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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2009 at 1:20pm
This is hilarious.

Also, separate from the bet:

Shoot someone and see if the ball breaks -- same distance.

This is the biggest reason the Flatline/Apex aren't as important as one might think; the ball's going so slow it doesn't break.  That said, with the paint changes (brittler shells) from when I used a Flatline last, this may not be true anymore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2009 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

What kind of angle will you be holding the gun at (approximately)? Just curious.


Seconded.

Do you have a protractor you could use to measure? Just our of curiosity, has nothing to do with the bet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2009 at 1:25pm
I'd assume he'd fire at a 45 degree angle, anything else would be a disadvantage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2009 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

I'd assume he'd fire at a 45 degree angle, anything else would be a disadvantage.


Even with the weird backspin thing from the barrel?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2009 at 1:27pm
WHat weird backspin? I am pretty sure the Apex just angles the balls like the flatline did. Only difference is you can change which way the angle is facing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pntbl freak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2009 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

WHat weird backspin? I am pretty sure the Apex just angles the balls like the flatline did. Only difference is you can change which way the angle is facing.


Huh?  Flatline puts backspin on the paintball.


Edited by pntbl freak - 17 April 2009 at 1:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2009 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:


Even with the weird backspin thing from the barrel?


I could be forgetting something, but the backspin and angle should be mostly unrelated, assuming he has it set to fly in a straight line. The trouble the apex barrel poses for trying to predict the ball's max distance comes from not knowing the angular speed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2009 at 1:31pm
It may, but that isn't why it shoots farther.

It shoots farther because the barrel is curved and makes it so the ball doesn't start to drop off as quick.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scotchyscotch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2009 at 1:33pm
Originally posted by pntbl freak pntbl freak wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

WHat weird backspin? I am pretty sure the Apex just angles the balls like the flatline did. Only difference is you can change which way the angle is facing.


Huh?  Flatline puts backspin on the paintball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2009 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

It may, but that isn't why it shoots farther.

It shoots farther because the barrel is curved and makes it so the ball doesn't start to drop off as quick.

Physics fail.

The curve imparts backspin, which generates lift as the ball travels. That's why a flatline set up wrong will actually cause a ball to curve upwards for the first second of travel, even if the marker is held level.

For this, he'll probably end up holding the marker at between 30-35 degrees, and will have to frig with the Apex settings a few times until he gets the optimal distance before the ball no longer generates enough lift, 'stalls', and plummets. 350+ ft is believable shooting at an upwards angle, thought I'm highly skeptical about shooting at a flat trajectory.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2009 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

It may, but that isn't why it shoots farther.

It shoots farther because the barrel is curved and makes it so the ball doesn't start to drop off as quick.


The real question is will the ball actually be able to fly farther with or without the barrel. On the one hand the backspin suggests a greater horizontal movement, but it also means less energy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2009 at 1:39pm
I'm quite sure he can get better range with the barrel than without. The lift  is essentially free added energy into the system. Yes, the ball comes out at the same muzzle velocity, but you'd find if you checked that slightly more air would have been fired to overcome the friction that imparts the backspin. That energy comes out as rotational energy instead of a vector energy, but it's still there, and it still works to his advantage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2009 at 1:44pm
I'm a little rusty on the flatline, but I was always under the impression that the spin caused torque, not lift, and it was that torque from too fast a spin which caused the sudden upwards shooting.

You are right though, I did forget that the ball will leave both barrels at the same speed, so no energy is lost, and rather the spun ball has greater energy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2009 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

I'm a little rusty on the flatline, but I was always under the impression that the spin caused torque, not lift, and it was that torque from too fast a spin which caused the sudden upwards shooting.


Air is "flowing faster" over the top of the ball, at least relatively.  Creates a low pressure pocket, creating lift.

I could be wrong though, I'm not sure that the air is in fact flowing faster there, even if the ball is spinning backwards.

Quote You are right though, I did forget that the ball will leave both barrels at the same speed, so no energy is lost, and rather the spun ball has greater energy.


This.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2009 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

I'm a little rusty on the flatline, but I was always under the impression that the spin caused torque, not lift, and it was that torque from too fast a spin which caused the sudden upwards shooting.

You are right though, I did forget that the ball will leave both barrels at the same speed, so no energy is lost, and rather the spun ball has greater energy.

No, it's not torque. What happens is because there's a backspin you get more wind resistance on the bottom of the ball than on the top, hence lift. The torque is equal in all ectors around the rotation, so it wouldn't cause it to shoot upwards.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2009 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

I'm a little rusty on the flatline, but I was always under the impression that the spin caused torque, not lift, and it was that torque from too fast a spin which caused the sudden upwards shooting.

You are right though, I did forget that the ball will leave both barrels at the same speed, so no energy is lost, and rather the spun ball has greater energy.

No, it's not torque. What happens is because there's a backspin you get more wind resistance on the bottom of the ball than on the top, hence lift. The torque is equal in all ectors around the rotation, so it wouldn't cause it to shoot upwards.


Well, what made me think there was no torque was the lack of anything to impose said torque.  Except the air, which is most likely of the same density over the face of the sphere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2009 at 2:08pm
I've noticed a little distance improvement on the flatline, at least shot holding the gun level. I've also noticed the ball drops rather quickly once the backspin fades. Maybe I'll get a marker out to test, I'll see if I can bum the 5D MKII from my dad so I can capture it, in HD. A5 or 98c?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2009 at 2:25pm
If you want to play with a flatline, get an Apex instead. You'll find it far more versatile. The flatline's awesome when you finally get it set up just so, but it's finnicky. No matter how you slice it though, the significant distance increases at no or low angle are very real.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Destruction Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2009 at 2:38pm
Who cares?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2009 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by Destruction Destruction wrote:

Who cares?

Pretty much everyone else in the thread is interested to at least some degree.

You little rebel you.
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