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Linus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2009 at 10:50am
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Force appropriate to subdue a 15 year old who did nothing more than flick a shoe?I think appropriate force would have been to shut the door on her....



And I agree with you (gasp). Like I've stated a couple of times now, I would much rather him have gone about it in a different manner, but fact is, up until he grabbed the hair, he was still ok. From that point on, he crossed the line.



You're arguing with someone who agrees with you on basis. I don't get it.

Edited by Linus - 01 March 2009 at 10:51am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2009 at 10:51am
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Force appropriate to subdue a 15 year old who did nothing more than flick a shoe?I think appropriate force would have been to shut the door on her....



And I agree with you (gasp). Like I've stated a couple of times now, I would much rather him have gone about it in a different manner, but fact is, up until he grabbed the hair, he was still ok. From that point on, he crossed the line.


He ran in the room, kicked her, and swung at her.....before she hit the wall.

I think he crossed the line when he ran in the room...


EDIT: I am arguing with you because you are saying a punch, a kick, and slamming someone into a wall is totally appropriate for getting hit with a shoe....

That all happened before he grabbed her hair.




Edited by jmac3 - 01 March 2009 at 10:52am
Que pasa?


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carl_the_sniper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2009 at 10:52am
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Why? I don't agree with his actions.

Was he justified in subduing her because she kicked the shoe at him? Yes. Did he use an exorbitant amount of force to do that? Yup.


The initial push into the wall was ok, the throwing on the the ground was pushing it, but using the hair to do so and once he started punching her, that went beyond the line.


You guys have to give me SOME credit, I don't think ALL police action is justified... I just have to balance out your "lynch all cops" attitude.

LINUS SAID IT WAS JUSTIFIED GUYS!

GOGOGOGOGO!!!!!!

On a serious note, I hate that attitude also linus.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2009 at 10:59am
jmac, since you're such an expert on the video, watch it again;

When he first steps in the room, she swings her arms out at the cop. Could it have been a reaction to a big burly man making a quick move towards you? Sure. But everyone knows if you make an aggressive move towards a cop, on purpose or not, you're going down.

Again, I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE EXCESSIVE FORCE.

I'm just a bit sad that it took 3 months for this thing to even surface.

Originally posted by Carl Carl wrote:

On a serious note, I hate that attitude also linus.


Wait, Carl and I agreeing on something?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2009 at 11:04am

If you've noticed, my argument in these threads has generally supported the police.

There are people here who would trust a random stranger before they trusted a police officer.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2009 at 11:06am
You know what Linus, I am not even going to argue anymore because you might as well be FreeEnterprise.

I would just like to point out that you said you think he was justified until he grabbed her hair. That was after she hit the wall.

You then said you don't agree with excessive force. Running into the room like he did was excessive force. Therefore you contradicted yourself.
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2009 at 11:07am
Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

If you've noticed, my argument in these threads has generally supported the police.

There are people here who would trust a random stranger before they trusted a police officer.



Which I never understood personally. Are there bad cops? Yup. But people can't just lump them all in to one group and say all cops are bad and they ruin lives.


I was watching cops last night (shocker), and they had this one lady. She kept saying "See, this is why I hate cops. I love firefights and paramedics, but I hate cops because they ruin lives"--- as the cops are pulling meth out of her purse.



Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

You know what Linus, I am not even going to argue anymore because you might as well be FreeEnterprise.


No, you're not going to argue with me anymore because you have no answer to any of the points I brought up. This is your way of making it look like I'm stubborn, when in fact you just can't face the fact that I very well might actually be right.

Edited by Linus - 01 March 2009 at 11:09am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2009 at 11:11am
No, I am not going to argue with you because you are stubborn.

You have brought up ZERO points other than to say he was justified, and then go on to say you don't agree with excessive force.

It was ALL excessive force. You can't have it both ways.

You are not right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2009 at 11:14am
No points? Reread a couple of post above;

Originally posted by Me Me wrote:

jmac, since you're such an expert on the video, watch it again;

When he first steps in the room, she swings her arms out at the cop. Could it have been a reaction to a big burly man making a quick move towards you? Sure. But everyone knows if you make an aggressive move towards a cop, on purpose or not, you're going down.



Quote I'm just a bit sad that it took 3 months for this thing to even surface.


Quote Like I've stated a couple of times now, I would much rather him have gone about it in a different manner


Edited by Linus - 01 March 2009 at 11:15am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2009 at 11:16am
Except that isn't what I am arguing.

I am arguing where you said it was justified. Which you did say
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2009 at 11:17am
I said the initial move was, yes. Everything beyond that I said was excessive.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2009 at 11:26am
So a kick and a punch is justified?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gator Taco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2009 at 11:35am
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Force appropriate to subdue a 15 year old who did nothing more than flick a shoe?

I think appropriate force would have been to shut the door on her....


QFT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2009 at 11:48am
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

So a kick and a punch is justified?



Ever been in a fistfight? Look at it like this;

If someone has just kicked something at you, and when you move towards them, their arms come out, are you just going to stand there and let whatever happens happen?

If someone kicked something at you, you're looking at their feet for another kicked, and kicking your leg out is a defense.

Someone raises their hands at you, you raise yours as a defense as well.


Real life fights are not choreographed, and you just have to go with the flow, but at the same time when you're a cop and the opponent is a 15 yo girl, you need to keep some level of restraint.


Am I condoning what he did? For the 5th time, NO, but does it somewhat make sense? Yes.

Should he have gone about it in a different way? YES.

Should he have used a different amount / type of force? YES.


How many ways do I have to phrase this for it to finally get through to you?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2009 at 11:53am
She wouldn't have raised her hands if he didn't run at her and kick her like the psycho he is.

I don't care if you say he should have gone about it in a different because you said he was somewhat justified.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2009 at 12:00pm
Did I not already state in another post, and I quote for your benefit;

Quote When he first steps in the room, she swings her arms out at the cop. Could it have been a reaction to a big burly man making a quick move towards you? Sure. But everyone knows if you make an aggressive move towards a cop, on purpose or not, you're going down.



Her arms were raised before he kicked.

Even when he kicked, it's towards her RIGHT foot, the one still with the shoe, because she was making a motion of kicking the other shoe at him.



Again, I think it's excessive force beyond the initial push. But just because you don't agree with him going in to the room in the first place, does not mean it wasn't justified.

Edited by Linus - 01 March 2009 at 12:01pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2009 at 12:12pm
He kicked with his right leg to her left side....the side with the shoe already off.


Why can't you ever just admit that a cop is completely wrong in some of these cases?

Must be the ride alongs and EVOC training....


Edited by jmac3 - 01 March 2009 at 12:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightningbolt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2009 at 12:31pm
Assume the worst prior to what video we have to look at.  Do you think they would have let her freely move about the station if she did something prior to the video to warrant the force on the tape?
 
He or they will fry.  It's obvious that the cop somehow feels insignificant in order to act like that.  Childish would be a good way to describe the cop.


Edited by Lightningbolt - 01 March 2009 at 12:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2009 at 1:18pm
my friends 15 year old sister punched me once.  I did not feel the need to kick her in the chest against a wall, pummel her, throw her around by her hair or anything like that.  I wanted to because she annoys the crap out of me, but instead i just bear hugged her, set her down on the porch, went back in and locked the door.

being a cop doesnt give you the right to be a dick and blow things out of proportion,legally or not. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2009 at 1:34pm
Figured I'd chime in with a serious comment.  I watched the vid numerous times and am basing my opinion on 20+ years of military law enforcement experience.  (Me waits for someone to scream "you're biased!")

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

I think appropriate force would have been to shut the door on her....


The answer to that is a resounding "no."  As she is in the officers' custody, they are responsible for her.  Once she demonstrated violence (of any level) towards them they also had to consider the possibility that she could injure herself and were pretty much required to handcuff her at that point. 

With that said, the officers screwed up (in my opinion) at that point in two separate ways:  First, the reaction of the attacking officer appears to be an anger-based response as opposed to a measured escalation.  Since she needs to be subdued at this point, the most appropriate response would have been direct her to face the wall (or something along those lines) for cuffing.  With this video it is difficult to tell if that might have occurred.  (I doubt it, but I am trying to judge only on what can be seen.)  Second, with two officers present, there was no need for her to be slammed on the ground.  The handful of hair would have been sufficient to move her along the wall and maintain control until she was positioned for cuffing by the other officer.

I have to agree with Linus (mostly) on the initial contact the officer made with her.  When her hands came up and towards the officer he reacted defensively.  This is not normally a situation where someone sets and mulls over options and scenario specifics, this is a situation where people react as they are trained.  His hands were tied up with hers so he threw a knee to her ribs.  The point where I begin to question the deputy's actions are just after the kick when he appears to throw a punch to her head.  If that is actually the hair grab, then I don't have an issue with it as he is establishing control; if, on the other hand, it is a punch, then I have to question the necessity of it as she is already headed towards the wall as desired.  My opinion is that any further action after she was on the wall was excessive force.  Keep in mind this may be mitigated by issues such as department policy/training.  If they are trained to put every perp on the ground in similar situations, then this is merely a matter of them reacting as trained.  There are no circumstances where the two blows to the head after she is on the ground is anything other than excessive force.  (In which case, I think the department really needs to take a look at their training; although, given the information regarding the precinct they are assigned to, it may be necessary.)

Where I disagree with Linus is if the initial contact was absolutely necessary.  A camera view of the officer in the hall just before he engaged with the girl would be most useful.  When this is investigated, I expect this to be one of the major points of contention.
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