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Why Vets hate Obama

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2009 at 11:29am
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Having fought in three conflicts as an Infantryman my views are both contractual as well as moral. Even the draftee was promised lifetime medical care for any "service connected" injury recieved while on active duty.

...

I am now unemployable based on these conditions, yet Obama states that now I will need to provide private insurance to suppliment VA care, if his plan goes throught. OK Peter, How am I going to contract any private insurance, and I am only one of millions in the same situation.

...

When you contract with your private sector employer for healthcare that contract is binding, why is the veterans contract for medical care any differant.


I refer to my earlier posts:

1. How is old age "service related"?

2. How do you draw a moral distinction between military personnel and, say, teachers?

3. Can I presume you support paying bonuses to AIG and bank executives, and support the union jobs bank and retirement plans? All agreed to in contract.

4. Millions of other Americans are unemployable and uninusurable due to on-the-job injuries, who also had contracted for employment-based healthcare. Then they quit or got fired/laid off, or the company went under, and they lost their healthcare. They also followed the rules but got unlucky, and now cannot get either jobs or private health insurance. Is their situation that different from yours?


"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2009 at 11:32am
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I must be having a slow day, but I am not seeing the logical flaws. Must be a difference of opinion. Anyways....


You are basically making taxes and government services opt-out. Since I never go to Alabama, I hereby opt out of all Federal taxes that goes to Alabama. Problem with this continued argument, you brought up Missouri earlier, is that these taxes a lot of times go towards public works such as roads. You do in fact use these roads in the form of the trucks that travel across it to bring you the goods that you use on a daily basis. So, yes, you owe these. 

Quote I do have a question for you Petey. You mentioned that your children go to a private school. Why would you pay to send them to a private school when they have a perfectly good tax payer supported, government run public school just down the road? It couldn't possibly be because the private school offers a better education? How does this differ from NHS? If you don't trust the government to provide an education to your kids, do you really want to trust them with your life? What evidence is there that they will do any better of a job?


We pay for private school because we determined that the local public school was not up to our expectations. We considered moving into a better district (about half a mile away), but eventually decided against it. There are plenty of perfectly fine public schools around. In fact, had we been able to open enroll in the better school district (we missed the lottery) we would not even have considered private school. I get angry every time I write a check. The fact remains that you don't think the government can even run a school. They have shown time and again, that they fail in education, VA, social security etc. Sure, why not give them another try. What, it's only our lives.

An unfortunate feature of the US public school system is the very uneven quality due to local funding (yet another topic), but I have absolutely nothing against public school. If/when we move, I fully expect to use the public schools.

But moreover, at no point did I think that I was entitled in any way to a tax reduction because I elect not to use the public schools. By that theory, the old lady next to me should also not pay taxes associated with school, since she is, you know, old. See, I am looking out for your best interest, because I think you are. As for the old lady, at one time, her kids most likely went to the school. I am not talking about a permanent opt out, just as long as you are using an alternative method of educating your kids.  Same with healthcare. Problem being is that I beleive nationalizing it will make private healthcare that much more expensive. In order to get "good" healthcare, you will have to go private. Only the wealthy will be able to afford this. So truly, which is the more elitist plan?

So it is with any type of NHS. I would not support any system that prohibited people from obtaining private medical care or insurance, but nor would I expect such a system to allow users to opt out and avoid taxes. Than we simply have to disagree. I don't see the system necessarily as broken. What I see is increased costs to me because of the bottom of the barrel dragging the system down so that you and I have to pay for them. I don't think NHS will change that.  

That isn't how taxes work. I pay above-average taxes, and use below-average government services. As do I. For others it is the opposite. Every one of us pay taxes for services for which we aren't even legally eligible. Not one among us pays taxes exactly for what we use.

Taxes are not a self-service menu, but a pooling of resources for the common good. And if you honestly cannot see how a healthy population benefits everybody, just the same as a well-educated population benefits everybody, then we have a fundamental disconnect.  Natural selection?

And what evidence is there that a NHS would do a better job than what we have now? That's easy: we have the worst healthcare among all fully industrialized nations, and the most expensive. It could hardly get worse.  Matter of opinion.



Edited by oldpbnoob - 17 March 2009 at 11:38am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote You Wont See Me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2009 at 11:56am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:

  Then of course is easy for the rest of the world to give diluted tech to people in socialist health care systems.


What?


He's actually quite right.

Te rest of the world benefits from our  for profit health care system because it drives changes in the way we practice medicine, including the technology we use. Then the other countries benefit either by getting our "old" technology or by direct implementation of our new discovery (which they didn't pay a thing to discover).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CarbineKid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2009 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I 100% agree with you. If you send your kids to private school, why should you have to pay local school taxes?


That's not what I said at all.

I am saying that because my kids are in private school, NOBODY should have public school.

The government should not be providing education for anybody at all. That is what the free market is for. We aren't socialists.


The largest part of my property taxes goes to my towns public education system. The break down is $12-16,000 per student a year. I send my little one to a private school for $4200 a year. Not only is he getting a better education in a private school but its cost alot less per student.
There is a place for public schools, but at least in my city...or for that matter my state, the public school systems are a disaster. Its way over budget, and test scores are horrible.   Think about it a private school give a better education at a third of the price....    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Parker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2009 at 5:11pm
I certainly won't disagree that there are many bad public schools, or that a private school can be run more cost-effectively than a public school.

But I am a little suspicious about the $4200/year, assuming that is full day K-12. That is FAR less than any other private school I know. Not saying that it isn't possible, but instead noting that many "private" schools take significant amounts of money from state or federal sources. Others, notably parochial schools, get money from charity or parent organizations. As a result, the tuition does not reflect the true total cost.

The local Catholic school charges around $5k/year, for instance, but that isn't their cost per student. The rest comes from the church.

"E Pluribus Unum" does not mean "Every man for himself".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rofl_Mao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2009 at 6:28pm
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I 100% agree with you. If you send your kids to private school, why should you have to pay local school taxes?
That's not what I said at all. I am saying that because my kids are in private school, NOBODY should have public school. The government should not be providing education for anybody at all. That is what the free market is for. We aren't socialists.
Well that's silly because no one would get an education. If you can't afford to pay for a private education, you should be taxed, and get a lesser public education. Seems fair to me. Kind of like healthcare. If I can afford my own private healthcare, why should I have to pay taxes to support a national one?


This isn't my line, but... are you trolling? You don't usually post stuff with massive and obvious logical flaws like this.

I mean, seriously, dude. Seriously.

Please tell me you are trolling.


-facepalm- Clap great comeback! Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hysteria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2009 at 10:07pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Only the wealthy will be able to afford this. So truly, which is the more elitist plan?


Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:


Taxes are not a self-service menu, but a pooling of resources for the common good. And if you honestly cannot see how a healthy population benefits everybody, just the same as a well-educated population benefits everybody, then we have a fundamental disconnect.  Natural selection?


I find it highly ironic that you will dub any plan "elitist" when you are willing to let those who can't afford health care simply die out via natural selection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evil Elvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2009 at 12:01am
Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

You know what I think? I think we should abolish public schools.   My kid is in private school, so I could care less about schooling for others. If I can afford it so can they. Maybe they should have worked harder to get better jobs if they can't afford it.

America is the land of Dreams. Just have to work your arse off to get it.

Something else we should abolish: Police. I live in a safe neighborhood, so I don't need the police. If I did, I would just hire my own security. So I don't care about those who need police or can't afford their own security. Screw'em. Screw'em all. Should have worked harder.

And roads in Missouri. I don't live their anymore, so I don't care about the roads there. If they want roads, they can buy their own roads. Hicks should have worked harder if they didn't want to drive on gravel.

The dream is there. You just have to work for it.



If you can afford Private Schools for your kid then by all means you should get a Tax Break on that.

Regardless of how safe your neighborhood is Unless you plan to dig a Moat and a Parapet. Then Sure a tax break then also. Thou should you need the Police Expect a Bill.

And I do agree about roads on Mississippi for all I care they can drive on dirt. Same Argument that's caused a heated Debate in my state. The new Democrat Governor wants to raise gas taxes which they haven't since 1991 so I don't have a problem with the Raise. But how ever I do have a huge Issue with his Humongous tax raise plan just so people in Boston can ride the Metro for cheaper and so they don't have to raise tolls out in Boston and to pay for the Colossal Goat Rodeo that is the Big Dig. besides a few trips to Fenway a Year and going to see the BossTones I dont travel to Boston that much so I dont mind paying a higher toll for that day. What I dont agree is to pay for JMAC3 to drive around the MBTA and all them lame redundant highway agencies we have wich number 5 in one state.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2009 at 1:27am
I am facepalming so hard right now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2009 at 3:26am
im right there with you
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2009 at 8:24am
Freedom isn't Free...
 
The people that fight for us, give their best years, and many times their health. The least we can do is take great care of them afterwords.
 
Thank you vets!
 
 
Taxes are out of control in our country. Its sad to see how many people want to make the US like so many european countries... (why don't they just move over there, and leave our system alone?...)
 
But, that isn't the way it works. Its all just a huge power grab.
 
You think you have high taxes now... Wait till they pass cap and trade, and your energy costs skyrocket. It won't be a "tax" but it will be much more money out of your pocket each month...
 
 
They tremble at my name...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2009 at 8:33am
Originally posted by Hysteria Hysteria wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Only the wealthy will be able to afford this. So truly, which is the more elitist plan?


Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:


Taxes are not a self-service menu, but a pooling of resources for the common good. And if you honestly cannot see how a healthy population benefits everybody, just the same as a well-educated population benefits everybody, then we have a fundamental disconnect.  Natural selection?


I find it highly ironic that you will dub any plan "elitist" when you are willing to let those who can't afford health care simply die out via natural selection.
 
The elitist comment was a carry over from another thread that Spidey and I were jousting on where he called me elitist or something to that effect because my wife is covered by a school system healthcare policy and I didnt think that everyone with a pulse in the U.S, should be covered by the same policy. Unless of course they agree to work for peanuts and deal with the beuracracy all day every day that is in charge of the public school systems and other government run entities.  The natural selection comment was meant tongue in cheek, but not too much so as I truly believe that a bigger than should be part of our population is draining those of us that do work for a living dry.
 
Oh, and I am elitist in the fact that I think people who actually work for a living and pay their fair share (and in some cases more than their fair share) of taxes should be treated better and be privy to better services than the 5 fold welfare mom (they prefer stay at home mothers around here) that sits on her arse back all day spitting out bastard spawn that I end up having to support.
 
We are officially way off subject.


Edited by oldpbnoob - 18 March 2009 at 8:38am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2009 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:


The new Democrat Governor wants to raise gas taxes which they haven't since 1991 so I don't have a problem with the Raise. But how ever I do have a huge Issue with his Humongous tax raise plan just so people in Boston can ride the Metro for cheaper and so they don't have to raise tolls out in Boston and to pay for the Colossal Goat Rodeo that is the Big Dig. besides a few trips to Fenway a Year and going to see the BossTones I dont travel to Boston that much so I dont mind paying a higher toll for that day. What I dont agree is to pay for JMAC3 to drive around the MBTA and all them lame redundant highway agencies we have wich number 5 in one state.



lol EE. I am also very much against that nuisance of a gas tax. 19 cents, he must be high. I can't believe he dare say that our roads won't be fixed without raising the gas taxes. New Hampshire roads are fine with much less taxes. MILLIONS(billions?) wasted on that nonsense called the Big Dig and people still died from the tunnel falling on their head. Highways in mass are some of the worst I have ever seen.

I am also against raising the prices on the T, and for T parking. I went to  Boston monday night, Parking at the T was double what it used to be. Add that to the raised fares that happened(last year maybe?) and it's almost the same price to pay for parking on Landsdowne that it is to take the T. Maybe they should realize this? I think I may give to money to the MBTA next time.

I am sure, if the retards in the Mass. government learned basic math and how to budget money there wouldn't be this issue.
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Destruction Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2009 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by Rofl_Mao Rofl_Mao wrote:


Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Parker Peter Parker wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I 100% agree with you. If you send your kids to private school, why should you have to pay local school taxes?
That's not what I said at all. I am saying that because my kids are in private school, NOBODY should have public school. The government should not be providing education for anybody at all. That is what the free market is for. We aren't socialists.
Well that's silly because no one would get an education. If you can't afford to pay for a private education, you should be taxed, and get a lesser public education. Seems fair to me. Kind of like healthcare. If I can afford my own private healthcare, why should I have to pay taxes to support a national one?


This isn't my line, but... are you trolling? You don't usually post stuff with massive and obvious logical flaws like this.

I mean, seriously, dude. Seriously.

Please tell me you are trolling.
-facepalm- Clap great comeback! Thumbs Up


Quit brown-nosing the (actual) forum conservatives, and GTFO.
u dont know what to do ur getting mottor boatted

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2009 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by Destruction Destruction wrote:

Quit brown-nosing the (actual) forum conservatives, and GTFO.


No joke. That had to be one of the most immature posts I've read recently.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bolt3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2009 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:

   Not-so clever jabs aside. All you hippies know that without the Industry behind Health care we still be treating people with leaches and toad warts. Then of course is easy for the rest of the world to give diluted tech to people in socialist health care systems.

   Since I actually have a decent health care plan with excellent coverage. I could care less about universal coverage. If I can afford it so can they. Maybe they should work 2 jobs like I do along with my seasonal Fence gigs I do in warm weather.

    America is the land of Dreams. Just have to work your arse off to get it.


No, it just means you haven't had anything major happen to you, yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evil Elvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 March 2009 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by Bolt3 Bolt3 wrote:


Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:

   Not-so clever jabs aside. All you hippies know that without the Industry behind Health care we still be treating people with leaches and toad warts. Then of course is easy for the rest of the world to give diluted tech to people in socialist health care systems.

   Since I actually have a decent health care plan with excellent coverage. I could care less about universal coverage. If I can afford it so can they. Maybe they should work 2 jobs like I do along with my seasonal Fence gigs I do in warm weather.

    America is the land of Dreams. Just have to work your arse off to get it.
No, it just means you haven't had anything major happen to you, yet.


I have other plans just in case. I work in an industry with a high turn around rate. With my resume and contacts I have nothing to worry for. Other wise I could always go Merc out in Mejico. Hear that's like the new Baghdad.

Unlike overpaid union auto workers. I am not above moving, farm work, scrubbing toilets or what ever it takes to feed my family.
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