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    Posted: 12 January 2009 at 12:15pm

In celebration of the sequicentennial of the publication of Origin of Species (and the bicentennial of Darwin's birth, for that matter), I declare this evolution discussion thread open.

As before, I will attempt to answer any questions I can, and will even commit to doing some research if needed.  But this is not just a Q&A for me, so everybody should contribute as well.

So, bring it on.  Question/statements/comments about all evolution and all things vaguely related welcom.  Abiogenesis, big bang, radiometric dating, flood geology - go nuts.

Even if you are a hard-core Darwinist, I am sure there are issues/questions to discuss.  I know I have some.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 12:25pm
Evolution is a myth.

God's Only Begotten Son died for ALL of the LORD's creatures, two thousand years ago.





Edited by brihard - 12 January 2009 at 12:33pm
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boss_DJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 12:31pm
that movie was terrible

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaiNTbALLfReNzY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 12:31pm
Concerning the big bang theory, how do you suspect the horizon problem to be solved?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unvolution Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 12:46pm
we all came from monkeys... and now we're turning back into them





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 12:51pm

Ok...

So according to Darwin, certain members of our society are "less" evolved than others, which is suppost to "prove" evolution.

They haven't evolved to the point of the average white anglo saxon... (according to darwin).

Evolutionists try to discredit this point of the theory. But, if you believe in evolution, you have to believe that some are "more" evolved than others... Therefore some people have limits as to what they can do, and therefore are less "valuable" than other, more evolved members of society...

The concept is that things get better with time... But, nature/science tells us this isn't the case, with each generation the next generation actually pics up the negatives in their growing gene pool and degrades. This scientific fact is not disputed, and yet it completely disagrees with evolution...

Here is an example

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/08/60II/main700519.sh tml

"The genetic problems come down to something called the "founder effect" because the nearly 150,000 Amish in America can trace their roots back to a few hundred German-Swiss settlers who brought the Amish and Mennonite faiths to the United States in the 18th century. Over generations of intermarriage, rare genetic flaws have shown up, flaws which most of us carry within our genetic makeup but which don't show up unless we marry someone else with the same rare genetic markers."

http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2007/03/norway-immigrant-c hildren-born-with.html

"Many of the illnesses are known syndromes, which come up due to gene mutations.  The mutations lead to deformities in the child because the parents are related and with that have the same mutations.  The Pakistanis and Kurds are among the groups with traditionally marry with relatives according to researcher Torunn Arntsen Sørheim of the Norwegian Center for Minority Health Research.

"We routinely find that there are relations between the parents when we see that a child has a deformity.  In children of immigrants we quite often know that the child's parents are related."  explains Lindemann."

 

So science is telling us that intermarrying will lead to genetic mutations... And genetic mutations lead to death. Not new species... No matter how many years you throw at it.

 

Now, look at what the study of our DNA has shown us.

Hmm. We all come from Eve... (sounds like the description in the Bible, huh...)

http://www.archaeology.org/9609/abstracts/dna.html

The years might be in question. But, in order for the science to be factual. Eve would have to be perfect. Otherwise, the degrading genetic drift from her lineage would have resulted in gene mutation, which science has proven equals death...

Basically, after researching evolution, I saw a belief system that is completely focused on secular humanism, with the goal of eliminating the need for a higher power. Therefore the people that have this viewpoint are blind to the evidence of God in their daily lives, in fact, they want to discredit and "prove" that God isn't real, in order to push their own man centered agenda.

 

This man centered agenda has a problem. When there can be no ultimate "judge". Life becomes what you can "get away" with. Instead of having a moral compass that focuses on Gods will for your life. You can now "choose" your moral direction. If no one knows what you do, then it must be fine.

After all;

 

Survival of the fittest, right?

They tremble at my name...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 1:15pm
If we evolved from monkeys.....how come there are still monkeys?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hysteria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 1:25pm
I'm going to be honest, I came into this thread in hopes of trolling, but after reading this, I immediately changed my plans.

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Ok...

So according to Darwin, certain members of our society are "less" evolved than others, which is suppost to "prove" evolution.

They haven't evolved to the point of the average white anglo saxon... (according to darwin).

Wow.  Just wow.

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

The years might be in question. But, in order for the science to be factual. Eve would have to be perfect. Otherwise, the degrading genetic drift from her lineage would have resulted in gene mutation, which science has proven equals death...

Basically, after researching evolution, I saw a belief system that is completely focused on secular humanism, with the goal of eliminating the need for a higher power. Therefore the people that have this viewpoint are blind to the evidence of God in their daily lives, in fact, they want to discredit and "prove" that God isn't real, in order to push their own man centered agenda.

Every single argument you enter into, you bring in your "you're either with me, or you are being a bigot who is bashing my beliefs" attitude.  No, the goal of those who research and push evolution is not to disprove the Christian God.  Just because something isn't a direct study of something biblical, it is not being done just to spite you.  And for you to completely write evolution off becuase you feel it can not coexist with your beliefs is incredibly immature and closed-minded.

Besides, we have more proof for evolution than you will even find for Allah, Zeus, the Tooth Fairy, or God.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

So according to Darwin, certain members of our society are "less" evolved than others

I am fairly certain Darwin never said this.  Regardless, attaching labels like "more" or "less" to evolution is very tricky.  These terms can sometimes be used to describe the degree of change from a given starting point, which is helpful in virology, for instance, but otherwise the terms are meaningless.  These statements imply a directionality or goal-orientedness that does not exist.

Quote ...which is suppost to "prove" evolution

Not sure what you are getting at here.  This doesn't make sense to me.  Please elaborate.

Quote They haven't evolved to the point of the average white anglo saxon... (according to darwin).

Oh, I see where you are headed.  The old "Darwin was a racist" business.  Well, I am sure he was a racist.  By today's standards, pretty much everybody was back in the day.  I am fairly certain that Darwin did not include any discussion of superiority or inferiority of the various human "races" - I could be wrong.

But either way it is irrelevant.  Evolution stands on its own, regardless of Darwin's racist beliefs.

Quote Evolutionists try to discredit this point of the theory. But, if you believe in evolution, you have to believe that some are "more" evolved than others... Therefore some people have limits as to what they can do, and therefore are less "valuable" than other, more evolved members of society...

All parts of this are false.

First off, it is not part of "the theory" that some human races are superior to others.  Second, as discussed above, the very concept of "more" evolved only makes sense in a very few specific instances, and this is not one of them.

Third, any discussion of "limits" on what people can do would be a discussion of genetic makeup in general, and nature vs. nurture, and so forth - not merely a discussion of (incorrect) evolutionary theory.

Yes, some racist idiots over the years have claimed that black people (for instance) are "less evolved" than white people, and that this is somehow proof of their inferiority.  But anybody making this claim has no understanding whatsoever about evolutionary theory (or is deliberately lying about it), because it makes absolutely no sense.

And, frankly, even if were true, that would also be irrelevant.  Science exists independently of the social ramifications.  A scientific theory is not false just because we dislike the implications.

Quote The concept is that things get better with time... But, nature/science tells us this isn't the case, with each generation the next generation actually pics up the negatives in their growing gene pool and degrades. This scientific fact is not disputed, and yet it completely disagrees with evolution...

All parts of this are false.  The concept is not merely that things get "better" with time, but rather that over time life adapts to its environment.

As to "degradation" - negatives and positives are both passed down generations, but positives are more likely to get passed on than negatives.  Of course, "negative" and "positive" are both relative terms.  Again, the reference point is the environment.  The gene for sickle cell anemia, for instance, is a "negative" in the US, but is a "positive" in Africa.

Smarter isn't always better, stronger isn't always better.  Everything has to be viewed in context of the environment.

Quote Here is an example

[stuff]

So science is telling us that intermarrying will lead to genetic mutations... And genetic mutations lead to death. Not new species... No matter how many years you throw at it.

You are misreading the articles.

What those articles are saying is that intermarrying leads to recombination of recessive genes, which in turns leads to deformity and disease.  The genes were already there, created by mutation generations ago.

And the articles do not say that mutations lead to death.  Some mutations are harmful, yes - but others are beneficial, and most are neither.  Yet others are both harmful and beneficial (arguably most fall in this category).

Quote Now, look at what the study of our DNA has shown us.

Hmm. We all come from Eve... (sounds like the description in the Bible, huh...)

http://www.archaeology.org/9609/abstracts/dna.html

The years might be in question. But, in order for the science to be factual. Eve would have to be perfect. Otherwise, the degrading genetic drift from her lineage would have resulted in gene mutation, which science has proven equals death...

Again, all of the above is incorrect.  Genetic drift is not "degrading."  There is no such thing as genetic "perfection."  Science has not proved that mutation equals death.

Quote Basically, after researching evolution, I saw a belief system that is completely focused on secular humanism, with the goal of eliminating the need for a higher power. Therefore the people that have this viewpoint are blind to the evidence of God in their daily lives, in fact, they want to discredit and "prove" that God isn't real, in order to push their own man centered agenda.

You got that from a biology class?

Quote This man centered agenda has a problem. When there can be no ultimate "judge". Life becomes what you can "get away" with. Instead of having a moral compass that focuses on Gods will for your life. You can now "choose" your moral direction. If no one knows what you do, then it must be fine.

This is irrelevant. 

Scientific theories are true or false regardless of the social implications.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 1:36pm

Don't know much about Darwin, huh Hysteria...

Maybe if you actually read "origin", you could argue it better...

http://www.mediamonitors.net/harunyahya44.html

"

Darwin claimed that the "fight for survival" also applied between human races. "Favored races" emerged victorious from this struggle. According to Darwin the favored race were the European whites. As for Asian and African races, they had fallen behind in the fight for survival.

At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes … will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla. [2]

As we have seen, in his book, The Origin of Species, Darwin saw the natives of Australia and Negroes as being at the same level as gorillas and claimed that these races would disappear. As for the other races which he saw as "inferior," he maintained that it was essential to prevent them multiplying and so for these races to be brought to extinction. So the traces of racism and discrimination which we still come across in our time were approved and lent justification by Darwin in this way.

Darwin's racist side showed its effect in much of his writing and observations."

 

So, yeah, I don't go around tooting the horn for Darwin.

 

He was a racist, of the worst kind. You are welcome to blindly follow him if you want... But, I get enough dribble from the evening news.

They tremble at my name...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 1:38pm

Simple question then.

 

Did we all come from eve?

They tremble at my name...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 1:40pm

Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

If we evolved from monkeys.....how come there are still monkeys?


To be nitpicky, we did not evolve from monkeys.  We share a recent common ancestor with today's great apes - gorillas and chimpanzees.  Chimps are our cousins, not our grandparents.  Technically, we ARE apes, just like them.

So we evolved from earlier apes.  There are three large groups of apes today:  Gorillas, chimps, and humans.  The earlier apes from which we descended are extinct.

This is not necessarily always the case, however.  There are plenty of instances where a new subspecies evolves while the "parent" species lives on.

Speciation usually involves geographic separation.  Say a bunch of birds fly off to a different island.  This new island has a different environment than the old island, so the birds undergo rapid evolution to adapt.  The result may be a new species.  In the meantime, the birds on the old island have been evolving slowly (since there was no changed environment), and are therefore still basically the same species that they were before.

This can be (and has been) easily replicated in a lab with various fast-growing microorganisms.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 1:50pm

Originally posted by PaiNTbALLfReNzY PaiNTbALLfReNzY wrote:

Concerning the big bang theory, how do you suspect the horizon problem to be solved?

I can tell you what the horizon problem is (sort of, anyway), and I can tell you that smart people are thinking about it.

But how (or even if) it will be solved?  WAY above my paygrade and level of understanding.

Call Sir Stephen about that one.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hysteria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 1:51pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Simple question then.

Did we all come from eve?

I don't know and neither do you. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 1:54pm
Free Enterprise, you do realize that other scientists have studied evolution after Darwin, right?  You go to contemporary sources to argue against evolution, yet the only pro-evolution evidence you will argue against comes from a book written 150 years ago.  no matter how much you ignore it, recent scientific studies and experiments DO exist and have proven evolution
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Simple question then.

 

Did we all come from eve?

I will translate your question to mean "was there a single first Homo Sapiens" from which we are all descended?"

My understanding is that this is an issue under much discussion. 

Using studies of mitochondrial DNA it appears fairly certain that all non-African Homo Sapiens descend from a small group (roughly 4,000) that left Africa a ways back.

I am not aware that the mitochondrial DNA has shown any further limiting than that.  I believe the current state of research is that there were likely a number of individuals that "became" Homo Sapiens more or less at the same time.  Certainly a small group, but a single point seems relatively unlikely.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ammolord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 1:57pm
great, now my head hurts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

If we evolved from monkeys.....how come there are still monkeys?


To be nitpicky, we did not evolve from monkeys.  We share a recent common ancestor with today's great apes - gorillas and chimpanzees.  Chimps are our cousins, not our grandparents.  Technically, we ARE apes, just like them.

So we evolved from earlier apes.  There are three large groups of apes today:  Gorillas, chimps, and humans.  The earlier apes from which we descended are extinct.

This is not necessarily always the case, however.  There are plenty of instances where a new subspecies evolves while the "parent" species lives on.

Speciation usually involves geographic separation.  Say a bunch of birds fly off to a different island.  This new island has a different environment than the old island, so the birds undergo rapid evolution to adapt.  The result may be a new species.  In the meantime, the birds on the old island have been evolving slowly (since there was no changed environment), and are therefore still basically the same species that they were before.

This can be (and has been) easily replicated in a lab with various fast-growing microorganisms.



Please, please don't think me idiotic enough to have posted seriously.

Although the answer was great.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hysteria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Simple question then.

 

Did we all come from eve?

I will translate your question to mean "was there a single first Homo Sapiens" from which we are all descended?"

My understanding is that this is an issue under much discussion. 

Using studies of mitochondrial DNA it appears fairly certain that all non-African Homo Sapiens descend from a small group (roughly 4,000) that left Africa a ways back.

I am not aware that the mitochondrial DNA has shown any further limiting than that.  I believe the current state of research is that there were likely a number of individuals that "became" Homo Sapiens more or less at the same time.  Certainly a small group, but a single point seems relatively unlikely.



I'm fairly certain that he didn't actually want an answer.  Rather, he just wanted this discussion to be immediately turned into a religion vs evolution debate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 2:13pm
and to argue your  "the amish prove evolution is a lie" point you made.  Evolution is a theory about genetic variety.  if you just reuse genes from the same source, you arent getting any variety, its still the same genes minus a few insignificant mutations.  Without variety, evolution does not apply. Not to mention  Your amish point, like so many others that come from you, is completley irrelevant. 
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