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We have to SPEND money to keep from going Bankrupt

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    Posted: 17 July 2009 at 7:41am

Is this what they teach people now? No matter how bad it is, just spend more and you won't go bankrupt.

 
Nice lernin thar mr vice president... Its no wonder you "misread" how bad the economy was, logic like this is just unforgivable.
 
 
 
Wow, all you guys that voted for this dolt sure look dumb now... Hows unemployement treating you?
 
Oh, you still have a job... Wait until "cap and tax" and "obamacare" take effect...
 
Yup, Change for everyone. That $5.00 that slacker owes me just keeps being devalued by the day with this government being so fiscally irresponsible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 9:32am
Yes, sometimes you have to spend to avoid bankruptcy.  Seems pretty obvious.


And didn't we already establish that cap and trade doesn't have to be an economic negative, and in fact should have tremendous benefits?  Likewise healthcare reform - reducing cost is a bad thing how?

I see a trend here:

1.  FE regurgitates some talking points.

2.  I rebut said talking points.

3.  Instead of responding, FE starts a new thread regurgitating same talking points as if nothing happened.




"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 10:56am
I would be glad to debate you on this, but since you can't keep from besmirching my character at every opportunity, I choose not to.
 
Unless you wish to apologize, and then we can move on...
 
As far as your argument...
 
Exactly how am I as a business owner going to pay for the added cost of cap and trade to my costs when I currently have a profit margin of less than 3%...
 
I can't "increase" my costs to my customers, as they are already going over to china now to buy their large printing projects...
 
Last week I quoted a large print job to a customer right down the street from me. My "normal" cost was $28,000.
 
I need the work, so I quoted it for $18,000.
 
My paper cost alone was $10,000.
 
 
China got the job delivered to Florida for $7,400...
 
 
So, explain how I can "afford" cap and trade which will significantly increase my materials cost, as well as my electric to produce it?
 
 
Next, health care. The plan on the table takes my employees who chose their partners health coverage (as it is better than what I can offer), and they HAVE to use my insurance unless I want to pay a penalty. Which increases my costs significantly. Not to mention lots of people CHOOSE not to have insurance... Now I and everyone else will be paying for those people as well.
 
You can't add this
 
 
 and get "cost reductions"...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 11:06am
Maybe you should figure out why China can do it for $7,400 and do it that way?

Cry moar. If people can get it cheaper they are going to, it isn't the governments fault.

I am not looking up anything right now, but I am pretty sure employers don't get penalized for not giving insurance to people. I am pretty sure you will just have to offer it. Also, the person without insurance gets the penalization.
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 11:12am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

I would be glad to debate you on this, but since you can't keep from besmirching my character at every opportunity, I choose not to.
 
Unless you wish to apologize, and then we can move on...


I besmirch your character?  When/how did I do that?




Edited by Peter Parker - 17 July 2009 at 11:12am

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 11:13am
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Maybe you should figure out why China can do it for $7,400 and do it that way?


So you're suggesting that FE run his business with Chinese wages, benefits and environmental respect? 




Edit:  Dang it Peter, you snuck in there with a reply and I had to go back and edit in jmac's quote so my post would make sense.  I think you do this to me on purpose as part of the evil liberal plot. Big smile

Second edit:  Because it's "you're" not "your" and things like that bug me when I screw them up.


Edited by Mack - 17 July 2009 at 11:23am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 11:21am
I'm going to post what PP said about cap and trade, with the hopes people understand that it is the truth.

Quote
Actually, we have had cap and trade in place for years.  It is reflected in your electric bill.
 
Oh, you meant cap and trade for CO2 emissions?  Ah - I thought you meant cap and trade for SO2.  I was off by a letter.
 
No biggie - we all remember the devastating impacts on the economy when SO2 caps were instituted, right?  Right?  And we all remember the HUGE increases in our electric bills, right?  RIGHT?

"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 11:24am
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

Did you stop beating your wife before or after you embezzled the company?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 11:24am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

I would be glad to debate you on this, but since you can't keep from besmirching my character at every opportunity, I choose not to.
 
Unless you wish to apologize, and then we can move on...

Oh please point out where he has done this. I'd really like to see it.

Peter attacking someone's character is the last thing I expect to see when I read his posts.

Edit- Swing and a miss, FE. You took his quote out of context and you didn't even understand it in the original thread.


Edited by High Voltage - 17 July 2009 at 11:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 11:27am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

Did you stop beating your wife before or after you embezzled the company?




Um, yeah.

"When did you stop beating your wife" is (literally) a textbook example used to illustrate an improper question.  My statement quoted above was a pretty obvious retort to your ridiculously loaded question in the prior post.

You are working pretty hard at it if you think that was a personal insult.

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 11:28am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

Did you stop beating your wife before or after you embezzled the company?




Yeah. Wow. That was an analogy. It's a comparative literary device.

Unless you actually have been beating your wife or embezzling money, then it would make sense. Otherwise, it makes as much literal sense as me saying "You run around like a chicken with its head cut off."

I'm not actually saying that you are a chicken. Nor do I think you are decapitated.


"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 11:31am
Originally posted by High Voltage High Voltage wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

I would be glad to debate you on this, but since you can't keep from besmirching my character at every opportunity, I choose not to.
 
Unless you wish to apologize, and then we can move on...

Oh please point out where he has done this. I'd really like to see it.

Peter attacking someone's character is the last thing I expect to see when I read his posts.


Really, he did it to me.

Oh, wait . . . I think he called me a character.

No, that was someone else . . .

. . . that called some other person a character.

So . . . never mind.

Seriously, while Peter and I disagree on a lot (mainly because of differences such as he's liberal and I'm more conservative or he's wrong and I'm right) I have never seen him result to a personal attack.  Heck, I haven't even seen him get testy more than a couple of times; which is quite a feat on here.  The "wife beating" comment posted above was merely an attempt at a humorous example to make a point.*




*I'm funnier also.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 11:32am
Oh, ok... My bad... As I can't read your "facial" expressions it is hard to follow your intent at times.
 
 
Cap and trade is the current name used to debate the current bill in the house and senate. That is where the name comes from.
 
Here are a few of my arguments in a link so I don't have to retype...
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 11:34am
A few of YOUR arguments in a link?

When did you have time to get a PHD with all the bike riding, business running, and homeschooling?
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 11:39am
What he should have said "was here are a few of the arguments I agree with/support."  Trying to claim that FE was taking credit for those arguments based on the wording of his post is as bad as him trying to claim PP insulted him and is unworthy of you.  (Unless of course you were being ironic; in which case you may ignore my post.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 11:42am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 
Exactly how am I as a business owner going to pay for the added cost of cap and trade to my costs when I currently have a profit margin of less than 3%...
 
I can't "increase" my costs to my customers, as they are already going over to china now to buy their large printing projects...
 
Last week I quoted a large print job to a customer right down the street from me. My "normal" cost was $28,000.
 
I need the work, so I quoted it for $18,000.
 
My paper cost alone was $10,000.
 
 
China got the job delivered to Florida for $7,400...
 
 
So, explain how I can "afford" cap and trade which will significantly increase my materials cost, as well as my electric to produce it?
 


First off, I second the sentiment of "cry moar."  We all face competition.  We deal.  If you can't underprice China then you deliver better product or service.  If you can't do that, then you should quit the business.  That's how capitalism works.

More specifically - if your price is already more than double the competition and you are still making sales, this tells me that your customers are choosing your product NOT primarily based on price.  Which tells me you have some room in your financials.

And as for your 3% profit margin, that seems rather odd.  You offered a customer a 40% discount just to land the deal, and you are running a 3% net margin?  You have customers who are obviously not particularly price-sensitive, and you have a 3% net margin?  Very odd.  3% margins are typically associated with commodity businesses, which yours appears not to be.

 
Quote Next, health care. The plan on the table


Allow me to say off the bat that I am not a fan of the plan on the table.  It may be an improvement, it may not.  But as I understand it, it is basically more of the same, just tinkering around the edges.  We need to scrap the entire current system, not mess around with tweaks.

Quote Not to mention lots of people CHOOSE not to have insurance... Now I and everyone else will be paying for those people as well.


Hate to break it to ya - you/we already ARE paying for those people.

What people seem not to understand is that we already HAVE socialized medicine in the US - we just have the world's worst and most expensive socialized medicine.  If we would just admit that to ourselves, then maybe we could get on to the business of fixing it.

Properly done healthcare reform WILL save you money, and lots of it.  The US spends two, three, four times as much money on healthcare as the other industrialized nations, while providing less and worse care.  If we took even the second-worst comprehensive healthcare system in the world and copied it, that would be a major improvement over what we have now, and would drastically cut costs.

The ONLY way healthcare reform does NOT save us buckets of money is if we just dink around and add complexity instead of doing a proper overhaul.

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 11:50am
You want to really cut costs in health care...
 
 
Put a cap on medical lawsuits... Of course that idea is never floated, as most politicians are lawyers.
 
 
As for margin, I have lost money every month this year so far. In average over the past two years it is running around 3%.

The well is dry, printers are dying in my town weekly now, and the ones that are able to make it through this are the ones with deep pockets. That didn't buy new equipment and run up debt when things were good.
 
I've been in the printing industry since 94.
 
 
"Secondly, to imply that most printers are over-charging their clients and that profits are too high in this industry is simply to be out of touch with reality. Printing Industries of America studies indicate the average profit margin, from the smallest to the largest shop, is about 4% to 5%. So, if everyone dropped their prices by a whopping 5% there would be no profits at all. The reality is prices and margins are so low that itís hard to justify the high capital cost of equipment. In fact, return on investment has to increase, not decrease."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 11:54am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Not to mention lots of people CHOOSE not to have insurance...


PP already got to the whole "We pay for them already" point.

However, as a side note, I'm pretty sure if you look at the actual numbers here, the number of people who "choose" to not have health insurance are either 1) Choosing because their spouse has a better coverage plan that they can ride on, 2) Are "choosing" not to take on the costs of health insurance because they would rather do things like buy groceries, eat, etc. This is not taking into consideration the very small minority of religious folk who don't take out policies because they consider it gambling.

I'm willing to bet that the number of people who actively make the choice to live their lives without insurance, even though they could afford it, is quite low.


"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 11:59am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Oh, ok... My bad... As I can't read your "facial" expressions it is hard to follow your intent at times.


No problem.  Happens to all of us.
 
 
Quote Cap and trade is the current name used to debate the current bill in the house and senate. That is where the name comes from.
 
Here are a few of my arguments in a link so I don't have to retype...
 


The name/term "cap and trade" is a lot older than the current bill.  My point in the post that Whale copied was that cap and trade regimes have been in place for many types of emissions (and other commodities as well) for a long time, in many different places.  Yet the economy has not crashed.

In particular, cap and trade for SO2 was established in the US in 1990ish to address acid rain concerns.  Cap and trade for NOx has been in place since 2000ish.  In both cases, critics predicted doom and gloom (I seem to recall that the CEI was particularly pessimistic about the SO2 restriction), and in both cases the economic impacts have been minimal.

In both cases the CBO made cost predictions, and in both cases the actual cost impacts ended up being significantly LESS than the CBO predictions.  The CBO is a very conservative (in a budgeting sense of the word) office, and their projections are usually very thorough and pessimistic.

As to the Heritage Foundation link - interesting piece, and I will have to read it again slowly. 

As to your personal/business energy costs - how about this deal:  I will let you lock in your electricity price for the next 10 or 20 years.  Historically, utility rates go up about 4%-5% annually, but with great volatility, and the volatility itself causes great problems.  Instead, you sign up with me and I will get you electricity at a fixed price (or with a small escalator, whichever you prefer) for the next 10 or 20 years.  That fixed price will be a little higher than what you are paying now, but if utility prices keep going up at their current rate, they will pass my fixed rate in 5-8 years, and over the course of the 20 years you will come out way ahead.  And if your pessimism about energy prices is correct, you save even more.

Sound like a good deal?


"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Maybe you should figure out why China can do it for $7,400 and do it that way?

Cry moar. If people can get it cheaper they are going to, it isn't the governments fault.

 
Nice...
 
Well, someday if you actually grow up and live the american dream by owning your own business. Then you will see that China is a communist country that doesn't play by the capitalist rules that America used to live by.
 
So, I can't get my paper for almost free, and get free shipping to the US and have employees that make $.10 per hour...
 
Why don't you learn about business and try and figure out a way to help instead of posting stuff like above?
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