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stratoaxe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 March 2009 at 1:43am
Originally posted by Roll Tide Roll Tide wrote:

Do y'all think that the world would be a better place if everyone were to be atheist? Or does religion provided needed stability to the masses? I haven't really studied the effects of atheism on entire societies (USSR, Modern China, others...), but I think it might allow our global society to move forward. Wishful thinking, perhaps. 
 
Answering that question, and getting away from all of the technical arguments we got into with the thread, I don't think think there's a definitive to answer to what you're looking for.
 
The problem with studying Atheism in societies like you mentioned is, like I stated earlier in this thread, there are far more complex and deep reaching variables affecting any statistics you look at. You've got poverty levels, various government types imposing various laws and regulations, censorship, etc etc. I think it goes back to the point that there are more involved elements that go into making a society negative or positive, and trying to pinpoint one of them as the root cause, or as the most influentional variable, is like figuring out which piece of hay is making the bale lumpy.
 
I do agree that it would be pretty enlightening to see the results, and I'm sure there are social experiments out there that might somewhat satisfy your question.
 
*edit* I read this on a site run by and dedicated to atheists-
 
Originally posted by Unnamed Atheist Unnamed Atheist wrote:

Since atheism is simply a lack of belief in god(s), it really has no role in societal stability. One can be conservative and atheistic. In fact, one can be atheistic and be anything. It really does not mean anything other than a lack of god belief. It does not mean that an atheist does not accept many of the positive aspects in which religious people also happen to believe : mainly the Golden Rule.
 
Interesting.


Edited by stratoaxe - 26 March 2009 at 1:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 March 2009 at 2:41am
Originally posted by Roll Tide Roll Tide wrote:

Do y'all think that the world would be a better place if everyone were to be atheist? Or does religion provided needed stability to the masses? I haven't really studied the effects of atheism on entire societies (USSR, Modern China, others...), but I think it might allow our global society to move forward. Wishful thinking, perhaps. 


I have a hard time seeing society being better or worse without religion.

We have an innate tendency to group and segregate ourselves into smaller social units, be it because of religion, political side, wealth, race, gender, orientation or what have you.  People would still find ways to create "us" and "them" and differences of opinion and treatment would still occur. 

Not to mention I'm not exactly sure we could just do away with religion.  We are biologically wired to accept a higher power.  Sure, we see a vocal group of atheists on the internet, but the majority of society I would argue still practices or believes in some form of religion or a higher power.  I also doubt that atheists were less common in the past, just less vocal.

Its easy to look at society and imagine everyone is a reasonable, intelligent individual, and see universal collaboration and harmony as achievable, but biologically we are developed for small groups and will always have a tendency to fight each other.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 March 2009 at 10:47pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

WHy can't evolution and christianity be together? Quite a few scholars would disagree with you.
Several would agree with me however, like Charles Dawkins.
 
And basically my reasoning is, the bible says that all the creatures of the earth were created on day 6. Notice how it says they were all .created. (not evolved) on DAY 6, and I'm not thinking this many species with this many diversities can evolve in a day... wouldnt it just be easier to create em all from scratch?
 
Also, evolution removes the need of an omnipotent being controlling it all. Its elegance takes out the need for anyone to be controlling it. Saying that god just stuck a cell on the ground and waited for it to evolve into people so he could then have us worship him, is not a logical argument. Plus if we are just a product of evolution, why would we be special to him? We're just the same as other creatures, we have the same origins, we just have bigger brains. So why is it that we are the ones stuck with worshipping him (or else) and the dolphins can do whatever they want?
 
BTW, the differance between the old testament is, that pertains to the "old law" more specifically, the law of moses. The new testament starting with Jesus, takes out the old law and replaces it. If we cant trust parts of the old testament, why can we trust all of the new? Sure they were hand me down stories, but isnt the new testament the "inspired word of god"? I mean really, wouldnt he "inspire" them to know what really happened?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 March 2009 at 10:53pm
So Sneaky, you believe humans were alive 65 million years ago?

You believe that humans walked the earth with dinosaurs?
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 March 2009 at 11:06pm
no, not in the slightest?
 
Not really sure where you got that from, so please clarify.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 March 2009 at 11:08pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

no, not in the slightest?
 
Not really sure where you got that from, so please clarify.


Umm the fact that you believe ALL creatures were created by god on Day 6?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 March 2009 at 11:18pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

no, not in the slightest?
 
Not really sure where you got that from, so please clarify.


Umm the fact that you believe ALL creatures were created by god on Day 6?
no no no. I meant thats what the bible says.
 
That in no way reflects what I believe.
 
I cant really use evolution to undermind the bible, if the bible supports the possibility of evolution.
And it doesnt really... I was just using that as referance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 March 2009 at 11:20pm
I was under the impression you were not Christian, sneaky. I mean that as no attack or offense, merely curious what your intention with this post is (in that are you attacking religion or science?).

Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Several would agree with me however, like Charles Dawkins.


Is that the Charles Darwin/Richard Dawkins Zord?

I'll assume you're talking about Dawkins, seeing as Darwin was very nervous about presenting his writings at his time and would not likely try to antagonize the church. While I don't doubt Dawkin's intellect; him representing the beliefs of Christianity is like Jesse Jackson representing the Ku Klux Klan.

Quote
And basically my reasoning is, the bible says that all the creatures of the earth were created on day 6. Notice how it says they were all .created. (not evolved) on DAY 6, and I'm not thinking this many species with this many diversities can evolve in a day... wouldnt it just be easier to create em all from scratch?


The bible also says that God spontaniously turned people into pillars of salt.  Genesis is an allegory, it doesn't exaplain how the Earth and life began; it tells a story of how man was created for the sake of presenting a theme. 

Quote
Also, evolution removes the need of an omnipotent being controlling it all.


Precisely.

Evolution is entirely explainable and predictable as a theory, it removes any magic finger waving and for that it is a scientifically-reliable theory.

Now tell me why a Christian cannot say that God used Evolution to create life?

Quote
Saying that god just stuck a cell on the ground and waited for it to evolve into people so he could then have us worship him, is not a logical argument.


Nope, its not.  Thats why no one I know beleives that.

From a personal perspective, I tend to take a bit of a determininistic view of the Univserse, like Newton and Einstein.  That is to say that, since Newtonian physics tells us that if we know the position and velocity of every particle in the Universe at one time, we know the entire past, present and future of the Universe. So whats to say our Universeal constants were not set by a divine being, resulting in a Universe where life could exist by the process of Evolution.

Thats not exactly my beleif, but its fairly close.

Quote
Plus if we are just a product of evolution, why would we be special to him? We're just the same as other creatures, we have the same origins, we just have bigger brains. So why is it that we are the ones stuck with worshipping him (or else) and the dolphins can do whatever they want?


I'm not as elequent on those topics as others, but those are all anwers religion tries to answer.
 
Quote
BTW, the differance between the old testament is, that pertains to the "old law" more specifically, the law of moses. The new testament starting with Jesus, takes out the old law and replaces it. If we cant trust parts of the old testament, why can we trust all of the new? Sure they were hand me down stories, but isnt the new testament the "inspired word of god"? I mean really, wouldnt he "inspire" them to know what really happened?


The New Testament is primarily accounts of Jesus from letters of the Apostles. Like the Old Testament, we cannot verify all the accounts. Some of them may be based on fact, some may be entirely fictitious for the sake of making a point.  Both are allegories, the message is what matters, not the factual depiction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 March 2009 at 11:31pm
Woops, I did mean Richard Dawkins*
Messed up on that one.
(side note- Darwin actually studied to be a member of the clergy in his younger days, so he knew his way around a bible...)
 
And Darur, I do have quite a bit of respect for you. So I'll try my best for ya here Wink
 
Yes the bible says people were turned into pillars of salt.
And that  an alter doused with water was magically set on fire from a random fire ball from the sky.
And that an entire sea was magically parted.
 
But "God" is all powerfull apparently. So all that stuff could happen. To say that the bible hast to follow logic and all the miracles have to be exsplainable takes that whole god-thing away from "God" he essentially becomes a random spirit.
 
So whats the point of making all your creations evolve? When your only real focus is the human race, set on earth to basically stroke your ego, and all the rest of the creatures are basically set on earth for their uses, why take so long to have them evolve out? If you cant just go, eh human there then point and shoot. and *poof!* human!
He's not really an all powerfull being that the bible claims.


Edited by __sneaky__ - 26 March 2009 at 11:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 March 2009 at 11:47pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Woops, I did mean Richard Dawkins*
Messed up on that one.
 
And Darur, I do have quite a bit of respect for you. So I'll try my best for ya here Wink
 
Yes the bible says people were turned into pillars of salt.
And that  an alter doused with water was magically set on fire from a random fire ball from the sky.
And that an entire sea was magically parted.
 
But "God" is all powerfull apparently. So all that stuff could happen. To say that the bible hast to follow logic and all the miracles have to be exsplainable takes that whole god-thing away from "God" he essentially becomes a random spirit.


By the contrary, why would God build a Universe that is capable of being explained perfectly by Science, then decide "Aww shucks, what the hey!" and break his own rules? I would say such a view is more contrary to the existence of God, since hes actively deceiving his believers and violating his own creation.

It doesn't rule out miracles to suggest God plays by the rules.  You can look at them from several logical points of view.  Assuming a deterministic Universe, whats to say God didn't set the initial conditions just right to script in a flood on Earth? Or any number of miracles that we see daily? Another way to view miracles in a non-deterministic Universe is the mere inspiration the idea of God gives man, perhaps unlocking emotions or feelings or strengths inside to do miraculous things. Both of these views focus on the metaphysical, finding meaning in perfectly logical physical events.

These are just a few possible ways to view miracles in a logical context. I don't necessarily advocate either of these views, but they aren't unreasonable. 


Quote
So whats the point of making all your creations evolve? When your only real focus is the human race, set on earth to basically stroke your ego, and all the rest of the creatures are basically set on earth for their uses, why take so long to have them evolve out? If you cant just go, eh human there then point and shoot. and *poof!* human!
He's not really an all powerfull being that the bible claims.


The same argument for miracles applies here.  Why would God break his own rules when a perfectly logical method of creating life exists, in this case evolution?  By letting us evolve, the Universe plays itself out logically.

As for why we are here, thats another question for religion I wouldn't pretend to know the answer to.  Perhaps we are just random fluke, the outcome of one of an infinite many number of parallel worlds; or perhaps we are the outcome of a creatror with a purpose. Which ever you beleive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2009 at 3:00pm
I get your thought process here.
And don't take this as an attack or anything, because it's not.
Its just basically my views on it.
 
If the bible is supposed to be the word of god.
It hast to all be true, otherwise, it's not the word of an all knowing sin-free god. (even if he didnt write the words down himself)
So if the Genises account says thats how the world was formed. From a christian perspective, you accept the bible over anything else. (it basically says that several times in the bible, new testament included)
So I don't see how christians can say, oh well I know the bible says it was all created in a week and people were placed here, not evolved. It even says that woman was made from a rib and some dirt.
 
I just dont see how they can rationalize it to themselves that, if they are going to follow the bible...
They reject part of what the bible says, even if it is for, in large part, proven science.
 
But thats just my $.02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2009 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

I just dont see how they can rationalize it to themselves that, if they are going to follow the bible...
They reject part of what the bible says, even if it is for, in large part, proven science.
 
 
 
See the problem is guys make huge generalizations about "evolution".
 
When they are talking about a ton of things in that kind of statement. (many of which we have discussed in lenght on this forum).
 
First, Macro-evolution
 
major evolutionary transition from one type of organism to another occurring at the level of the species and higher taxa.
 
1. Macro-evolution is a scam. Never proven, tons of "guessing" as to how it "could" happen, but zero proof. No one has ever shown a transitional fossil of a fish that turned into a man, or vise versa. Lots of "false" attempts, which have been disproven with the introduction of DNA...
 
Kind of like global warming...
 
Science NEEDs macro-evolution, and everyones "acceptance" of it, to Prove God doesn't exist...
 
 
Then you have
 
Micro-evolution
 
1. evolutionary change involving the gradual accumulation of mutations leading to new varieties within a species.
2. minor evolutionary change observed over a short period of time.
 
This has been proven, and it agrees with scripture, as the Bible discusses how to improve herds, by breeding techniques, and how things adapt...
 
 
 
 
But, all to often these two things are clumped together... And claimed that they are both fact. and not questioned...
 
 
Which is blatantly false. No good discussion can occur when the definitions of these terms are glossed over.
 
 
I personally believe the bible, I believe it is foolish to think that the earth is billions of years old.
 
The proof is all around us. But, most chose to ignore it and follow the masses. (or perceived masses, if you look at actual polls on the subject...)
 
 
But, lets ignore the "facts" as usual on this board...
 
 
 
I believe that dinosaurs roamed the earth with humans. There is tons of proof to back this up, but evolution says this can't be true, therefore "science" chooses to ignore it.
 
Interested?
 
Think about this. If you die, how long before your blood breaks down to dust? 5 years?
10 years?
 
1,000 years?
 
10,000, years?
 
Science tell you that it is less than 10,000 years for sure... But, how does science explain red blood cells in dinosaur bones in museums around the country... These are 70 MILLION years old according to the "wise ones" of our society...
 
 
Logic tells you they aren't that old...
 
 
How about ancient art that shows "dinosaurs" back when they were called dragons, (remember, they were discussed in detail in the Bible too...) Science has just recently "renamed" them "dinosaurs"...
 
 
Yeah, I hear you, dragons don't exist...
 
Tell that to the guy that was killed by a dragon this week...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
They tremble at my name...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2009 at 5:35pm
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

I get your thought process here.
And don't take this as an attack or anything, because it's not.
Its just basically my views on it.
 
If the bible is supposed to be the word of god.
It hast to all be true, otherwise, it's not the word of an all knowing sin-free god. (even if he didnt write the words down himself)
So if the Genises account says thats how the world was formed. From a christian perspective, you accept the bible over anything else. (it basically says that several times in the bible, new testament included)
So I don't see how christians can say, oh well I know the bible says it was all created in a week and people were placed here, not evolved. It even says that woman was made from a rib and some dirt.
 
I just dont see how they can rationalize it to themselves that, if they are going to follow the bible...
They reject part of what the bible says, even if it is for, in large part, proven science.
 
But thats just my $.02


You're assuming that Christians take the bible as literal fact.  As I've said before and I'll say again, the bible is allegory.  Yes, some of the stories are based in fact: There are numerous accounts of a large flood from all over the Mesopotamian region that fit with the bible.  There do seem to be two cities which match at least the physical description of Sodom and Gomorrah and its ruin.  However, that doesn't mean God covered the whole Earth in water for 40 days, or that cities were obliterated for sin.  Most likely the writers of the bible drew inspiration from these accounts to attach meaning.

The bible is not a Scientific account of this world.  Its a book of stories to share moral views and guidelines for living.  The meaning in the bible is inspired by God, and interpreted by his followers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2009 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 
 
Yeah, I hear you, dragons don't exist...
 
Tell that to the guy that was killed by a dragon this week...
 
 



This just proved that your whole argument is flawed. I don't know if you realize that or not.
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jerseypaint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2009 at 2:40pm
Sneaky. You're taking the Bible more seriously then most Christians. You'll actually find very rarely that educated Christians take anything from the Old Testament for face value. Hell, the whole thing was written down after hundreds of years of oral tradition. That is a hell of a long game of telephone, facts are bound to get lost, but the inspired message remained the same.

Back to evolution, evolution does not take God out of the picture or diminish His greatness. He made the universe, thats pretty powerful to me. And planning these "random" mutations and occurrences in order to create His world is even more amazing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrenalinejunky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 March 2009 at 9:23am
Originally posted by jerseypaint jerseypaint wrote:

Sneaky. You're taking the Bible more seriously then most Christians. You'll actually find very rarely that educated Christians take anything from the Old Testament for face value. Hell, the whole thing was written down after hundreds of years of oral tradition. That is a hell of a long game of telephone, facts are bound to get lost, but the inspired message remained the same.


i suppose i could give you a history lesson about exactly how that game of telephone was played, but i'll just simply leave it at this - if you doubt the source from which your religion is based, why would you believe in that religion?

one thing i've never understood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrenalinejunky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 March 2009 at 9:26am
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

]Also, evolution removes the need of an omnipotent being controlling it all.


says who?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrenalinejunky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 March 2009 at 9:33am
Originally posted by __sneaky__ __sneaky__ wrote:

Just because the Old Testament was voided by the New according to the bible


reference?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrenalinejunky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 March 2009 at 9:37am
Originally posted by jerseypaint jerseypaint wrote:


You've never studied the Old Testament have you? Its not literal. They uses parables, allegories, and psalms. But that doesn't mean its false, its just not literal. And when dating the Old Testaments books they use the symbols and mentioned figures to try and figure a time line.


its not? all of it? based on what research?

Quote
And evolution can be harmonious with Christianity. In fact, it is. The Catholic Church has accepted evolution. No where in the Bible does it say that man never evolved, all it says is that God is responsible for the creation of man and the universe, not that he didn't use evolution to create man.


the catholic church has also had tons of other views not founded in and contradictory to the bible, supposedly the basis of their religion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrenalinejunky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 March 2009 at 9:42am
Originally posted by Hysteria Hysteria wrote:

Strato, you say that religion doesn't impede scientific progress, but
for the past 8 years stem cell research was given NO federal funding
due to religious reasons.  Can you even imagine where we would be today
if scientists were able to have the funding they needed to adequately
research stem cells for almost an entire decade?


not entirely true.

funding was given to some embryonic stem cell lines that had already existed prior to 2001.

sorry, nit picking.
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