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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRAVELER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2008 at 10:09am
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:



As for the gun show "loophole", it's not a loophole at all. Citizens who legally own firearms are allowed to sell them to others without government infringement. If the buyer is not legally able to buy a gun, it is he who is committing a crime, not the seller.


That sounds like a loophole to me.

If you can go to a gunshow and buy a gun when it is illegal for you to do  so, without the same regulations as a gun store how is it not a loophole?

Holy bad grammar batman^




In a free society, an individual is responsible for his own actions, isn't he? And are we not presumed innocent unless proven otherwise? The burden of proof belongs to the government, not the individual.

Like it or not, gun ownership is now a "right", having been officially defined as such. Should background checks and forms be required before we are allowed to exercise our other rights?

Think about it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRAVELER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2008 at 10:12am
Originally posted by Shub Shub wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:


Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:

As for the gun show "loophole", it's not a loophole at all. Citizens who legally own firearms are allowed to sell them to others without government infringement. If the buyer is not legally able to buy a gun, it is he who is committing a crime, not the seller.
That sounds like a loophole to me.If you can go to a gunshow and buy a gun when it is illegal for you to do  so, without the same regulations as a gun store how is it not a loophole?Holy bad grammar batman^


The buyer still has to undergo and pass a background check.


That's not necessarily true. I can't buy a gun from one of the dealers without the background check, but I can sell to or buy from another private individual at a gun show without filling out any forms or submitting to a background check.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2008 at 10:14am
Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:



As for the gun show "loophole", it's not a loophole at all. Citizens who legally own firearms are allowed to sell them to others without government infringement. If the buyer is not legally able to buy a gun, it is he who is committing a crime, not the seller.


That sounds like a loophole to me.

If you can go to a gunshow and buy a gun when it is illegal for you to do  so, without the same regulations as a gun store how is it not a loophole?

Holy bad grammar batman^




In a free society, an individual is responsible for his own actions, isn't he? And are we not presumed innocent unless proven otherwise? The burden of proof belongs to the government, not the individual.

Like it or not, gun ownership is now a "right", having been officially defined as such. Should background checks and forms be required before we are allowed to exercise our other rights?

Think about it. 


Gun ownership is a right. A right which many people abuse.

If people that want guns have to fill out forms and wait a while to keep less guns in the hands of criminals(I'm not naive I know there are other ways to get them) or people who may use them then so be it.

Big deal, you have to wait to blow holes in paper, or shoot animals that there is absolutely no reason to shoot.


For the record, I like guns. Just to get that out of the way.
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2008 at 10:17am
OUTTA MA COLD DEAD HANS

Anyway I'm a gun owner. And a liberal. Go figure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2008 at 10:22am
Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

OUTTA MA COLD DEAD HANS

Anyway I'm a gun owner. And a liberal. Go figure.


WHAAAAT??

You've thrown my entire conception of reality for a spinning loop that I'll likely not recover from for some time.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRAVELER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2008 at 10:34am
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:



As for the gun show "loophole", it's not a loophole at all. Citizens who legally own firearms are allowed to sell them to others without government infringement. If the buyer is not legally able to buy a gun, it is he who is committing a crime, not the seller.


That sounds like a loophole to me.

If you can go to a gunshow and buy a gun when it is illegal for you to do  so, without the same regulations as a gun store how is it not a loophole?

Holy bad grammar batman^




In a free society, an individual is responsible for his own actions, isn't he? And are we not presumed innocent unless proven otherwise? The burden of proof belongs to the government, not the individual.

Like it or not, gun ownership is now a "right", having been officially defined as such. Should background checks and forms be required before we are allowed to exercise our other rights?

Think about it. 


Gun ownership is a right. A right which many people abuse.

If people that want guns have to fill out forms and wait a while to keep less guns in the hands of criminals(I'm not naive I know there are other ways to get them) or people who may use them then so be it.

Big deal, you have to wait to blow holes in paper, or shoot animals that there is absolutely no reason to shoot.


For the record, I like guns. Just to get that out of the way.


To quote old common law "the misuse of (your choice of rights here) does not abrogate the lawful use thereof".




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ceesman762 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2008 at 10:43am
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:



As for the gun show "loophole", it's not a loophole at all. Citizens who legally own firearms are allowed to sell them to others without government infringement. If the buyer is not legally able to buy a gun, it is he who is committing a crime, not the seller.


That sounds like a loophole to me.

If you can go to a gunshow and buy a gun when it is illegal for you to do  so, without the same regulations as a gun store how is it not a loophole?

Holy bad grammar batman^




In a free society, an individual is responsible for his own actions, isn't he? And are we not presumed innocent unless proven otherwise? The burden of proof belongs to the government, not the individual.

Like it or not, gun ownership is now a "right", having been officially defined as such. Should background checks and forms be required before we are allowed to exercise our other rights?

Think about it. 


Gun ownership is a right. A right which many people abuse.

If people that want guns have to fill out forms and wait a while to keep less guns in the hands of criminals(I'm not naive I know there are other ways to get them) or people who may use them then so be it.

Big deal, you have to wait to blow holes in paper, or shoot animals that there is absolutely no reason to shoot.


For the record, I like guns. Just to get that out of the way.

Nicely put jmac.  with one addition, mandatory Fire arms safety course.  I have nearly been killed by some jack ass who doesn't get the concept of fire arm safety. 
Innocence proves nothing
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evil Elvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2008 at 10:44am
How do you abuse the Right to bear arms? By buying 200 guns? how does that harm anyone?

Now the Freedom of Press I belive has been abused when Newspapers and Media outlets endorce political candidates and plaster their faces and run select stories about X candidate and send dirt digging teams arround to dig dirt on candidates to sway the votes of people and move them to their point of view.

I think that it should be illegal for media outlets who are souposed to be neutral reporting entities to endorce any character. Since peple are raised to belive that you can trust what the newspapers or news report.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skillet42565 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2008 at 10:56am
Originally posted by pb125 pb125 wrote:

Stop clinging to your guns you damn redneck.


You're dumb.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2008 at 11:02am
Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:


To quote old common law "the misuse of (your choice of rights here) does not abrogate the lawful use thereof".


Clearly the point of gun laws is to prevent the unmonitored transfer of firearms.  Closing this loophole just brings it into the fold, it doesn't prevent you from owning firearms.

I am all for tracking firearms and, if it comes to it, ammunition.

However, I am against any sort of unreasonable taxation on firearms--while that doesn't mean they can't be taxed more, I do think that it is a right to own them, and making ammo difficult to by violates that right.

Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

OUTTA MA COLD DEAD HANS

Anyway I'm a gun owner. And a liberal. Go figure.


WHAAAAT??

You've thrown my entire conception of reality for a spinning loop that I'll likely not recover from for some time.


ROFL freakin' quaffle.

Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:

How do you abuse the Right to bear arms? By buying 200 guns? how does that harm anyone?


I agree.  I also think that those guns should all be registered, so if someone gets shot with one, the police have a paper trail to put together their case.

Quote
Now the Freedom of Press I belive has been abused when Newspapers and Media outlets endorce political candidates and plaster their faces and run select stories about X candidate and send dirt digging teams arround to dig dirt on candidates to sway the votes of people and move them to their point of view.

I think that it should be illegal for media outlets who are souposed to be neutral reporting entities to endorce any character. Since peple are raised to belive that you can trust what the newspapers or news report.


Negative.  No where does it say that newspapers must be unbiased.  It's up to the American people to decide what is true or false, and to analyze what they hear.  If you can't pull that off...well, you're in the boat with at least 50% of Americans.


Edited by ParielIsBack - 07 November 2008 at 11:05am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2008 at 11:05am
Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:



As for the gun show "loophole", it's not a loophole at all. Citizens who legally own firearms are allowed to sell them to others without government infringement. If the buyer is not legally able to buy a gun, it is he who is committing a crime, not the seller.


That sounds like a loophole to me.

If you can go to a gunshow and buy a gun when it is illegal for you to do  so, without the same regulations as a gun store how is it not a loophole?

Holy bad grammar batman^




In a free society, an individual is responsible for his own actions, isn't he? And are we not presumed innocent unless proven otherwise? The burden of proof belongs to the government, not the individual.

Like it or not, gun ownership is now a "right", having been officially defined as such. Should background checks and forms be required before we are allowed to exercise our other rights?

Think about it. 


Gun ownership is a right. A right which many people abuse.

If people that want guns have to fill out forms and wait a while to keep less guns in the hands of criminals(I'm not naive I know there are other ways to get them) or people who may use them then so be it.

Big deal, you have to wait to blow holes in paper, or shoot animals that there is absolutely no reason to shoot.


For the record, I like guns. Just to get that out of the way.


To quote old common law "the misuse of (your choice of rights here) does not abrogate the lawful use thereof".





So you need your gun so badly that you can't deal with a little bit of regulation and paperwork helping to keep them out of the hands of wrong people?

Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRAVELER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2008 at 11:06am
Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:

How do you abuse the Right to bear arms? By buying 200 guns? how does that harm anyone?

Now the Freedom of Press I belive has been abused when Newspapers and Media outlets endorce political candidates and plaster their faces and run select stories about X candidate and send dirt digging teams arround to dig dirt on candidates to sway the votes of people and move them to their point of view.

I think that it should be illegal for media outlets who are souposed to be neutral reporting entities to endorce any character. Since peple are raised to belive that you can trust what the newspapers or news report.


What media? News is entertainment. It's all about selling. Circulation, ratings, advertisement revenue, etc. Journalism has never been objective, and I think those who report the news feel some sort of guilt or disgust for themselves, and vent it by personally identifying themselves as "defenders of the defenseless". In short, they become liberals.

They are products of their upbringing (pampered), and their universities (needs no explanation). Their point of view is predictable and lamentable. They hate being part of a money hungry corporation, and express their angst the only way they are able.

Yes, they got their man elected this time. I'm curious to see the results. I sincerely wish Obama the best, but I'm rather glad that I live in Japan now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2008 at 11:09am
Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:

How do you abuse the Right to bear arms? By buying 200 guns? how does that harm anyone?

 


By shooting people in the face?


Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enmity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2008 at 11:12am
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:

How do you abuse the Right to bear arms? By buying 200 guns? how does that harm anyone?

 


By shooting people in the face?




Not everyone who owns guns is going to shoot people, it's the people who illegally own guns that are going to shoot people and commit crimes.

As for the application, put it in right away, because as said it could take up to 6 months. That's why I love Pennsylvania, my dad walked in to a gun store, put in his application, 48 hours later received a call that he was ready to go, bought his gun and walked out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2008 at 11:16am
In Ohio, I walked into a gun store, filled out the form, and walked out with a gun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRAVELER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2008 at 11:21am
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:



As for the gun show "loophole", it's not a loophole at all. Citizens who legally own firearms are allowed to sell them to others without government infringement. If the buyer is not legally able to buy a gun, it is he who is committing a crime, not the seller.


That sounds like a loophole to me.

If you can go to a gunshow and buy a gun when it is illegal for you to do  so, without the same regulations as a gun store how is it not a loophole?

Holy bad grammar batman^




In a free society, an individual is responsible for his own actions, isn't he? And are we not presumed innocent unless proven otherwise? The burden of proof belongs to the government, not the individual.

Like it or not, gun ownership is now a "right", having been officially defined as such. Should background checks and forms be required before we are allowed to exercise our other rights?

Think about it. 


Gun ownership is a right. A right which many people abuse.

If people that want guns have to fill out forms and wait a while to keep less guns in the hands of criminals(I'm not naive I know there are other ways to get them) or people who may use them then so be it.

Big deal, you have to wait to blow holes in paper, or shoot animals that there is absolutely no reason to shoot.


For the record, I like guns. Just to get that out of the way.


To quote old common law "the misuse of (your choice of rights here) does not abrogate the lawful use thereof".





So you need your gun so badly that you can't deal with a little bit of regulation and paperwork helping to keep them out of the hands of wrong people?



To quote: "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

This is not ambiguous language. It is simple and straightforward. This is no less a right than any other you have. If you can regulate or abolish this right, then you can lose any of the others just as easily.

"The pen is mightier than the sword" they say, but a pen needs a sword to defend itself.

As you mentioned before, guns will fall into the wrong hands regardless of the law. Guns are illegal in Mexico, but thousands have been shot this year, have they not? I live in Japan, which has some of the strictest firearms laws in the world, but guns can still be found here.

America is not a democracy or a collective. It is a republic where individual rights are held the most precious. It means that individuals are responsible for their own actions, good or bad. But it also means that the rights of individuals will not be infringed upon because of the actions of a few.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2008 at 11:27am
Originally posted by Enmity Enmity wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:

How do you abuse the Right to bear arms? By buying 200 guns? how does that harm anyone?

 


By shooting people in the face?




Not everyone who owns guns is going to shoot people, it's the people who illegally own guns that are going to shoot people and commit crimes.


Thanks Captain Obvious.

That doesn't mean a criminal who has never been convicted of a crime, but arrested, couldn't buy a gun.(I am not sure about this).
I think being arrested for most crimes(I am not writing a bill so I am not getting specific) should disqualify you from gun use.

I think they should check mental health records to qualify you for gun use.

People that aren't criminals but own guns can still commit a crime.

I also know that none of this foolproof, criminals will still get illegal guns, people may go crazy that never showed any signs of doing so.



Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2008 at 11:30am
Traveler, people like you tend to leave out the rest of that amendment.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2008 at 11:33am
Originally posted by TRAVELER TRAVELER wrote:



To quote: "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

This is not ambiguous language. It is simple and straightforward. This is no less a right than any other you have. If you can regulate or abolish this right, then you can lose any of the others just as easily.


Ooops. Too late.  There is a clear modern precedent for regulation.  This loophole is just that, a loophole in the modern precedent.  Stop quoting the Constitution in a way that is clearly not the modern interpretation.

Quote
"The pen is mightier than the sword" they say, but a pen needs a sword to defend itself.


I'm not sure I buy that.  But given the modern state of America, I will acquiesce to it.

Quote
As you mentioned before, guns will fall into the wrong hands regardless of the law. Guns are illegal in Mexico, but thousands have been shot this year, have they not? I live in Japan, which has some of the strictest firearms laws in the world, but guns can still be found here.


So clearly regulation to prevent guns from falling into the wrong hands (Virginia Tech, anyone?  Someone forgot to check a database and people got killed.  OK, that may not be the whole story, but the point stands.), and to allow the police to prosecute the owners/users when guns are used in crimes is stupid?  Please, do tell.

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America is not a democracy or a collective. It is a republic where individual rights are held the most precious. It means that individuals are responsible for their own actions, good or bad. But it also means that the rights of individuals will not be infringed upon because of the actions of a few.


Bull-poopy.  There's regulation in business, there's regulation in education; this is just about regulation.  Learn to be regulated like everyone else.  Your rights as an individual are earned, whether you like it or not.  Whether you have a drivers license, a firearms license, a high school or college diploma, you have to earn that right, even if only by age.  "Born free and equal" my butt.

Note: not all curses are made equal.


Edited by ParielIsBack - 07 November 2008 at 11:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRAVELER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 November 2008 at 11:36am
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Originally posted by Enmity Enmity wrote:

Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:

How do you abuse the Right to bear arms? By buying 200 guns? how does that harm anyone?

 


By shooting people in the face?




Not everyone who owns guns is going to shoot people, it's the people who illegally own guns that are going to shoot people and commit crimes.


Thanks Captain Obvious.

That doesn't mean a criminal who has never been convicted of a crime, but arrested, couldn't buy a gun.(I am not sure about this).
I think being arrested for most crimes(I am not writing a bill so I am not getting specific) should disqualify you from gun use.

I think they should check mental health records to qualify you for gun use.

People that aren't criminals but own guns can still commit a crime.

I also know that none of this foolproof, criminals will still get illegal guns, people may go crazy that never showed any signs of doing so.





If you are ever convicted of a felony, charged with domestic violence, or are declared mentally incompetent, then you are prohibited from owning a gun.

In some states, it is illegal to share medical information, including information about mental competency. More often than not, if you are ever declared mentally incompetent, no law enforcement agency will be able to find out unless they petition the state where the records are held.

If you are ever found by the police to be in possession of a gun, they will do a check to see if any of the above apply. If they do, then you'll be arrested, and the gun confiscated.

I like Florida's law, known as 10, 20, life. If you use a gun in a crime, you get 10 years in prison, period. If you shoot someone, you'll do 20 years to life. There is no early release, parole, or good time. As they say in the ad, "use a gun, and you're done".
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