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Gallup Pro-life/choice

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2009 at 9:36pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Darur, why would the fetus have to die because the mother will? I am pretty sure it is possible for the fetus to live in a situation that the mother may die.



Fairly often, actually. A huge portion of live births, even just a century ago, left the mother dead, but the baby alive.





Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

perfectly legitimate hypothetical example used to prove a point?



Again, it's not a legitimate example, and doesn't prove a point, because it's not based in reality in any way.


That's like saying

"When aliens invade, should we sacrifice 999 fetus' to save 999 people?"





Eclampsia kills women because of a baby being inside of them. The only way to stop eclampsia is to remove the cause--- the baby. Be it by Cesarean or by abortion, the baby has to be removed to save the moms life.

Edited by Linus - 21 May 2009 at 9:38pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2009 at 9:41pm
You people are legitimately retarded if you don't get the point of what PP was saying.


Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2009 at 9:44pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

You people are legitimately retarded if you don't get the point of what PP was saying.




Oh bravo.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2009 at 9:49pm
We do get the point, but hypotheticals dont work in every situation. Abortion is a very black or white issue, and hypotheticals don't work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2009 at 9:54pm
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

We do get the point, but hypotheticals dont work in every situation. Abortion is a very black or white issue, and hypotheticals don't work.
Moral issues are only black and white if you let them be that way. The entire fact that a good portion of the population supports abortion rights if the life of the mother is in danger shows that it is not a black and white issue.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2009 at 9:57pm
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

You people are legitimately retarded if you don't get the point of what PP was saying.




Oh bravo.


Yes bravo. You are all dumb.

IF IF IF IF IF IF by some super crazy chance there was some ridiculous problem with a mother that she would die. If her baby could be killed to save her is that wrong?

It doesn't matter what the illness/disease is.


Edited by jmac3 - 21 May 2009 at 9:59pm
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2009 at 9:58pm
Originally posted by mbro mbro wrote:

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

We do get the point, but hypotheticals dont work in every situation. Abortion is a very black or white issue, and hypotheticals don't work.
Moral issues are only black and white if you let them be that way. The entire fact that a good portion of the population supports abortion rights if the life of the mother is in danger shows that it is not a black and white issue.


Yes.....it is. Either abortion is allowed, or it's not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2009 at 10:00pm
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Originally posted by mbro mbro wrote:

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

We do get the point, but hypotheticals dont work in every situation. Abortion is a very black or white issue, and hypotheticals don't work.
Moral issues are only black and white if you let them be that way. The entire fact that a good portion of the population supports abortion rights if the life of the mother is in danger shows that it is not a black and white issue.


Yes.....it is. Either abortion is allowed, or it's not.


Exactly. So why do people who don't want abortion to happen because they don't want to end a life think it is ok in some situations?
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2009 at 10:02pm
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Originally posted by mbro mbro wrote:

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

We do get the point, but hypotheticals dont work in every situation. Abortion is a very black or white issue, and hypotheticals don't work.
Moral issues are only black and white if you let them be that way. The entire fact that a good portion of the population supports abortion rights if the life of the mother is in danger shows that it is not a black and white issue.


Yes.....it is. Either abortion is allowed, or it's not.
Umm,most people support abortion rights in very limited circumstances. This is because of their morals. It doesn't matter if it is currently legally allowed or outlawed. It is a matter of personal moral judgment.
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There are shades of gray to every argument.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2009 at 10:08pm
Yes, but the argument is about abortion being ok. It either is allowed, or its not. There cannot be a grey area where "some abortions are ok"

It's a yes or no answer regardless of if your moral ground says "maybe"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2009 at 10:12pm
Choop, that is the issue.

Some people say OMG ABORTION IS BAD. They support it in certain circumstances though.
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2009 at 10:21pm
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Yes, but the argument is about abortion being ok. It either is allowed, or its not. There cannot be a grey area where "some abortions are ok"

It's a yes or no answer regardless of if your moral ground says "maybe"
No it's not. It is either abortion is allowed no matter what, abortion is allowed in certain situations or it is not allowed at all.

And the issue really isn't if it's allowed, it's if it is acceptable because we are debating morality, not law. The question is: Is it morally acceptable for a mother to get an abortion in X circumstance? That is why we debate hypothetical situations, we can break it down and find out where we draw the line morally, not legally.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2009 at 10:25pm
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Yes, but the argument is about abortion being ok. It either is allowed, or its not. There cannot be a grey area where "some abortions are ok"

It's a yes or no answer regardless of if your moral ground says "maybe"


 . . . What?

No it isn't.

Is killing ok always, yes or no?

War?

Stealing?

There's a reason laws exist for various situations.


Edited by Darur - 21 May 2009 at 10:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2009 at 10:37pm
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:



Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Yes, but the argument is about abortion being ok. It either is allowed, or its not. There cannot be a grey area where "some abortions are ok"

It's a yes or no answer regardless of if your moral ground says "maybe"
 . . . What?No it isn't.Is killing ok always, yes or no?War?Stealing?There's a reason laws exist for various situations.


Those are all completely different situations than an abortion, and totally irrelevant to this thread....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2009 at 10:40pm
NO THEY ARE NOT.

They are moral questions not legal ones.

They are all acceptable in certain situations but not in every situation. There are gray areas, that is what is debated.

I really cannot figure out what is so hard to understand about this.

ITT: Choopie is a dense as FE.

Edited by mbro - 21 May 2009 at 10:41pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2009 at 10:43pm
I guess I'm debating the legality, which is the real issue, and others are debating the morality, which everyone will have their own opinion, and get nowhere with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2009 at 10:47pm
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

I guess I'm debating the legality, which is the real issue, and others are debating the morality, which everyone will have their own opinion, and get nowhere with.
Even with legality there could be situations in the laws where this moral debate comes into play. If they allow abortions in the case of rape, incest or threats to the mothers life, then it is not an, is it legal or not situation. It is a, it's legal in these situations argument and that argument is framed by moral hypotheticals. they are what laws for sticky situations like this are based on. It is the entire basis for the legal debate around whether or not it shoudl be allowed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2009 at 10:52pm
Originally posted by mbro mbro wrote:

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

I guess I'm debating the legality, which is the real issue, and others are debating the morality, which everyone will have their own opinion, and get nowhere with.
Even with legality there could be situations in the laws where this moral debate comes into play. If they allow abortions in the case of rape, incest or threats to the mothers life, then it is not an, is it legal or not situation. It is a, it's legal in these situations argument and that argument is framed by moral hypotheticals. they are what laws for sticky situations like this are based on. It is the entire basis for the legal debate around whether or not it shoudl be allowed.


But what then stops a woman who doesn't want her baby from saying she was raped, or lie about who the father is? And if professional abortions aren't available, more desperate cases will turn to unsafe and illegal means of getting rid of the child, whether it's in the womb or not, whether that be dumping it in a river, dumpster, someones doorstop, etc. That's not even a hypothetical, those things happen where abortions cannot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2009 at 11:00pm
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Originally posted by mbro mbro wrote:

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

I guess I'm debating the legality, which is the real issue, and others are debating the morality, which everyone will have their own opinion, and get nowhere with.
Even with legality there could be situations in the laws where this moral debate comes into play. If they allow abortions in the case of rape, incest or threats to the mothers life, then it is not an, is it legal or not situation. It is a, it's legal in these situations argument and that argument is framed by moral hypotheticals. they are what laws for sticky situations like this are based on. It is the entire basis for the legal debate around whether or not it shoudl be allowed.


But what then stops a woman who doesn't want her baby from saying she was raped, or lie about who the father is? And if professional abortions aren't available, more desperate cases will turn to unsafe and illegal means of getting rid of the child, whether it's in the womb or not, whether that be dumping it in a river, dumpster, someones doorstop, etc. That's not even a hypothetical, those things happen where abortions cannot.
Which is part of the moral debate as well as the legal debate. You took your argument and went straight for the conclusion without engaging in the debate first. It should have gone something like this:

Endless bickering with hypothetical situations back and forth.

Finally someone says it should be made illegal in every situation or in certain situations.

You then counter with, well illegal or not mothers will still get them. Cite pre 1972 statistics about mothers driving over state lines to get abortions in other states or mothers getting unsafe abortions and dying, or cases of mothers lying about their circumstances.

Then there needs to be a counter punch of they should be treated like criminals or something of the similar then you contend that point and the debate goes on.

You reached the conclusion without the middle ground where the hypothetical comes into play.

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2009 at 11:06pm
It's because we've had this debate time and time again, and making abortions illegal is just a bad idea
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