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You’ll Never Guess What I just Bought

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agentwhale007 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2008 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

What I mean to say is (in terms of accidental deaths, nothing more, nothing less) that cars are more dangerous, based on the fact that since we run into so many more cars than guns EVERY DAY. I like these discussions.


I understand where you are going with it, but my question now would be what does that have to do with guns?

Because of their frequent use, the government does regulate almost every single aspect of cars, from safety-tests to how dark your window tint can be.

I will see where this thread has gone when I get back from my final exam in copy editing class.

Hooray, going from one argument about words to a test on words, grammar and usage.

Something that will be on the test tonight that I can remember from this thread: people cannot die in mishaps or incidents. People die in accidents.

Mishap and incident are too light of words to describe a situation where someone dies.

The more you know...


Edited by agentwhale007 - 10 December 2008 at 5:29pm
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ceesman762 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2008 at 8:01pm
Wow!  this thread took off.  Whale,  Where is the link, I am too lazy/tired to google it.



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FUAC!!!!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hwayhzrd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2008 at 9:29pm
I have increased my personal arsenal since the election.
I have a added a Mossberg 500 12 gauge, a Beretta 96 .40, a Rock Island
Armory 1911 A1 .45.

They join the preexisting Taurus Judge, SKS and Marlin .44 model 1894
saddle rifle.

As they said and Sirius Patriot when the election was called: "three words,
folks ... GUN UP NOW."
If I attack, follow me

If I flee, kill me

If I die, avenge me

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Linus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2008 at 9:50pm
I'm not for an assault weapons ban, but I'm also not against it, there just has yet to be a single logical argument to ban them.


"But they keep weapons out of criminals hands"

Trust me, if a criminal wanted an AK, they would find a way to get one, ban or not. Drugs are illegal, and yet they are still easily had.


"You don't need that kind of firepower"

True, and you also don't need a car that goes over 70mph, yet I don't see anyone trying to ban that...




Are assault weapons needed? No, but they shouldn't be banned just because they are that much more "dangerous" in the hands of criminals.

Will I buy an AR? Nope, but why keep them away from law abiding citizens that do?


^^^ When you can answer that question, let me know.

Edited by Linus - 10 December 2008 at 9:52pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hysteria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 December 2008 at 10:00pm
Originally posted by hwayhzrd hwayhzrd wrote:

I have increased my personal arsenal since the election.
I have a added a Mossberg 500 12 gauge, a Beretta 96 .40, a Rock Island
Armory 1911 A1 .45.

They join the preexisting Taurus Judge, SKS and Marlin .44 model 1894
saddle rifle.

As they said and Sirius Patriot when the election was called: "three words,
folks ... GUN UP NOW."


Wow, you were just mentioned in a recent thread.  Read this, and comply.

Plz.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2008 at 12:52am
Linus is the only one talking the same argument I used with cars.

Cars do kill people. Well people in cars kill people. Driving a car is a skill not everyone has. Many many people out there are at the edge of their skillset simply driving down the road at 30mph. Honestly. When things go wrong, people die. When things are done stupidly, people die, when things are done in adverse conditions, people die.

THIS ISN'T THE ARGUMENT I WAS MAKING.

I asked how come people make cars that go faster than 70mph, and legally sell them.

People, and people like Bolt3, want to ban all guns because they can be used illegally. The whole point of their argument is they can and are used by a very small minority of the population for breaking the law.

EVERY car sold in the world, with the poosible exception of the SMART and some TATA's are capable of breaking the law. The law is a relatively minor one about how fast you can drive down the street, but that being said, every car is a tool for lawbreaking and lawlessness. Infact most companies avdertise how fast their car can get to the illegal speed, and charge you more for cars that can break the law with the least effort. There is huge fanfare about how their latest car can go so much over the speed limit and how quickly it can do it.

The guns to car analogy isn't perfect, however it is very useful because there are certain things it allows. People claim cars are invaluable because modern day life has made it so. Personally I think my self defence weapon is invaluable, because modern day life has made it so.

The car is peaceful .vs guns kill debate, again, not perfect but it helps. Please show me in the users manual where my .22 target pistol is designed to kill? When I shoot targets with it I do not "Kill" them, I am simply seeing how reliably I can use my skills to use a mechanical device to launch a projectile on a predictable ballistic path. How do you see and record it? Either you need to find where the bullets landed or you need to see where they hit. This is what a target is for. Not for destroying, recording.

Now cars. A car is designed to get you from point A to point B, but most are designed to get you there faster than the average person can handle. This makes them dangerous. People using a car and sticking to the speed limit is like me using my guns at a range, safe and controlled. However the cars are still used to break the speed limit every day. They are designed simply to go A to B, but they are capable of being driven faster than the law allows.

On THIS basis they should be banned as this is the reasoning people use to ban guns. Coincidently the most deaths happen when cars are driven fast, against the law. This is similar to firearms. When they are used in controlled enviroments, within the law, not very many people die. But anti-gunners want them banned simply because they might be used to break the law. Fine. Ban my guns for what they might do the second you ban cars for what they might do. Make me put an electronic lock on my gun when cars are electronically limited to the posted speed.

The cars every day vs guns things is actually scarier. Most people are driving cars beyond their ability, often in conditions beyond their ability, every day like you said. How is this considered "normal" while my carrying a firearm is considered the end of civilization? Innocent people DO die when cars are used from A to B more than random people die from CCW.

Most people who take CCW seriously also learn to enhance their skillset. Courses and practice make them more competent with their weapons and thus safer. Proper CCW courses also teach WHEN to shoot, which is more important than simply how. This is the same as taking advanced driving lessons. How many people here can say they've done that? What is the number of advanced driver vs car users and CCW's to advanced lessons?

On other laws, it is an American constitutional right to own firearms, but it isn't a right to own an automobile. Although the general population thinks it is the other way around. And they seem ok to stamp on other's rights just because they don't see a need for it.

AgentWhale007, you made a remark about "getting to a weapon, loading it and confronting an intruder", this is the wrong way to have a weapon. A "Go To" weapon should be ready to run the second you lay your hand on it, and it should be close at hand. My house weapon sits on my hip all the time. And when it isn't it's in a touch open safe next to the bed. An unloaded firearm isn't a weapon it is not a weapon it is a paperweight. And your comment about weapons being stolen is a good one, but any responsible gunowner should at least use a cable trigger lock, but mine live in a safe. A SAFE! you say, how can you get to it quickly? I can't, I'm out remember. So it is fine.

Most people who are anti gun are actually just busy boddies who have no real reason to hate guns except they don't need one so don't see the point of other using them.

KBK

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Tolgak View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2008 at 9:37am
I was about to make my pro-gun case when I saw this.

Ban them... ban them all I say!


Edited by Tolgak - 11 December 2008 at 9:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyHopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2008 at 11:28am
Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:


I was about to make my pro-gun case when I saw this.Ban them... ban them all I say!


Very cool, but a .45 was a stupid choice.


As for the gun debate:
Ded = ded. It doesn't matter if you get all deded up by a crappy driver or a crazed dingbat with a gun. The common denominator is ded and the most good could be accomplished by punishing or preventing the leading causes of deding. Guns don't cause the most ded in the US so why address them first? I for one enjoy the illogical and paranoid level of self-delusion I place on gun ownership and the protection it affords me from black heicoptors and meter readers. It amazes me that more people are scared of a twitchy druggy with a marginally functional 2" barreled .25 than a 70 year-old brain dead prune piloting a Crown Victoria through cheap imports and pedestrians. At least if you are armed you can have a dialouge with the druggy...no amount of guns are going to save you from that crown vic :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2008 at 4:24pm
Personally I think that is cool.

Smart? probably not. But why not? The only issue I have with it is it doesn't look like it is on a shooting range, and I don't know the specs of the remote firing system. How well protected is it? You wouldn't want someone's remote setting it off accidently.

Now he needs to make the heli silent.

+1 on the Crown Vic prune transporter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ANARCHY_SCOUT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2008 at 8:24pm
Guns and Cars Don't kill people, people kill people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hwayhzrd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 December 2008 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by ANARCHY_SCOUT ANARCHY_SCOUT wrote:

Guns and Cars Don't kill people, people kill
people.

People, stupidity and carelessness are the primary factors in earlier-
than-shoulda-been-non-disease-related deaths,
that's a fact.

As for the tool 'o death, dang, if you put your mind to it you can kill
someone with just about ANYTHING.

The human mind (or lack thereof) tends to be the culprit more often than
not ...

Or as the Great One, Ron White so aptly put it:

"If their belly gets too big, they can get a tummy tuck and have a belly
like a cheerleader. If their vision goes bad, you
can have LASIK surgery and have 20/20 vision. If their hearing goes bad,
they can install a device in their ear that will give
you hearing as clear as it was the day you were born. But let me tell you
something, folks: You can't fix stupid. There's not
a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. Stupid is forever.
"


Edited by hwayhzrd - 11 December 2008 at 8:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scotchyscotch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2008 at 3:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2008 at 11:03am

Where to start...  So many tortured analogies...

Anyway:

"Guns don't kill people; people kill people"

A good amount of truth here, of course, yet this bumper sticker also deflects the very real concern about the inherent dangers of firearms.

Yes, firearm accidents/incidents could be significantly reduced by proper training and intelligent behavior, but to claim that this is a complete solution is to claim that Happy Fun Ball is no more dangerous than a soccer ball.  Some things are inherently more dangerous than other things, and firearms are inherently very dangerous indeed.

So while irresponsible or criminal behavior is obviously a large part of the cause of firearm deaths/injuries, the firearms themselves are also a significant contributing cause. 

Guns kill people; people kill people; combining the two makes the killing faster.

 

Cars vs. Guns

This is a great example of the misunderstanding of analogies.  Analogies should be used to illustrate issues, not to claim some actual similarity.

Cars and guns are very different things.  Yet comparing the two does illustrate important policy questions.  It is when people forget that it is an analogy that we get in trouble.

Yes, cars kill lots more people than guns, yet there are no movements out there to ban cars.  This statement correctly illustrates that we cannot simplisticly go straight from dangerous to banning.  Once we go beyond that, the analogy quickly gets tortured, simply because cars and guns are very different things.  You gotta know when to drop the analogy, people.

For instance - I face a potential collision with another car several hundred times a day while driving, and that isn't counting the times when I am walking or when I risk just crashing on my own.  This is true of virtually every American.  On a per-opportunity basis, car deaths are astonishingly low.

I say this not to argue that cars are or are not more safe than firearms, but to illustrate how different cars are from guns, and how difficult it is to make an in-depth comparison.  That doesn't mean that the analogy is useless (I don't think that it is) but that it is very, very limited in application.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2008 at 11:30am
So, I'm guessing none of you would be in favor of banning all handguns, even though they're used for most crimes involving firearms?

Hell of a lot harder to carry a rifle around in your pocket, and if we had a rule like Florida in all states that stated 10 year minimum for having one, people would stop carrying them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2008 at 1:54pm
Abut 100% of speeding fines are done with cars and motorbikes. Ban them as tools of lawlessness.

I'm not in favour of banning handguns because while some are used by criminals, they also have a use for protecting one's self against criminals. Those armed with their own firearms, as well as those armed with knives, bats, and just plain old numbers.

I'm a fairly fit, well trained individual and I can probably hold my own in a fight, but why should I take that risk? Instead of trading blows with someone being violent with me I can draw my gun and possibly shoot them.

This isn't saying I'm gonna bust a cap in someone's ass just for the hell of it, but when it comes down to fighting, there are too many variables for me to count on winning.

And drawing my firearm might mean I don't actually have to use it. This is called "brandishing"in many places and counts in the same severity as actually using it. It many cases it is considered lethal force.

Now change the victim to my 30 year old fiance who is 5'7", and weighs 60kg. He needs some help defending herself from even an average guy. With a firearm she can defend herself from a much more powerful attacker.

Honestly, many many places have decent firearm laws on their books, as well as decent punishments for infractions. New laws aren't needed, simply enforce the ones already on the books. This is generally where the weak point is, not the laws themselves. Signing new laws is high visibility and something you can crow about, but in all honesty a better solution would be stricter enforcement of the current laws before new laws are made.

KBK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr.Awesome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2008 at 2:05pm

quote/ Now change the victim to my 30 year old fiance who is 5'7", and weighs 60kg. He needs some help defending herself from even an average guy. With a firearm she can defend herself from a much more powerful attacker.

And the flipside to that is her attacker might just be looking for her purse, but now a gun is in play, he overwhelms her and uses the gun on her.  Now instead of just losing her purse, she has lost her life.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2008 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by Mr.Awesome Mr.Awesome wrote:

And the flipside to that is her attacker might just be looking for her purse, but now a gun is in play, he overwhelms her and uses the gun on her.  Now instead of just losing her purse, she has lost her life.

This is a good argument for why one might choose not to carry, or choose not to draw - but is it an argument in favor of now ALLOWING carry?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2008 at 2:29pm
Like I said, it isn't going to make her pop a cap in someone's ass just for the hell of it.

If she could get out of the situation without harm, that's what she'll do. Legally you can only shoot if your life is in danger.

But how do people get you bag? "Excuse me please, 'mam, but may I please relieve you of your belongings" Or, "Give me your bag **edited** or I'll kill you!".

The firearm isn't there to protect her bag, it would be there to protect herself from harm. If all he wants is the bag, fine. Bags and their contents are protected by insurance. Her life and her well being is protected by her ability to protect herself and nothing else. Fortunately she is skilled with her Glock.

I love how whenever a person says "CCW" the anti's always give the criminals magical-super-ninja-gun-grabbing skills. It is actually VERY hard to take a weapon away from someone, and in trying to do so you give them the reason and the opportunity to pull the trigger......

KBK

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2008 at 2:32pm

Originally posted by Kayback Kayback wrote:


The firearm isn't there to protect her bag, it would be there to protect herself from harm. If all he wants is the bag, fine.

Do we have any stories or numbers about armed people getting mugged and choosing to hand over the bag/wallet without going for the gun?

(Of course, if the gun is IN the purse, you have a different problem)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2008 at 3:27pm
I don't know where you'd get those numbers, they don't keep stats of things that don't happen. I know of a couple of cases where people did survive possibly lethal encounters by not drawing their weapons, but I also know a greater number of people who have used their firearms for self defence.

Of course those cases where lethal force was not used, it was also not justified, or called for.

The thing about lethal force is it has to be justified, and one part of justifying it is "you've exhausted all other avenues available to you". One possible avenue IS handing over what they demand. The thing is it doesn't always end there. And why should I let you come that close to me unchallenged?

KBK


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