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We have to SPEND money to keep from going Bankrupt

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: We have to SPEND money to keep from going Bankrupt
    Posted: 17 July 2009 at 6:45pm
Wait wait wait

FE, are you arguing AGAINST cap and trade? That's about as free market (or Free Enterprise, if you will) and economically sound as it gets when it comes to controlling pollution.

The treehuggers are supposed to be the ones against cap and trade since its trading pollution rights!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bolt3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 4:14pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Personal economic structure =! Government economic structure.


Beat me to it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Good old liberal logic. (Oh, wait, you keep saying your not liberal... Yeah right....)


Let's see - so far in this thread I have argued in favor of cutting healthcare costs, argued in favor of a market-based solution to environmental issues, I have expressed disdain at your plight in face of stiff competition, I have proposed an energy price hedge/swap structure to alleviate energy costs, and I have suggested that it may be appropriate for your business to fail if the competition is more cost-effective.

You, in the meantime, have blamed your plight on the Chinese and on the US government.

So which one of us is "liberal?"

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 
Biden says (and obviously Obama agrees since he hasn't distanced himself from the statement)
 
"We have to spend money to keep from going bankrupt."
 
 
Then this
 
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

Yes, sometimes you have to spend to avoid bankruptcy.  Seems pretty obvious.

 
 
It makes me wonder why anyone would take anything you say as credible...
 
That is lunacy, when you are about to go bankrupt, you certainly don't spend MORE. You try and pay off what you owe, and get out of the situation YOU YOURSELF put yourself into.
 


Not only is it not lunacy, it is - like I said - pretty obvious.

Here is an easy example:  I have a business.  I am currently running at a loss, because the market rate for my product is below my cost of manufacture.  At my current burn rate, I will be bankrupt in six months.

To solve my problem, I spend some money to purchase newer and more efficient.  My cost of manufacture is now well below my sale price, and I now run at a handy profit.

Another:  I have a business.  I just got sued for a very large amount.  If I lose the lawsuit, or fail to defend, I will be bankrupted by the lawsuit.  I therefore spend some money to hire an attorney to fight the lawsuit.  If he is successful, I have avoided bankruptcy.

Another:  I have a business.  I used to be the market leader, but new competition is making better products for less, and I am on a path to bankruptcy.  Therefore spend money to research new products, and spend more on marketing to increase sales of my new products.

The list is literally endless.  The very nature of business consists of spending money to avoid bankruptcy.  If you don't pay your salaries, you eventually go bankrupt.  Don't pay your rent, same thing.  That is what business is.

Obvious.


"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Personal economic structure =! Government economic structure.

This seems to be the cause of the disconnect between your understanding the current situation and what is actually happening in reality. 
*!=

Just trying to be syntactically correct here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 3:31pm
Personal economic structure =! Government economic structure.

This seems to be the cause of the disconnect between your understanding the current situation and what is actually happening in reality. 
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slackerr26 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 3:28pm
if your are going into bankruptcy in your printing business, wouldnt you spend more to try and attract new potential customers that would in turn supply you with enough cash flow to get you out of the red?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 3:24pm
Just to get back on track...
 
Biden says (and obviously Obama agrees since he hasn't distanced himself from the statement)
 
"We have to spend money to keep from going bankrupt."
 
 
Then this
 
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

Yes, sometimes you have to spend to avoid bankruptcy.  Seems pretty obvious.

 
 
It makes me wonder why anyone would take anything you say as credible...
 
That is lunacy, when you are about to go bankrupt, you certainly don't spend MORE. You try and pay off what you owe, and get out of the situation YOU YOURSELF put yourself into.
 
But, I see that personal responsibility doesn't exist in your universe.
 
Remind me to never let you become a customer of mine... Since you will just spend money you have no plan to pay back...
 
Guess that is why they are using IOU's in California now...
 
Good old liberal logic. (Oh, wait, you keep saying your not liberal... Yeah right....)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 12:41pm
Oh, well, I didn't realize your mom was reading my books...
 
Come on whale... give me a break. Why would I make up numbers?
 
My printing company is one of the largest in Butler county Ohio. I have customers all over the world... We are not a "copy shop" quick printer...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 12:20pm
I asked my mother - who I am home taking care of today because she just had knee surgery - about your numbers in the printing business.

She worked at a local, family-owned printing office and specialty stationary store for about 18 years, on the business side of things.

I also talked to a friend of hers who, for a very long time, sold bulk paper products to print houses.

They both said that your numbers seem a bit exaggerated, especially having a three percent to four percent profit margin.

-GRANTED-

They both have been out of the business for about 10 years, so take that as you will. The print shop my mom worked for got stripped pretty badly by a dueling Office Max / Office Depots close by that could do the same jobs cheaper. Less quality, but cheaper.




"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Maybe you should figure out why China can do it for $7,400 and do it that way?

Cry moar. If people can get it cheaper they are going to, it isn't the governments fault.

 
Nice...
 
Well, someday if you actually grow up and live the american dream by owning your own business. Then you will see that China is a communist country that doesn't play by the capitalist rules that America used to live by.
 
So, I can't get my paper for almost free, and get free shipping to the US and have employees that make $.10 per hour...
 
Why don't you learn about business and try and figure out a way to help instead of posting stuff like above?


Stop blaming the government for not making a profit.

I have no intentions of ever owning a business. Ever.
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

You want to really cut costs in health care...
 
 
Put a cap on medical lawsuits... Of course that idea is never floated, as most politicians are lawyers.
 


Actually, it is floated on a regular basis - mostly by lawyers.

There are many reasons why it usually doesn't get much traction, but one big one, frankly, is that the cost of medical lawsuits isn't that great.  Capping recovery wouldn't make much of a dent.

Yep, I said it.

This is true because the overwhelming majority of malpractice funds paid out, the costs that drive malpractice insurance, are payments that would NOT BE AFFECTED BY A CAP.  If a doctor cuts off the wrong leg, are we going to give stumpy $50 for a wooden leg?  No, we are going to buy him a fancy van and wheelchair and put an elevator in his house and compensate him for lost earnings.  That will remain the case even after any cap proposal.  What the caps would do is stop the jury from giving him a billion dollars in punitive damages.

And here's the rub:  giant jury awards are rare.  They get a lot of press, but they are rare.  You add them all up, and they are a drop in the bucket.  So unless you plan on capping direct compensatory damages for physical loss (which has not been seriously proposed by anybody as far as I know), then your lawsuit cap won't amount to a hill of beans.

Now, if you really want to reduce malpractice insurance, go to full-on socialized healthcare.  Now, when the guys loses the wrong leg, his van/chair/elevator is already covered by the socialized system, so no cost to the malpractice insurer.

Which leads to another reason why capping claims isn't a big solution:  malpractice insurance premiums are not the driver of high healthcare costs.  Yes, they are a big-dollar item.  But again, compare total US healthcare costs to total costs for any other country, and you see that the total malpractice premiums don't dent this difference.
 


Quote As for margin, I have lost money every month this year so far. In average over the past two years it is running around 3%.

The well is dry, printers are dying in my town weekly now, and the ones that are able to make it through this are the ones with deep pockets. That didn't buy new equipment and run up debt when things were good.
 
I've been in the printing industry since 94.
 
 
"Secondly, to imply that most printers are over-charging their clients and that profits are too high in this industry is simply to be out of touch with reality. Printing Industries of America studies indicate the average profit margin, from the smallest to the largest shop, is about 4% to 5%. So, if everyone dropped their prices by a whopping 5% there would be no profits at all. The reality is prices and margins are so low that itís hard to justify the high capital cost of equipment. In fact, return on investment has to increase, not decrease."


This just tells me that you may be making buggy whips, and it may be time to retool.


"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 12:09pm

Energy costs have skyrocketed in the past 4 years. I sure wouldn't want to lock in these inflated prices, peter.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Maybe you should figure out why China can do it for $7,400 and do it that way?

Cry moar. If people can get it cheaper they are going to, it isn't the governments fault.

 
Nice...
 
Well, someday if you actually grow up and live the american dream by owning your own business. Then you will see that China is a communist country that doesn't play by the capitalist rules that America used to live by.
 
So, I can't get my paper for almost free, and get free shipping to the US and have employees that make $.10 per hour...
 
Why don't you learn about business and try and figure out a way to help instead of posting stuff like above?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 11:59am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Oh, ok... My bad... As I can't read your "facial" expressions it is hard to follow your intent at times.


No problem.  Happens to all of us.
 
 
Quote Cap and trade is the current name used to debate the current bill in the house and senate. That is where the name comes from.
 
Here are a few of my arguments in a link so I don't have to retype...
 


The name/term "cap and trade" is a lot older than the current bill.  My point in the post that Whale copied was that cap and trade regimes have been in place for many types of emissions (and other commodities as well) for a long time, in many different places.  Yet the economy has not crashed.

In particular, cap and trade for SO2 was established in the US in 1990ish to address acid rain concerns.  Cap and trade for NOx has been in place since 2000ish.  In both cases, critics predicted doom and gloom (I seem to recall that the CEI was particularly pessimistic about the SO2 restriction), and in both cases the economic impacts have been minimal.

In both cases the CBO made cost predictions, and in both cases the actual cost impacts ended up being significantly LESS than the CBO predictions.  The CBO is a very conservative (in a budgeting sense of the word) office, and their projections are usually very thorough and pessimistic.

As to the Heritage Foundation link - interesting piece, and I will have to read it again slowly. 

As to your personal/business energy costs - how about this deal:  I will let you lock in your electricity price for the next 10 or 20 years.  Historically, utility rates go up about 4%-5% annually, but with great volatility, and the volatility itself causes great problems.  Instead, you sign up with me and I will get you electricity at a fixed price (or with a small escalator, whichever you prefer) for the next 10 or 20 years.  That fixed price will be a little higher than what you are paying now, but if utility prices keep going up at their current rate, they will pass my fixed rate in 5-8 years, and over the course of the 20 years you will come out way ahead.  And if your pessimism about energy prices is correct, you save even more.

Sound like a good deal?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 11:54am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Not to mention lots of people CHOOSE not to have insurance...


PP already got to the whole "We pay for them already" point.

However, as a side note, I'm pretty sure if you look at the actual numbers here, the number of people who "choose" to not have health insurance are either 1) Choosing because their spouse has a better coverage plan that they can ride on, 2) Are "choosing" not to take on the costs of health insurance because they would rather do things like buy groceries, eat, etc. This is not taking into consideration the very small minority of religious folk who don't take out policies because they consider it gambling.

I'm willing to bet that the number of people who actively make the choice to live their lives without insurance, even though they could afford it, is quite low.


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This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 11:50am
You want to really cut costs in health care...
 
 
Put a cap on medical lawsuits... Of course that idea is never floated, as most politicians are lawyers.
 
 
As for margin, I have lost money every month this year so far. In average over the past two years it is running around 3%.

The well is dry, printers are dying in my town weekly now, and the ones that are able to make it through this are the ones with deep pockets. That didn't buy new equipment and run up debt when things were good.
 
I've been in the printing industry since 94.
 
 
"Secondly, to imply that most printers are over-charging their clients and that profits are too high in this industry is simply to be out of touch with reality. Printing Industries of America studies indicate the average profit margin, from the smallest to the largest shop, is about 4% to 5%. So, if everyone dropped their prices by a whopping 5% there would be no profits at all. The reality is prices and margins are so low that itís hard to justify the high capital cost of equipment. In fact, return on investment has to increase, not decrease."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 11:42am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 
Exactly how am I as a business owner going to pay for the added cost of cap and trade to my costs when I currently have a profit margin of less than 3%...
 
I can't "increase" my costs to my customers, as they are already going over to china now to buy their large printing projects...
 
Last week I quoted a large print job to a customer right down the street from me. My "normal" cost was $28,000.
 
I need the work, so I quoted it for $18,000.
 
My paper cost alone was $10,000.
 
 
China got the job delivered to Florida for $7,400...
 
 
So, explain how I can "afford" cap and trade which will significantly increase my materials cost, as well as my electric to produce it?
 


First off, I second the sentiment of "cry moar."  We all face competition.  We deal.  If you can't underprice China then you deliver better product or service.  If you can't do that, then you should quit the business.  That's how capitalism works.

More specifically - if your price is already more than double the competition and you are still making sales, this tells me that your customers are choosing your product NOT primarily based on price.  Which tells me you have some room in your financials.

And as for your 3% profit margin, that seems rather odd.  You offered a customer a 40% discount just to land the deal, and you are running a 3% net margin?  You have customers who are obviously not particularly price-sensitive, and you have a 3% net margin?  Very odd.  3% margins are typically associated with commodity businesses, which yours appears not to be.

 
Quote Next, health care. The plan on the table


Allow me to say off the bat that I am not a fan of the plan on the table.  It may be an improvement, it may not.  But as I understand it, it is basically more of the same, just tinkering around the edges.  We need to scrap the entire current system, not mess around with tweaks.

Quote Not to mention lots of people CHOOSE not to have insurance... Now I and everyone else will be paying for those people as well.


Hate to break it to ya - you/we already ARE paying for those people.

What people seem not to understand is that we already HAVE socialized medicine in the US - we just have the world's worst and most expensive socialized medicine.  If we would just admit that to ourselves, then maybe we could get on to the business of fixing it.

Properly done healthcare reform WILL save you money, and lots of it.  The US spends two, three, four times as much money on healthcare as the other industrialized nations, while providing less and worse care.  If we took even the second-worst comprehensive healthcare system in the world and copied it, that would be a major improvement over what we have now, and would drastically cut costs.

The ONLY way healthcare reform does NOT save us buckets of money is if we just dink around and add complexity instead of doing a proper overhaul.

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 11:39am
What he should have said "was here are a few of the arguments I agree with/support."  Trying to claim that FE was taking credit for those arguments based on the wording of his post is as bad as him trying to claim PP insulted him and is unworthy of you.  (Unless of course you were being ironic; in which case you may ignore my post.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2009 at 11:34am
A few of YOUR arguments in a link?

When did you have time to get a PHD with all the bike riding, business running, and homeschooling?
Que pasa?


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