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Change?... yeah, right.

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oldsoldier View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 February 2009 at 4:27pm
I am still bothered by the vetting process missing the tax problems of two high ranking Democrats. Now if these two were Republicans the anal exam would have been beyond belief. Raul Emmanual makes Dick Cheney look like an amatuer in the puppet master role. And where exactly is the VP? like playing wheres waldo in DC.
As Obama drifts past center and slightly into the right, he is going to eventually PO his fringe base, as he places his bets on the middle of the road crowd, leaving his promises to this fringe behind him now that he has been elected.
I am looking foward to all the free entertainment that will be offered by this administration. I still see myself changing into a Constitutionalist first, as more and more threats will arise from this administration than the last. In order for many of the policies to be put into place more personal freedoms must be replaced by governmental dependance. A subscription to Sirius radio where you can listen to Radio Left, and Patriot and after a week of this info-tainment you can see how much it has changed. The hatred directed at Bush has turned to almost a religious admiration for Obama on Radio Left, and vice versa on Patriot. The only real shows I listen to is Mike Church, and Andrew Wilkow. Two hours of Alex Bennett will make any sane individual want to put a gun in his mouth, and one hour of Stephanie Miller makes it hard to hold dinner down. But entertainment is where you find it, and the truth is definatly lost somewhere in this media morass.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 February 2009 at 9:06pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:


Isn't comparing your lack of understanding of the self-employment tax with Geithner akin to me comparing my lack of understanding of the String Theory with Steven Hawkins?


I think Stephen Hawking would take great offense at the implication of him being a string theorist :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 February 2009 at 9:56pm
I lol'd at anyone thinking the media is ignoring the current financial crisis. How delusional and secluded are you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2009 at 8:02am
They tremble at my name...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2009 at 8:06am
I'm surprised Glenn Beck didn't cry after that.


EDIT: Also, man is it going to be funny when the daily show shows clips of Fox news contradicting themselves again.

Edited by mbro - 03 February 2009 at 8:10am

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2009 at 8:25am

Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

 

Quote He got busted when audited, for 2003-2004. So he paid, but since they couldn’t audit him for 2001 and 2002, he just kept quiet about those years…

 

Until he was nominated and vetted for this new job… Then he “figured out” his hiccup…

 

Now this I agree is more in the moral gray area.  Yes, he "got away with it" for a while.  But let's be honest - if the IRS came to you and said that you underpaid your taxes five years ago, and would you please pay them $15,000, even though you are not obligated by law to do so any more - how many of us would pony up the dough?

 

Quote Yeah, right.

 

Indeed.  Morally questionable, perhaps, but I have a hard time condemning a man for something I would probably do myself.

 

Quote Fraud, liar, cheat.

Nope.  None of those.  At least not based on current information.

 

Quote Ethics matter.

 

Indeed they do.  And the only ethical issue that I can see is the early returns past the statute of limitations.  And while that does give me pause, for the reason set forth above I am inclined to get over it.

 

[quote]Now we get Daschel who “forgot” to claim his free car and driver on his taxes… (sounds like a lobbyist job to me, as most employers don’t give you a free car service just for consulting)

 

And in fact the lobbyist angle is more troublesome to me than the taxes, and I am surprised that hasn't gotten more attention.  I may have to poke around some.  But here again, as I said above, my information is that Daschle did his taxes perfectly based on the documents given to him.  If that is correct, then it is very hard to fault the man for any errors.

 

 

I’m glad you posted this. As this is why the argument about evolution is so critical.

 

You and I have two completely different world views. Let me break them down for everyone to see.

 

You believe you evolved after millions/ strike that… BILLIONS of years. Survival of the fittest and all that. There is no afterlife, only now. So therefore you do whatever you can get away with. Hey, if you can sleep at night, and the “other” guy does it, it must be OK…

 

I on the other hand believe that I was Created by God. My Creator made me to honor and worship Him. So all that I do, I do to try and please Him, the best of my ability. I wouldn’t try to “get away” with something, because God sees all, knows all.  When I pay my taxes, which are very confusing, I hire a professional, I don’t do things that would get me in trouble as I want to do the right thing. I don’t lie and cheat on my taxes. I even claim as income stuff I sell on Ebay… Its one of those “gray areas” you spoke of, but it would be unethical if I didn’t, because it is income.

 

That is the difference between us. Ethics matter, and in the end, I believe I will have to answer for my actions. You on the other hand… I guess you figure, your as good as the guy next to you so therefore your fine…

 

I don’t believe in tax increases because I actually pay all of my taxes… Now that I have seen Obama’s nominations, I see why Democrats don’t mind raising taxes all the time.

 

THEY DON’T PAY their taxes anyway… So who cares how much they “actually” are… Only “suckers” pay the full amount, because as you so elloquently posted “Morally questionable, perhaps, but I have a hard time condemning a man for something I would probably do myself.”

 

Speak for yourself.

 

Character matters.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2009 at 8:34am
So fear of eternal damnation is what drives you to do good?

I'd rather do good in order to feel like a good person.

You seem to think that religion is the only driving force behind morals. It's not. How a person is raised is also a major part of it which is why there are still plenty of people who are not religious and still are good people.

Edited by mbro - 03 February 2009 at 8:35am

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaiNTbALLfReNzY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2009 at 8:39am
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:


Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:


Isn't comparing your lack of understanding of the self-employment tax with Geithner akin to me comparing my lack of understanding of the String Theory with Steven Hawkins?
I think Stephen Hawking would take great offense at the implication of him being a string theorist :)


My same thought. Stephen Hawking did not discover string theory. One of his colleagues did. Hawking has been searching for the meaning of everything, how the universe was formed, and how gravity fits into it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2009 at 8:57am

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28989982/

 

You call it change; I say “more of the same”…

 

During almost two years on the campaign trail, Barack Obama vowed to slay the demons of Washington, bar lobbyists from his administration and usher in what he would later call in his Inaugural Address a “new era of responsibility.” What he did not talk much about were the asterisks.

The exceptions that went unmentioned now include a pair of cabinet nominees who did not pay all of their taxes. Then there is the lobbyist for a military contractor who is now slated to become the No. 2 official in the Pentagon. And there are the others brought into government from the influence industry even if not formally registered as lobbyists.”

They tremble at my name...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2009 at 9:00am
Originally posted by mbro mbro wrote:

So fear of eternal damnation is what drives you to do good?

I'd rather do good in order to feel like a good person.

You seem to think that religion is the only driving force behind morals. It's not. How a person is raised is also a major part of it which is why there are still plenty of people who are not religious and still are good people.
 
So, your one of the "I'm just like other people, so, I'm OK."...
 
Sad, you don't even see it.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2009 at 10:51am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

You believe you evolved after millions/ strike that… BILLIONS of years. Survival of the fittest and all that.

 
True.
 
Quote There is no afterlife, only now.
 
This does not follow.  There are plenty of folk who accept the evidence for evolution but remain deeply religious.  Acceptance of evolution does not negate belief in an afterlife.
 
Examples of this are so easy to find that even making your statement makes you look completely disingenuous and/or foolish.
 
Quote So therefore you do whatever you can get away with. Hey, if you can sleep at night, and the “other” guy does it, it must be OK…
 
Also does not follow.  Any claim that morality can only flow from divinity or fear of an afterlife is patently and obviously false.
 
Here also examples are so easy to find, and hard to avoid, that making this statement just makes you look silly. 

 

Quote  When I pay my taxes, which are very confusing, I hire a professional, I don’t do things that would get me in trouble as I want to do the right thing. I don’t lie and cheat on my taxes. I even claim as income stuff I sell on Ebay… Its one of those “gray areas” you spoke of, but it would be unethical if I didn’t, because it is income.

 

That is the difference between us. Ethics matter, and in the end, I believe I will have to answer for my actions. You on the other hand… I guess you figure, your as good as the guy next to you so therefore your fine…

 
I am not sure if you are intentionally mischaracterizing my posts, or you just don't understand them.
 
First - plenty of people who hire professionals to do their taxes still get audited and end up paying penalties.  Professionals get them wrong too.  Besides, the professional can only deal with what you give them - you might very well have mistakes on your tax return that you don't know about.
 
Second, I take my taxes very seriously.  Seriously enough that I consult regularly with professionals who, frankly, are far more knowledgeable on the subject than your local H&R guy.  It would be easier for me to hand off documents to an accountant, but I choose to do them myself BECAUSE I want it done right, and I want to make sure I understand as much as possible what is going on.  I also want to be in a position to make educated decisions about how to handle various issues.
 
Third, I am not trying to "get away" with anything.  To the best of my knowledge and ability, I pay all my taxes when due.  I view taxes as a moral obligation as well as a legal obligation, and as an ethical person I try to do my share to contribute.  I do not aggressively seek deductions, and I generally err on the side of conservative decisions.
 
That does NOT mean that I plan on donating more to the government than required - and I challenge you to find many people who believe that moral behavior requires you to throw in a few extra bucks.
 
Lastly, on your taxes - do you pay state sales/use tax on your internet purchases?  Amazon, Woot, ftd.com, etc.?  Anybody else want to volunteer their tax practice here?
 
Quote I don’t believe in tax increases because I actually pay all of my taxes… Now that I have seen Obama’s nominations, I see why Democrats don’t mind raising taxes all the time.

 

THEY DON’T PAY their taxes anyway… So who cares how much they “actually” are…

 
Are you honestly taking the position that Democrats have significantly more tax-paying issues than Republicans?  Honestly?  Really?
 
Quote Only “suckers” pay the full amount, because as you so elloquently posted “Morally questionable, perhaps, but I have a hard time condemning a man for something I would probably do myself.”
 
I do pay the full amount, as did the gentlemen in question.  With them as with me (and others), sometimes the full amount only gets paid after errors are uncovered, but the full amount gets paid.
 
And I do challenge you, and everybody else reading this:  If the IRS rolled up to your door, and made the following statement:  "Hello, sir.  We discovered that six to ten years ago you made an honest mistake on your tax returns that resulted in underpayment for those years totalling $35,000.  We have no legal right to claim the money anymore, but would you please right us a check anyway?"
 
How many of us would write that check?
 
I would not.  And I would lose no sleep over it.

 

Quote  

Character matters.

 
Absolutely it does.
 
And I am a very ethical, morally motivated person.  I also acknowledge my flaws, and find forgiveness for the flaws of others.  I try to avoid casting the first stone.
 
 
 
BTW - you should swing by the evolution thread.  All kinds of action since you were there last.
 
 


Edited by Bruce Banner - 03 February 2009 at 11:40am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2009 at 11:11am

Maybe you guys should give the banks some more money since it worked so well last time.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2009 at 11:43am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2009 at 11:54am
Originally posted by PaiNTbALLfReNzY PaiNTbALLfReNzY wrote:

Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:


Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:


Isn't comparing your lack of understanding of the self-employment tax with Geithner akin to me comparing my lack of understanding of the String Theory with Steven Hawkins?
I think Stephen Hawking would take great offense at the implication of him being a string theorist :)


My same thought. Stephen Hawking did not discover string theory. One of his colleagues did. Hawking has been searching for the meaning of everything, how the universe was formed, and how gravity fits into it.
 
Where did I state that Hawking discovered String Theory? I am however, sure he has a whole lot better grasp on it than I do and comparing my lack of understanding of it to his, would be an unfair comparison, thus my point.
 
Regarding BB's background, I wasn't certain of your position/credentials, but either way, you aren't applying for the position of Secretary of the Treasury. However, reading further into his credentials, he obviously seems qualified for the position even if he apparently needs to hire an accountant, especially since is sounds like he should be able to afford it.  Than again, perhaps it should be taken as a character flaw of not knowing his limitiations. I work in the electronics industry, but I don't crack open my TV and start trying to fix it when it breaks, I take it somewhere that knows what they are doing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2009 at 11:56am
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/02/03/sen-demint-calls-obama-withdraw-daschle-nomination/

"DeMint told FOX News that Daschle's failure to pay $134,000 in federal taxes reflects a "problem with integrity" that the government cannot afford to tolerate. DeMint spoke out against Daschle as a number of prominent newspapers, including The New York Times, called for the South Dakota Democrat to drop his bid.

"It's very unfortunate with Tom Daschle that this has occurred, but the president needs to lead. He needs to step in here and he needs to withdraw this nomination," the South Carolina Republican said. "



Edited by FreeEnterprise - 03 February 2009 at 11:57am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2009 at 12:08pm
Debating FE is probably the biggest waste of time there is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2009 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

 
Regarding BB's background, I wasn't certain of your position/credentials, but either way, you aren't applying for the position of Secretary of the Treasury. However, reading further into his credentials, he obviously seems qualified for the position even if he apparently needs to hire an accountant, especially since is sounds like he should be able to afford it.  Than again, perhaps it should be taken as a character flaw of not knowing his limitiations. I work in the electronics industry, but I don't crack open my TV and start trying to fix it when it breaks, I take it somewhere that knows what they are doing.
 
All good points.
 
I should perhaps refine my point a little:  Assuming the facts in Geithner's favor (no ill intent, honest mistake, etc.), then my experience is that this particular mistake is a mistake not uncommon among the type of people who would be considered for this particular job. 
 
Similarly, with regard to Killefer (WTH is a "performance czar" anyway?), failure to pay employment taxes for domestic help is a very common issue for people in New York, Washington, Southern California, and other places as well.  The rules are difficult, and the practice common.  And in her case, less than a thousand dollars over a year and a half is hardly something that would be on the top of her mind.
 
You will also note that these issues are familiar.  This is not the first time we have had nominees in trouble for employment taxes, or undocumented help, or tax discrepancies.  The simple frequency of these should be a hint about how common these issues are.
 
But - the larger issue raised by FE stands.  What is the moral standard for high office?  To go to an extreme, I violate the posted speed limit every day.  I have a long record of speeding tickets, and I am completely unrepentant about it.
 
Should that disqualify me from being secretary of whatever?  If not, why not?  My violations resulted in a criminal record - this is not true of any of the violations described above.  Moreover, I willfully and unapologetically continue to break the law, which is probably not the case for the nominees.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2009 at 12:29pm
The issue as I see it, is that government is preaching that we are in this mess because of greedy business...
 
When the facts are that government forced banks to make bad loans...
 
When the government spokepeople are dishonest, and don't follow the rules they impose on us.
 
When the government is about to pass a huge porkbarrel bill that by calling it "stimulus" most people think it is Okey Dokey.
 
Government needs to check itself. We don't need another spending bill, we need tax relief.
 
sign the petition. stop the pork.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaiNTbALLfReNzY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2009 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by PaiNTbALLfReNzY PaiNTbALLfReNzY wrote:

Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:


Isn't comparing your lack of understanding of the self-employment tax with Geithner akin to me comparing my lack of understanding of the String Theory with Steven Hawkins?
I think Stephen Hawking would take great offense at the implication of him being a string theorist :)
My same thought. Stephen Hawking did not discover string theory. One of his colleagues did. Hawking has been searching for the meaning of everything, how the universe was formed, and how gravity fits into it.

 

Where did I state that Hawking discovered String Theory? I am however, sure he has a whole lot better grasp on it than I do and comparing my lack of understanding of it to his, would be an unfair comparison, thus my point.


Point taken
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2009 at 12:56pm
WWWHHHHAAAAAAAAAA MCCAIN LOST WWWWHHHHAAAAAAA
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