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DeTrevni View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 4:16pm
There is no God. Prove me wrong.

Actually, I don't care either way. Real or not, it doesn't matter to me. But that's an argument for another time. I'm just playing devil's advocate right now. :)

Oh, and "God's real, prove me wrong" is not a valid response.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

You too have "eve's" dna in your body. So even though you don't know about it, or don't believe it. It is still a scientific fact...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A703199

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

When the scientific world agreed that Eve was the common point of Humans, it put the evolutionary "theory" over the edge, it is now not a theory anymore but a belief system. That must be obeyed regardless if it is proven wrong.

First off, Mitochondrial Eve was not "the common point of humans."  As stated in your own link, she was merely the most recent common female ancestor.  There were certainly others before her, and lots of them.  Genes do the darndest things.

Second, how does this in any way constitute some flaw in evolutionary theory?  Common ancestors are a necessary feature of evolutionary theory.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 4:23pm
yes, because any book written by several opium addicts MUST be factual in its entirety. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 4:26pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Ok, Here is a list of mutations... My contention is that mutations are bad, eventually resulting in death (after it evolves), based on the amount of negative mutations listed. Show me the evidence from this list of all the "positive" mutations...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation

I don't understand your question.  The article you link lists several beneficial mutations, and I have mentioned some as well.

So what is your point?

Moreover, I note that you love citing science (kind of, anyway) when it serves your purpose, but ignore or disregard studies from those selfsame scientists when it appears to contradict your point?  Is your understanding of evolutionary science so great that you can determine that large swaths of studies are false, while others are true?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 4:34pm

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Why don't the evolution supporters show us evidence of species changing from one species into another... Not at the cell level but actual changes, a new species. There are thousands on the earth. I'm sure that there must be that obvious evidence, since it is taught in schools as fact...

Thousands of species, you say?

In any event, the problem here is with expectation, and with understanding. 

Speciation has been identified, proven, and demonstrated on numerous occasions.  Some folks, however, discount the evidence, for a variety of reasons.  Some don't think that microbial speciation counts - lord knows why.  Others don't think it counts if a bird just becomes another kind of bird, expecting for some reason that the birds would suddenly become dogs.

The truth is that evolution is gradual, and (usually) not dramatic.

We can take a dish full of identical microbes, divide them into two populations, subject them to different environments, and in a relatively short time we will have two different species of microbes (who have undergone a series of beneficial mutations to help them adapt to their respective environments).  The only people disappointed by this are the people who thought that the microbes would sprout legs.

For historical speciation, there are many easy examples, starting with Darwin's Finches.  Seagulls around the world provide an amazing illustration of a ring species, which stretches our very concept of a species.

Examples abound.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

FYI, from your own article:

Originally posted by Article that FE cites Article that FE cites wrote:


That's Ridiculous – How Could a Single Being Populate a Planet?

And this is where the confusion sets in. A single organism can't populate a planet (arguments about amoeba aside). The evidence didn't suggest a single woman living in isolation from members of her own species. What it suggested was a genetic bottleneck – a period in human history when the population was so small that the genetic expressions of a single woman could have an impact on all humans living on the planet today.

Obviously you felt it was tldr...

But, if you had read right below the headline you posted...

That's Ridiculous – How Could a Single Being Populate a Planet?

"And this is where the confusion sets in. A single organism can't populate a planet (arguments about amoeba aside). The evidence didn't suggest a single woman living in isolation from members of her own species. What it suggested was a genetic bottleneck – a period in human history when the population was so small that the genetic expressions of a single woman could have an impact on all humans living on the planet today.

She didn't live alone – she would have lived within a community. She didn't just pump babies out, either. There is no reason to suppose that she had more than one female child. But there is reason to suppose that whatever female children she had, they contained specific advantages for survival over the rest of the population."

 

So, actually, like I said, Christians and Science agree.

 

We all came from Eve. Unless you choose to stick your head in the sand and ignore DNA...

Evolution on the other hand, that is where the problems exist.

Why don't the evolution supporters show us evidence of species changing from one species into another... Not at the cell level but actual changes, a new species. There are thousands on the earth. I'm sure that there must be that obvious evidence, since it is taught in schools as fact...

I'll admit, I skimmed the article, but apparently, if you would have read to the conclusion of the article, you would have seen this:

Originally posted by Article FE cited that contradicts his beleifs, so now he will backtrack and say it doesn't say what it says Article FE cited that contradicts his beleifs, so now he will backtrack and say it doesn't say what it says wrote:

Is Any of This True?

Well, yes and no. To get a completely accurate result the tests would have to be performed on every single person living on the planet today. The dates are in dispute, but the date is perhaps the least importmant point. Broadly speaking, populations do pass through bottlenecks. Eve had many ancestors – it helps if you think about her as an hourglass – she was the pinch in the glass through which our genes ran. There had been many more Eves before her, she is just our most recent common ancestor. There will probably be more population bottlenecks and more Mitochondrial Eves in the future.

But, I am sure that now, you will call me a liberal and cite scripture at me.



Edited by oldpbnoob - 12 January 2009 at 5:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

That must be obeyed regardless if it is proven wrong.


I hope the irony of this statement is not lost.
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yomillio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

FYI, from your own article:

Originally posted by Article that FE cites Article that FE cites wrote:


That's Ridiculous – How Could a Single Being Populate a Planet?

And this is where the confusion sets in. A single organism can't populate a planet (arguments about amoeba aside). The evidence didn't suggest a single woman living in isolation from members of her own species. What it suggested was a genetic bottleneck – a period in human history when the population was so small that the genetic expressions of a single woman could have an impact on all humans living on the planet today.

Obviously you felt it was tldr...

But, if you had read right below the headline you posted...

That's Ridiculous – How Could a Single Being Populate a Planet?

"And this is where the confusion sets in. A single organism can't populate a planet (arguments about amoeba aside). The evidence didn't suggest a single woman living in isolation from members of her own species. What it suggested was a genetic bottleneck – a period in human history when the population was so small that the genetic expressions of a single woman could have an impact on all humans living on the planet today.

She didn't live alone – she would have lived within a community. She didn't just pump babies out, either. There is no reason to suppose that she had more than one female child. But there is reason to suppose that whatever female children she had, they contained specific advantages for survival over the rest of the population."

 

So, actually, like I said, Christians and Science agree.

 

We all came from Eve. Unless you choose to stick your head in the sand and ignore DNA...

Evolution on the other hand, that is where the problems exist.

Why don't the evolution supporters show us evidence of species changing from one species into another... Not at the cell level but actual changes, a new species. There are thousands on the earth. I'm sure that there must be that obvious evidence, since it is taught in schools as fact...

I'll admit, I skimmed the article, but apparently, if you would have read to the conclusion of the article, you would have seen this:

Originally posted by Article FE cited that contradicts his beleifs, so now he will backtrack and say it doesn't say what it says Article FE cited that contradicts his beleifs, so now he will backtrack and say it doesn't say what it says wrote:

Is Any of This True?

Well, yes and no. To get a completely accurate result the tests would have to be performed on every single person living on the planet today. The dates are in dispute, but the date is perhaps the least importmant point. Broadly speaking, populations do pass through bottlenecks. Eve had many ancestors – it helps if you think about her as an hourglass – she was the pinch in the glass through which our genes ran. There had been many more Eves before her, she is just our most recent common ancestor. There will probably be more population bottlenecks and more Mitochondrial Eves in the future.

But, I am sure that now, you will call me a liberal and cite scripture at me.



Eve doesn't have ancestors, it says so in Genesis!

/obscure literal interpretation

But seriously, I just want everyone to know that there are plenty of Christians out there who believe in the theory of evolution.  I'm sure FE will point out that its impossible to be a Christian that believes in evolution though, because according to the Bible that's definitely not possible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 6:08pm

I think Charleton Heston said it best.... " Get your hands off me you dirty stinking ape!"

"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 6:36pm
Less copypasta plz.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote K Hop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 8:15pm
Originally posted by Yomillio Yomillio wrote:


But seriously, I just want everyone to know that there are plenty of Christians out there who believe in the theory of evolution.  I'm sure FE will point out that its impossible to be a Christian that believes in evolution though, because according to the Bible that's definitely not possible.


Being a Christian doesn't mean that they are against evolution. And you are right, there are many who believe in God and Evolution. A Christian simply believes Jesus to be the messiah. I know plenty of people who think that God created the earth, then evolution happened.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by DeTrevni DeTrevni wrote:

:)Oh, and "God's real, prove me wrong" is not a valid response.


Actually yes it is. I hate people who use this line of reasoning. There are plenty of written accounts of interactions with a supreme being, there are plenty of establishments world wide that run on the foundation that God exists.

But you simply throw out all of that and state we have to start again.

There is evidence he exists already. Read your Bible. Read your Koran. Read your Talmud. If you are ready to throw that away, then what are you going to do with any new evidence?

There is also plenty of corroborating evidence from the scientific world that something we don't quite conceive is operating in the universe.

How about you bring rock hard evidence that there is no supreme being controlling or at least kicking it off, then we'll decide if providing more proof He does exist is worth the effort.

Personally I've never understood the whole Christianity/Religion .vs Evolution debate. Who's to say the one does not prove the other?

Which is more likely, that we are just the result of an uncountable number of lucky happenings, or that there is a guiding influence?

Both ideas are preposterous. That does not mean either is untrue.

Personally I don't know. I'm an Air Traffic Controller who is simply trying to get through life without hurting anyone else. I don't need to know that physic laws only work on above quantum levels, or if the second word of the first chapter of the fifth book of a religious text means I can or can't eat Crayfish.

I honestly don't see what the big deal is or what difference it makes.

I'm definately not going to use EITHER method to proclaim my race is superior to any others.

Except Australians. They are all criminal sheep shaggers.

KBK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 9:58pm

Originally posted by Kayback Kayback wrote:

Which is more likely, that we are just the result of an uncountable number of lucky happenings, or that there is a guiding influence?

I will disregard the rest of the post, lest this become a silly religion thread.

As to this part - this is a horrible mischaracterization of evolutionary theory.  Moreover, these "lucky happenings" are events that can be observed, measured, and repeated in a laboratory.  The same can not be said for the guiding influence.

There is a tremendous - and I mean tremendous - amount of scientific evidence for the central tenets of evolutionary theory.  There is ZERO scientific evidence for the designing influence - there are some few claims masquerading as science, but they quickly fold under investigation.

Putting the two theories side by side is an incredible insult to science.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote STOcocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by K Hop K Hop wrote:

Originally posted by Yomillio Yomillio wrote:


But seriously, I just want everyone to know that there are plenty of Christians out there who believe in the theory of evolution.  I'm sure FE will point out that its impossible to be a Christian that believes in evolution though, because according to the Bible that's definitely not possible.


Being a Christian doesn't mean that they are against evolution. And you are right, there are many who believe in God and Evolution. A Christian simply believes Jesus to be the messiah. I know plenty of people who think that God created the earth, then evolution happened.


Actually, all Christians should believe in micro evolution. This is a proved scientific fact. If FE tries to argue against that, well stop denying witnessed fact. However, the argument comes in with the true origin of evolution. Do I believe that the human race has change significantly over time? You bet. But where that change started, that's where it gets iffy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 11:09pm

The whole "micro/macro-evolution" bit is a bit of a distraction...

STO - what exactly do you mean by "where that change started?"

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2009 at 11:55pm

Pro video.

I do think that evolution is hostile to religion. If you don't believe the genises account, then part of the bible is wrong. If part of the bible is wrong, how on earth is it the word of god?

(However, I do wish this would have been posted after I finished darwins book  I just started it.)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 January 2009 at 12:01am
Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

There are thousands on the earth.

Thousands of species, you say?

lol.

I had a question or two I would have liked to ask last semester when I actually learned about evolution at the cellular level, but I can't remember now.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 January 2009 at 12:09am


“Evolutionism is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless.” Louis Bounoure. The Advocate, 8 March 1984, p. 17.




Edited by Hades - 13 January 2009 at 12:15am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote __sneaky__ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 January 2009 at 12:20am

^^^Evolution is the cornerstone of modern day Biology. Also, just because someone is an athiest doesnt mean they're going to murder people...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 January 2009 at 1:29am

Originally posted by Kayback Kayback wrote:

Originally posted by DeTrevni DeTrevni wrote:

:)Oh, and "God's real, prove me wrong" is not a valid response.
Blah blah blah... 

I knew I'd get someone all razzed up with that, but I didn't think it would be you.

I'd like to consider myself intelligent enough to know that, "THERE IS NO GOD PROOV ME RONG!!1!" is not a viable argument.



Edited by DeTrevni - 13 January 2009 at 1:30am
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