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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 11:44am
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Atheism is nothing more than another modifacation on the belief system, and within Atheism's belief system there also are faults, and Atheism will take its place in the history of "religions", and the believers will move on to the next belief standard required to explain the world around them, as the world again changes.


Atheism has only one tenant. There are no gods. I don't care what religions come around to replace the religions of today, there will always be the people that profess that. The problem in your argument is that you're equating atheism with a whole slew of other belief systems, as if atheism is the entirety of those systems.

There are religious atheists who don't believe in deities but do believe in supernatural occurrences. There are those who view earth as having a conscious, as if it was living, but not a god. There are secular humanists and cultural Jews and all these other belief systems, in which atheism is only a prerequisite that does not define the rest of the system.

In all cases, there is one thing that remains constant. The quest to discover the world around us and to govern that world, whether by religious people or not, will only be done properly without the consideration of deities. The second superstition is thrown into an argument, facts start getting distorted. And that is what I argue against here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 11:51am
I may have not qualified my statement of "belief system" clearly enough. Yes, people believe in many "pratices" to explain the world around them. And communicate those "practices" in many forms. Not just a "religious" system but many other "practices" that have a definate effect on the belief system of the society. Atheisim and True Earth are pratices with no diety but a standard of belief, fundimentally a religion based on: A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices, often with a supernatural or transcendent quality, that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power or truth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 12:08pm
My personal opinion is that I am fine with religions of all sorts and manners, as long as they don't attempt to get involved in government. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 12:15pm
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things .


Why? What drives them to do the 'good things' in the first place? That entire saying smacks of being an incomplete thought derived by some cynic who thought it was cool to break from traditional religion, but still believes in the core values of it, without admitting where they came from in the first place.

Its as laughable as saying that you believe in orange juice, but deny the existence of the fruit from which it was derived.







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 12:28pm
I don't have a problem believing morality exists without a higher being.

edit- my post was a quote for someone else, btw


Edited by Benjichang - 24 March 2009 at 12:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

I don't have a problem believing morality exists without a higher being.


How though? By what standards do you judge what is moral and what isn't? What part of human existence was able to birth a concept of morality?

Aside from that, what drives one to make moral decisions? If there is no God, and all religions are hokey mind control systems, how come people still choose the moral thing to do?

What is the benefit of making moral decisions if there is nothing beyond what you can see and touch? If there's nothing at all, then why do people bother being 'good?'

It is my belief that any decisions made because they're the 'right thing to do' is a declaration of a belief in something you cannot explain or often fully comprehend, despite public declaration otherwise.

 

 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 12:38pm
So, people acting a certain way out of fear of eternal punishment is a more suitable source of morality?

Morality occurs as a function of society. Treat others as you would like to be treated makes social sense. I don't think we need the Bible to point that one out to us.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tical3.0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:



Morality occurs as a function of society. Treat others as you would like to be treated makes social sense. I don't think we need the Bible to point that one out to us.
Truth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 12:47pm
An interesting bit of history. Primitive man had no laws or a comman sense of morality. Survival at the expense of others was the law of the lands. Religions were the foundations of all law in all of the cultures of the world. If organized religion never occured we could possibly still be a purely predatory specis and still in a nomatic and savage world.
From the Magna Carta to the US Constitution religious beliefs have driven western culture, and even in the East from the Quran to the Hindu Texts thier laws are based on religious beliefs.
As western man replaces his "god" with technology, and our culture becomes more violent as moral values decline based again on a survival of the fitest mentality, many questions arise.
And personally I have seen many men who claim to be atheists, praying under fire, and visiting a chaplain before battle, is it hedging thier bets or is thier true belief system coming through. I was raised Roman Catholic, and no longer profess that faith, but I beleive in a higher power, for in my "adventures" something needs to explain why I am still here. As I led, standing in the open, directing my soldier's, someone was watching over me, was it God, will never know till that day comes when I possibly climb those stairs and stand before the Man, but till then I am hedging my bet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

So, people acting a certain way out of fear of eternal punishment is a more suitable source of morality?

Morality occurs as a function of society. Treat others as you would like to be treated makes social sense. I don't think we need the Bible to point that one out to us.


I never mentioned the bible. I never mentioned Christianity.- A function of society? Go back further. What drives society in this direction as opposed to "Every man for himself?" Why is it so hard to believe that there's some sort of religious backing even to the creation of your precious societies? Perhaps the very concepts that define and govern your society stem from ancient religious beliefs- beliefs set up by something more complex than you can understand, or even are willing to admit the existence of.

You mention 'eternal punishment' but what about 'eternal reward?' Constantly viewing the negatives of religion will never enable you to understand it.


Please don't interpret what I'm saying as being the rantings of a religious lunatic. I'm a lousy Christian, always have been, probably always will be. But it sort of amuses me when someone can openly denounce the teachings of any and all major religions without even making an attempt to understand them first.

Ones beliefs are their own. No priest, shaman, or voodoo priestess can serve as an appropriate median between one person and their personal beliefs- or lack thereof. You can believe that the radiator will serve as your ultimate salvation if you put your genitals to it often enough, I don't really care. But when you tell me that MY beliefs are what's wrong with society today.....that doesn't make sense. In fact, one COULD argue that what remains of organized religion in this day and age are what's preventing society from flying apart at the seams if you think about it hard enough.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:


What is the benefit of making moral decisions if there is nothing beyond what you can see and touch? If there's nothing at all, then why do people bother being 'good?


Upholding of the social contract? Upholding the cooperation of society and maintaining order come to mind also.

Dozens upon dozens of reasons why, with hundreds of years worth of philosophy, social and political theory.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:


What is the benefit of making moral decisions if there is nothing beyond what you can see and touch? If there's nothing at all, then why do people bother being 'good?


Upholding of the social contract? Upholding the cooperation of society and maintaining order come to mind also.

Dozens upon dozens of reasons why, with hundreds of years worth of philosophy, social and political theory.


What if its the other way around? Societal contract and cooperation could be a manifestation of morality, not the reason for it.

 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 1:12pm
I'd say that societal contract and cooperation developed originally as a means of survival. As societies became more complex, moral codes became necessary for society to function. Human interdependence needs some kind of morality to work.

Different societies have different concepts of morality also. This leads one to think that morality is socially constructed.

edited for grammar


Edited by Benjichang - 24 March 2009 at 1:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skillet42565 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 1:13pm
On the first day, man created God.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:



Different societies have different concepts of morality also. This leads one to think that morality is socially constructed.



A certain possibility to be sure.
But, if there are variations in the interpretations of religion, it would stand to reason that concepts that derive from those interpretations would vary also, lending credence to the idea that morality is a derivation of religion.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 1:24pm
Reb, religion is an invention of humans.  Humans who did not have any religion created religion and everything about it, including morality.  morality existed before religion, so to say that morality is a product of religion and not basic humanity is false.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by Eville Eville wrote:

Reb, religion is an invention of humans.  Humans who did not have any religion created religion and everything about it, including morality.  morality existed before religion, so to say that morality is a product of religion and not basic humanity is false.  



Wait....what? You said that man created religion and everything attached to it, even morality....but morality existed first? Confused


Even if man created (and wasn't given) religion, you can't even pretend that morality existed first. Without a belief system, fabricated or not, there is no morality. Back then, there was no societal contracts to oblige. It was a survival situation. When organized belief systems started to arise, and religious teachings emerged from the human brain(?)- it established a code by which to live. Prior to that, it may have been perfectly acceptable to stick a spear in some guy's chest in order to take the fish that he just caught and survive yourself. Where's the morality in that?







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by Eville Eville wrote:

Reb, religion is an invention of humans.  Humans who did not have any religion created religion and everything about it, including morality.  morality existed before religion, so to say that morality is a product of religion and not basic humanity is false.  



Wait....what? You said that man created religion and everything attached to it, even morality....but morality existed first? Confused


Even if man created (and wasn't given) religion, you can't even pretend that morality existed first. Without a belief system, fabricated or not, there is no morality. Back then, there was no societal contracts to oblige. It was a survival situation. When organized belief systems started to arise, and religious teachings emerged from the human brain(?)- it established a code by which to live. Prior to that, it may have been perfectly acceptable to stick a spear in some guy's chest in order to take the fish that he just caught and survive yourself. Where's the morality in that?


im saying man created morality first, then attached it to their religion and morality existed before religion.  Survival may have spawned morality.  if you are trying to hunt something big, arent you going to want to have some friends to help you?  how much good is it going to do you if you spear your hunting buddy?  or if you are attacked by a larger predator.  it is going to be in your best interest to have a friend with you who doesnt have a spear hole in his chest to help you survive.

Im not saying religion doesnt help build morals, but if morals didnt exist first, societies would not have been able to form to create belief systems and religions.


Edited by Eville - 24 March 2009 at 1:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2009 at 1:54pm
I think you're putting the cart before the horse, strictly in an effort to argue with me. Its okay, I'll play.

You're mixing necessity with morality.

Not spearing your 'friend' in the chest in an effort to help you hunt isn't morality, that's allowing survival because its in your own best interest...and rarely does one make a moral decision because its in their own (earthly) best interests.

Not killing you because I need you isn't moral. Not killing you because its wrong is. Until religion came along and gave people the reason to believe that killing was, in fact wrong- there was no concept of morality. You need a firm system of beliefs established (artificially or through divine inspiration) in order to start setting up guidelines for moral codes.

I need to find a synonym for 'morality'




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