are you high?

If you weren't so backwards, that would qualify as an argument for universal healthcare
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2009 at 12:19pm
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/02/obama-officials-end-recession-near/
 
 
so much for Obama promise of not increasing taxes on anyone under $275,000, wait, $250,000, Hold on, $200,000... Rrrggh Biden said $170,000 per year...
 
Only six months in and he is going back on that promise. (cause everyone knows that no poor people smoke, and that wasn't really a "tax increase"...)
 

With an expected deficit next year of $1.8 trillion, and spending still being planned for a $1 trillion, 10-year health care reform, officials say something will have to be done to prevent further erosion of the economy.

"We will not get this economy back on track, recovery will be not strong and sustained, unless we ... can convince the American people that we're going to have the will to bring these deficits down once recovery is firmly established," Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner said on ABC's "This Week." 

Asked point blank whether it was right to suggest it is a matter of when, not if, taxes will be raised, Geithner responded, "It is absolutely right."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2009 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:



And you think your taxes would go up by more than $1,000 a month to have universal healthcare?

Are you high?

If you weren't so backwards, that would qualify as an argument for universal healthcare
 
 
So, if you buy something for $1,000 it costs $1,000.
 
 
If the government buys something worth $1,000 and "gives" it to me, it costs me less than $1,000?
 
And I'm backwards. Dude, you are so lost its not even worth pointing you in the right direction...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2009 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:



And you think your taxes would go up by more than $1,000 a month to have universal healthcare?

Are you high?

If you weren't so backwards, that would qualify as an argument for universal healthcare
 
 
So, if you buy something for $1,000 it costs $1,000.
 
 
If the government buys something worth $1,000 and "gives" it to me, it costs me less than $1,000?
 
And I'm backwards. Dude, you are so lost its not even worth pointing you in the right direction...


No, because it will probably cost less than $1,000 a month in taxes.

Also, what is wrong with everyone having healthcare if it isn't costing you any extra money?

Explain to me how I am lost.
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2009 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 
Dude, you are so lost its not even worth pointing you in the right direction...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2009 at 12:36pm
...
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2009 at 1:14pm
Show one government program that confiscates X amount in taxes, and can actually supply a service to you for X or less than X. Usually it is a X+ cost per individual when the government is involved. Look at your Social Security, and tell me straight faced that you actually expect to recieve that amount or more when you retire. Lets see you go to Home Depot and pay for a $15.00 hammer, the government buys the same hammer st $150.00, the $1500 coffee pot for the C5A was a classic. The M16 Sight adjusting tool costs the government $27.50 per, yet all it is is a dropkey screwdriver available at any hardware store for around $2.75.

It is quite clear that the Obama budget is a disaster, now they have to figure out how to pay for all the promises to thier low income voting base. So the easy answer is raise the taxes on the middle class (again) to support the dependant class of democratic voters. The middle class suckers that voted for this idiot with dreams of "Hope and Change" are getting it now in heaping steaming piles as they try to dodge the crap dropping down on them from DC.

Edited by oldsoldier - 03 August 2009 at 1:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2009 at 1:16pm
Julius Levinson: You don't actually think they spend $20,000.00 on a hammer, $30,000.00 on a toilet seat do you?




Also, FE you never told me how I am lost.


Edited by jmac3 - 03 August 2009 at 1:17pm
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slackerr26 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2009 at 1:24pm
what exactly do you guys think is going to come about in these discussions? do you think obama cares what FE and OS think? no. its going to happen no matter how many youtube videos you post, or however many obama posters you throw on here.


Edited by slackerr26 - 03 August 2009 at 1:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2009 at 1:25pm
Sand to vagina ratio in this thread is insane.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2009 at 4:10pm
Doesn't bother me a bit if this idiotic proposal is passed. I got maybe 10-15 years left on this rock, and I've been dealing with government run iefficient healthcare for years. It is you all that will be stuck paying the bill, and getting little return on your medical care investment. Remmember you get what you pay for, except when you try to get something from the government, then they overcharge you and tell you what you are going to get, how much, and where, now is that "choice".

Oh and remmember last week my "rural americana" discussion: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090801/ap_on_re_us/us_health_care_overhaul_rural_health_2 farmers who work with bravo sierra daily, know what it is, and the smell from DC is unmistakeable to them, and they know who will be forgotten in this coming fiasco.

Edited by oldsoldier - 03 August 2009 at 4:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2009 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

   Remmember you get what you pay for, except when you try to get something from the government, then they overcharge you and tell you what you are going to get, how much, and where, now is that "choice".
Sounds like you just described any insurance program in existence.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2009 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:



And you think your taxes would go up by more than $1,000 a month to have universal healthcare?

Are you high?

If you weren't so backwards, that would qualify as an argument for universal healthcare
 
 
So, if you buy something for $1,000 it costs $1,000.
 
 
If the government buys something worth $1,000 and "gives" it to me, it costs me less than $1,000?
 
And I'm backwards. Dude, you are so lost its not even worth pointing you in the right direction...


No, because it will probably cost less than $1,000 a month in taxes.

Also, what is wrong with everyone having healthcare if it isn't costing you any extra money?

Explain to me how I am lost.

I am not sure what FE was referring to but reviewing the above posts got me confused enough to point out the following.

If something costs $1000, but the government collects less than $1000 in taxes, that is called "increasing the deficit" and is generally not a good thing.

In reference to the final question; one of the basic arguments in favor of government health care is that some people can't afford it but should still have it.  If these people are given such health care that does not magically make them able to afford it but someone has to pay for it.  If it is paid for by the government, then essentially someone who has a better income is subsidizing (or paying for) it.  That is the point I believe FE was trying to make:  Nothing is free, if the government raises taxes to pay for healthcare for those who can't, then everyone else is paying for it.  If the government puts the responsibility on businesses, then they just raise their prices and everyone else is still paying for it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2009 at 5:26pm
One of the practices you all forget on government taxation. Collect tax A for project A, deposit taxes into the "general fund" and then pay for the deficet already in projects B,C and D. Then when it comes time to fund project A, no funding available. Government option at that point, are 1. Borrow from project E, or 2. Raise taxes again for project A and repeat the process. Guess which one congress usually goes for, and then just try and find the social security lock box funds as were promised.

And since when does the government actually work on a 0 deficit model, not since 1862. The income tax was a temporary "fix" to fund the union war effort, and we now know the true government term for "temporary", that term is increase.

Civics question: What is the role of the "states" in a Federal system as envisioned by the founders? And the differences today are?

Edited by oldsoldier - 03 August 2009 at 5:28pm
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