Tippmann Pneumatics Inc. Homepage
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Religion (long)

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 8>
Author
Tical3.0 View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar
this space for rent

Joined: 02 September 2008
Location: The Beer Store
Status: Offline
Points: 1589
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tical3.0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 1:54pm
In a thread full of garbage, few stand out that I don't feel like killing .Eville you pretty much said what I couldn't, do to my extream retardation and how utterly flustered I get when the topic of religion is brought up.
Back to Top
Reb Cpl View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
2010 Worst Luck award winner

Joined: 10 June 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 14004
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by Tical3.0 Tical3.0 wrote:

In a thread full of garbage, few stand out that I don't feel like killing .Eville you pretty much said what I couldn't, do to my extream retardation and how utterly flustered I get when the topic of religion is brought up.


Except what he said didn't make sense.

How is this thread garbage? Because you don't agree with what I'm saying? Because you couldn't make an argument lucid enough to make a point without getting picked on?

I LIKE these threads. It gives me a chance to be argumentative and nobody can prove/disprove anything anybody is saying- its all strictly hypothetical and theoretical.




Back to Top
IMPULS3. View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar
Guested

Joined: 07 November 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 579
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IMPULS3. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 2:14pm
Why is the holy'st place on earth, the bloodiest?

Religion is a JOKE
Back to Top
Roll Tide View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member

NEVER had a STRIKE!

Joined: 18 September 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2652
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roll Tide Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

Couple of points that are silly.

Firstly, to my knowledge, President Bush never invoked God as a reason for going to war in Iraq.  We may have done so for causes such as Freedom or WMDs, but it was hardly a crusade in the literal sense.

Secondly, Choopie,  going by your graph how many points does Calculus give us?  Is that just a flat 20, or does it get a double point bonus?  Representing scientific advancement as a quantitative figure is plain silly.  Whats more, the vast amounts of research done in mathematics, particularly algebraic and linear functions, was done in that hole, by both European and Arabic mathematicians.  The myth that the dark ages were devoid of advances is just that.

Now I'll share my thoughts. I'm just going to discuss if religion is good or bad for mankind, not if god exists or what have you.

While I agree religion has lead to many terrible genocides and events, it has also inspired many advances in human society.  The works of classical Greek philosophy would have been lost forever were it not for Islam.  Modern day mathematics, chemistry and science for that matter would be impossible without the support of Islam.  Christian Monasteries and religious Universities were the sites of virtually all major advances in Astronomy and Biology from 1000 AD to 1800AD.  The very notion of the gene was developed by Mendel, a Monk.  His research was one of the corner stones of understanding DNA.

Not to mention all of the tremendous advances in human thought that religion brought.  The works of Da Vinci and Michelangelo, for one thing.  Religion has often been sited as the motivation for Europe to move on after losing over a third of its population to the plague.

Now these are just a few examples of the many benefits it has brought to mankind.  Even today, great leaders such as Gandhi and the Dalai Lama are inspired by religion.

The trouble is, when people group together and unite, groups polarize as predicted by psychology.  This leads to extremes which can often completely forget the original idea that untied them.  In this way religion has been the root of some of the worst genocides in history.

The trouble with religion in the modern day world is many of the original intents have been forgotten.  In example, I'll discuss Christianity.  A prime example is a rule followed by some sects still to eat fish on Friday.  That law is not for any spiritual purpose, it was created for the good of fishermen who were having a hard time selling their catch.  The church decreed its members should eat fish to help the fishermen. Other examples include the kosher system which was based on observations that people who didnt eat pork or shellfish and bathed were healthier, because often those animals had parasites or other problems with them. Religion also provided man with explanations for things they couldn't understand, such as life, death, why we are here, and more. The bible is filled with allegories, some of which are based on fact and some of which are creations of the original author, but all of which are meant to convey a point to the reader.  The bible is not meant to be taken as fact, but rather for its meaning.

As religion has developed, its taken many commonsense notions from the time it developed and applied them to its doctrine.  In example, the ideas of Ptolemy's earth-centered Universe were adapted to explain the location of heaven and hell.  Copernicus's heliocentric universe upset this view, which caused resistance from the church.  The "rift" between science and religion is the end result of trying to explain the physical with the metaphysical and vice versa.  When we try to mix the two, we forget the meaning of religion.

My point with all this?  Religion itself is Philosophy, and few can argue that the ultimate message of religion is "bad".  Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself (Christianity), Live a life of moderation (Buddhism), Regardless of your position in life, do your part and lead your life and you will be rewarded (Badly worded Hinduism).  I could go on.  The problem is, religion takes in so many nuts who take these views and twist them into their own, or wind up forgetting their original beliefs, or what the original philosophy is.

The philosophy itself is fine; its when you take a bunch of people, feed these beliefs to them, and let them go wild that things get ugly.
Good post. A few things: Dubya did not invoke God, but if you listened to him defend the war in his last years, he certainly justified it through religion. "God wants everyone in the world to be free." While I agree that the main doctrines of the world religions are peaceful and moral in theory, they are violent, primitive things in practice. If all Christians were actually Christ-like and all Muslims followed the Koran's more peaceful messages, we wouldn't have a problem. Whale said that he's fine with religion as long as it doesn't get involved in politics. I agree 100%, but I also realize that as long as we have religion (and thus religious fundamentalists), that will never happen. The terrible things done in the name of religion outweigh the benefits that it brings to our modern society. I will not argue that faith was critical in the development of our world. I simply believe that humans have outgrown religion.

To the person who said calling religion a fairy tale is "conceited and arrogant": far more conceited and arrogant things have been done in the name of God. Get over it. 





<Removed sig for violation of Clause 4 of the New Sig Rules>
Back to Top
Tical3.0 View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar
this space for rent

Joined: 02 September 2008
Location: The Beer Store
Status: Offline
Points: 1589
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tical3.0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 2:16pm
This thread was garbage before you chimed in there champ.


 
Back to Top
Benjichang View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
I pwned Leroy Jenkins!

Joined: 03 January 2004
Location: R'lyeh
Status: Offline
Points: 12518
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 2:21pm
Way to contribute, Tical.
Back to Top
Reb Cpl View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
2010 Worst Luck award winner

Joined: 10 June 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 14004
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by Tical3.0 Tical3.0 wrote:

This thread was garbage before you chimed in there champ.




And its worse for you having put in your half a cent. Your entire MO seems to be "Be as negative as possible to anyone I can."
Why don't you for a change engage in the conversation, registering actual thought out opinions rather than spewing out one liner drivel that makes you much more irritating than amusing.

Hows that for garbage?

 


Back to Top
Tical3.0 View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar
this space for rent

Joined: 02 September 2008
Location: The Beer Store
Status: Offline
Points: 1589
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tical3.0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

Way to contribute, Tical.
Cry
Back to Top
Peter Parker View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 March 2003
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 998
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 2:27pm
Two thoughts:

1. Non-human primates have fairly elaborate rules and social codes - aka "morality." Must we therefore conclude that Bonobos are religious?

2. I generally agree with Darur's first post. Religion unfairly gets a bad rap.

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

Pop Quiz: What do all the Framers of the Constitution have in common?
Back to Top
Tical3.0 View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar
this space for rent

Joined: 02 September 2008
Location: The Beer Store
Status: Offline
Points: 1589
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tical3.0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by Tical3.0 Tical3.0 wrote:

This thread was garbage before you chimed in there champ.




And its worse for you having put in your half a cent. Your entire MO seems to be "Be as negative as possible to anyone I can."
Why don't you for a change engage in the conversation, registering actual thought out opinions rather than spewing out one liner drivel that makes you much more irritating than amusing.

Hows that for garbage?

 
Yeah my whole MO and the reason why I am on this forum is to be a negative nancy to anyone I can. I said I agreed with what Eville said Do you want me to re-write what he typed so you can understand that I belive Man himself chooses what is right and wrong and not some religion and some paper back novel?


and lol at your How's that for garbage. I bet you really banged that into your keyboard.

Back to Top
Reb Cpl View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
2010 Worst Luck award winner

Joined: 10 June 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 14004
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 2:39pm
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

Two thoughts:

1. Non-human primates have fairly elaborate rules and social codes - aka "morality." Must we therefore conclude that Bonobos are religious?


Beats me. I was only providing possibilities rather than anything concrete.

LOL


Back to Top
Reb Cpl View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
2010 Worst Luck award winner

Joined: 10 June 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 14004
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by Tical3.0 Tical3.0 wrote:

Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by Tical3.0 Tical3.0 wrote:

This thread was garbage before you chimed in there champ.




And its worse for you having put in your half a cent. Your entire MO seems to be "Be as negative as possible to anyone I can."
Why don't you for a change engage in the conversation, registering actual thought out opinions rather than spewing out one liner drivel that makes you much more irritating than amusing.

Hows that for garbage?

 
Yeah my whole MO and the reason why I am on this forum is to be a negative nancy to anyone I can. I said I agreed with what Eville said Do you want me to re-write what he typed so you can understand that I belive Man himself chooses what is right and wrong and not some religion and some paper back novel?


and lol at your How's that for garbage. I bet you really banged that into your keyboard.



LOL


Back to Top
Tical3.0 View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar
this space for rent

Joined: 02 September 2008
Location: The Beer Store
Status: Offline
Points: 1589
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tical3.0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by Tical3.0 Tical3.0 wrote:

Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by Tical3.0 Tical3.0 wrote:

This thread was garbage before you chimed in there champ.




And its worse for you having put in your half a cent. Your entire MO seems to be "Be as negative as possible to anyone I can."
Why don't you for a change engage in the conversation, registering actual thought out opinions rather than spewing out one liner drivel that makes you much more irritating than amusing.

Hows that for garbage?

 
Yeah my whole MO and the reason why I am on this forum is to be a negative nancy to anyone I can. I said I agreed with what Eville said Do you want me to re-write what he typed so you can understand that I belive Man himself chooses what is right and wrong and not some religion and some paper back novel?


and lol at your How's that for garbage. I bet you really banged that into your keyboard.



LOL
Smile
Back to Top
stratoaxe View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
And my axe...

Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6831
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 3:35pm
Can we have a new rule for invoking Bush in a religious convo, kind of like Godwin's? When I hear Bush invoked in religion, I really do want to lock the thread right there, because it's reached rock bottom.
 
I don't the issue here is the origin of religion, or the legitimacy of it, but the negative / positive effect it's had on society.
 
Again, I believe that religion has been the scapegoat throughout the ages. War go good? Give God credit. War go bad? Blame the other people's god. Man uses religion as a crutch, when things go good he gives Him credit, when things go bad they blame themselves for not being pious enough. It gives them a sense that not everything is dependent upon self motivation, or control of your life.
 
That being said, let me clarify my relgious view. I'm of Christian belief, but I don't believe that God actively works in the world in an obvious manner. I dont' believe that God allows people to die, or that He is always to credit for allowing them to live. More than miraculous cures I believe more in life being incredibly random, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. My belief in God gives me Help dealing with life, but it doesn't change life for me.
 
Why do I say that? To explain how I see religion on the whole. While there are the fanatics out there, I think that many people that claim religion are simply using it to sell something to the masses. Use war for instance. It's obligatory to ask God for help in time of war-that doesn't mean that that war was a religious war, it means that religion was invoked.
 
I don't think you can blame Islam for the current terrorist actions around the world, I think you can blame an anarchist anti-government agenda that is cloaked with religion to sell it the third world masses. The unfortunate fact is that the religious and the atheist alike buy into it, and black the eye of religion.
 
 
Back to Top
Eville View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - 5/19, Filter-dodge

Joined: 19 September 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 3147
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

I think you're putting the cart before the horse, strictly in an effort to argue with me. Its okay, I'll play.

You're mixing necessity with morality.

Not spearing your 'friend' in the chest in an effort to help you hunt isn't morality, that's allowing survival because its in your own best interest...and rarely does one make a moral decision because its in their own (earthly) best interests.

Then, not killing your friend because you think you will suffer eternally for it is not morals either, its in your own best interest not to.  I would go as far as to argue that as an example of bad morals. 

Not killing you because I need you isn't moral. Not killing you because its wrong is. Until religion came along and gave people the reason to believe that killing was, in fact wrong- there was no concept of morality. You need a firm system of beliefs established (artificially or through divine inspiration) in order to start setting up guidelines for moral codes.

I need to find a synonym for 'morality'

But, religion doesnt teach you what not to do under the pretense that it is wrong, it teaches you what not to do under the pretense that you will be punished for it later.  Your survival in the afterlife hinges on what you do during life, so you are only not spearing people for your own survival, which according to you, is not morality. 

Back to Top
choopie911 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Commie Canuck

Joined: 01 June 2003
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 30745
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:


It would seem to me that religious views give a moral backing to any society, regardless of religion. If your people fear religion, and you endorse that religion, you gain the respect of society.

Wait, so I'm less moral because I don't believe in an invisible man that watches me? I'm not going to be an immoral person just because of my beliefs, that just doesn't make sense.


You took that completely the wrong way.


From a government standpoint if the people fear a religion, and you endorse it, you gain the respect and therefore the following of your people.


In other words religion has been, for better or for worse, a way of keeping order to the masses by governments throughout history.


As I said in the other part of my post, I don't believe that believing in God gives you a set of morals, but justifies a set of morals you already had.


In other word what people label as Christianity when it comes to the rules of living is really just another moral code, no different from any other.


Every atheist has (or at least should) have a moral code that they live by. The hypocrisy I see in atheists or agnostics that choose to blame religion for the problems of the world is that they themselves are bound to their own personal code of ethics, they just chose to remove the God label, and in their minds receive +10 intelligence points.


I've seen it with friends, even relatives and girlfriends, but in the end Christianity's rules of living are simply a moral code.


How is an athiest having a sense of right and wrong hypocritical in the least? Once again, god doesn't have to be the reason for right vs. wrong. As already stated my values tend to be based on whats good for me, and those around me/ mankind. Mentioned previously as well, diests believe in a greater power, but not heaven/ hell per say:
"Deism is a religious and philosophical belief that a supreme natural God exists and created the physical universe, and that religious truths can be arrived at by the application of reason and observation of the natural world. Deists generally reject the notion of supernatural revelation as a basis of truth or religious dogma."

Also, yes for a long time religion HAS been a motivator by governments to have a moral public, however once again the US was formed on the idea of seperating church and state. Obviously that doesn't happen as much anymore, and is once again a hot topic. I too believe that they should be unrelated.


Back to Top
stratoaxe View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
And my axe...

Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6831
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 3:54pm
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:



How is an athiest having a sense of right and wrong hypocritical in the least? Once again, god doesn't have to be the reason for right vs. wrong. As already stated my values tend to be based on whats good for me, and those around me/ mankind. Mentioned previously as well, diests believe in a greater power, but not heaven/ hell per say:


 
And again, I didn't imply that. I said atheists that feel Christianity is an imposing religion with controlling morals is hypocrisy, because atheists, just like Christians, define themselves by a moral code, they simply choose not to drop the God label on it.
 
I have no problem with atheists, many of my friends, my girlfriend included, are atheists. I have a problem with the attitude that being an atheist makes you intellectually superior to the religious for their beliefs.
Back to Top
choopie911 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Commie Canuck

Joined: 01 June 2003
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 30745
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by stratoaxe stratoaxe wrote:

Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

How is an athiest having a sense of right and wrong hypocritical in the least? Once again, god doesn't have to be the reason for right vs. wrong. As already stated my values tend to be based on whats good for me, and those around me/ mankind. Mentioned previously as well, diests believe in a greater power, but not heaven/ hell per say:


And again, I didn't imply that. I said atheists that feel Christianity is an imposing religion with controlling morals is hypocrisy, because atheists, just like Christians, define themselves by a moral code, they simply choose not to drop the God label on it.


I have no problem with atheists, many of my friends, my girlfriend included, are atheists. I have a problem with the attitude that being an atheist makes you intellectually superior to the religious for their beliefs.



Back to Top
Rofl_Mao View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
request denied

Joined: 27 October 2008
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3192
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 4:04pm
Christianity is not for morals it's for having a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. Morals come after acceptance that Jesus died to buy your way to heaven for you. All you have to do is believe that and receive eternal life. May seem silly but what do you have to lose? That's my philosophy. I don't like to call my relationship with God, Religion, also. http://www.notreligion.com/  <--- explains everything.
Back to Top
stratoaxe View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
And my axe...

Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6831
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stratoaxe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:

Christianity is not for morals it's for having a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. Morals come after acceptance that Jesus died to buy your way to heaven for you. All you have to do is believe that and receive eternal life. May seem silly but what do you have to lose? That's my philosophy. I don't like to call my relationship with God, Religion, also. http://www.notreligion.com/  <--- explains everything.
 
But see, Christians that believe that God is just a buyout for heaven haven't studied the Bible. Jesus was the sacrifice to pay for your sins. It's your job to stop sinning at that point, and that's where the moral code comes in. Christians are supposed to live by a moral code, not do whatever feels good and feel like Jesus loves them either way so it doesn't matter.
 
And yes, I was raised not to use the term religion as well, but for this discussion we're not talking about you're or my Christianity, we're talking about religion on the whole.
 
This isn't a discussion of the ins and outs, or the justification of Christianity, it's a discussion of how religion on the whole as impacted society.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 8>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 10.03

This page was generated in 0.219 seconds.