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Benjichang View Drop Down
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Points: 12519 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 10:42am
I didn't ask anyone to prove their beliefs. Just saying atheists don't have to prove the nonexistence of a god to anyone. If it were possible, however, the people claiming there is a god are making the more extraordinary claim, as Bruce said. (Which is what I was originally going for)

I'm not trying to convert anyone to atheism. If God is a part of your life and you derive pleasure from that, then by all means, believe what you want.

I get on with my daily life just fine without believing in a deity. It's just not something I'm interested in debating. Some people get very emotionally distressed if I calmly disagree with something they've based their whole life on.
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Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Say your sick. I mean REALLY sick. Doctors tell you, that you are about to die. No hope.

 

Do you pray to God for a miracle?

No. If it really was looking hopeless, rather than cling to false hope, I'd try to take what time I had left and spend it with those close to me.

I don't believe in miracles.
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Bruce Banner View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Santa Clause isn't as long lived or as world wide a phenomenon as a belief in a higher power is. Shrugging off the idea of a fat guy delivering free stuff is one thing. Shrugging off the idea of a supreme being heading the creation of everything including science in the same theoretical basis is sort of like comparing apples to duct tape.

They are only different if you think they are different, which is obviously a bit circular.

I see the similarities:  An elaborate structure that requires violations of all known physical laws on a massive scale, and which has zero confirmable supporting evidence.

Ghosts, black cats, psychics, Santa Clause, god - they are all the same to me.  Just because one set of beliefs is more elaborate than the others does not make it any more believeable.

Similarly, other superstitions are as widespread as religion - ghosts and fortunetellers, for instance.  Does the widespread nature of these beliefs lend credibility?

Also:

 

EDIT - brihard, don't you have a war to fight, or did you win that one already?  And FE, you know you are in trouble when junky is pointing out flaws in your anti-evolution rhetoric.



Edited by Bruce Banner - 04 November 2008 at 10:46am
Waste and excess are not conservative family values
Nature is not a liberal plot
A Good Energy Plan
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Benjichang View Drop Down
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I pwned Leroy Jenkins!

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Well Reb does believe in superstitions IIRC.
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adrenalinejunky View Drop Down
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Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

FE- copypasta from thedefender.org? come on, you aren't
even trying.

Evolution within a species is exactly what
macroevolution is- extended over the course of many
hundreds of thousands of generations. If a species
breeds once every twenty years, for two million years,
that's one hundred thousand generations of that species.
If one small difference is happening every hundredth
generation as a result of spontaneous mutation, natural
or sexual selection, etc, that's still a thousand little
differences happening one at a time. Over that lengthy
time period a species very gradually changes from one
form to another.


its one thing to claim this, and yet another to demonstrate, as far as i'm aware, science has never demonstrated speciation, and to claim that its possible as a simple extension of micro-evolution is to overstate what we know about evolution.

Quote
Think of it in terms of frames of a moving animation. If
you have one hundred thousand frames showing an
animation of a black dot slowly moving from one point on
a white screen to another, no two subsequent frames will
be distinguishable from one another. But takes frames
that are, say, one thousand frames apart, and you'll see
a difference. That's analogous to the sketchy fossil
record we have on most species. Species appear radically
different as they have evolved simply because all we
have are snapshots taken at huge intervals of time and
generations.


i disagree with that analogy, as i said in my earlier post, the holes in the fossil record are not complete disproof of evolution, however, in a logical sense, they do seem rather weak compared to what one would think they should be were this true.

Quote
It's amusing for you to claim that those of us who are
atheists or agnostics feel a compulsion to prove there's
no God. I certainly feel no need; I could really care
less. I don't go out trying to prove there's no Easter
Bunny, or Santa Clause, or Great Pumpkin. I put my
faith, as it were, in hypotheses that can be
scientifically tested, and which survive those tests
over many iterations and attempts.

If there IS a God, I'll find out in seventy years or so
(hopefully not much sooner than that, but who knows). If
there's a God that is as omnipotent and omniscient as it
is supposed to be, surely it can see past the petty
doctrinal and sectarian nonsense we humans feel are
necessary in the observance of a faith, and will instead
judge me based on how I've lived my life. I cannot
imagine any creature that powerful that would give half
a damn what we mere humans think about anything, nor one
so petulantly in need of our worship as the God of the
old testament seems to be. I also don't see the concept
of God and evolution as exclusive of each other- why
could some God not set the cosmic experiment in motion,
sit back for a couple billion years, crack a couple of
cold ones and see what happens?
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strike 1 11/24/08 language

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Points: 4771 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrenalinejunky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 10:53am
Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

And FE, you know you are in trouble when junky is pointing out flaws in your anti-evolution rhetoric.



haha... sadly enough its something i've done alot.....

i take issue with flawed arguements - whether they try to support or attack my position.
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Reb Cpl View Drop Down
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Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:


  I also don't see the concept
of God and evolution as exclusive of each other- why
could some God not set the cosmic experiment in motion,
sit back for a couple billion years, crack a couple of
cold ones and see what happens?


This is sort of the camp I'm sitting in. For me to deny scientific evidence of evolution, natural selection, etc. would be absolutely moronic. There's far too much evidence for it all to be coincidence.

However, why should that stop me from believing that there is a higher power out there somewhere who kicked off the entire process? Evolution on this planet is one thing. The overall creation of the entire universe is a little more theoretical in nature.


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Bruce Banner View Drop Down
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Originally posted by adrenalinejunky adrenalinejunky wrote:

Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

And FE, you know you are in trouble when junky is pointing out flaws in your anti-evolution rhetoric.



haha... sadly enough its something i've done alot.....

i take issue with flawed arguements - whether they try to support or attack my position.

I share your pain.

In any event, there is a variety of learning of observed speciation.  The problem is that critics of evolutionary theory often have a rather specific concept of what "speciation" means, which leads them to be disappointed by the evidence.

Nevertheless, good article here.
Waste and excess are not conservative family values
Nature is not a liberal plot
A Good Energy Plan
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Reb Cpl View Drop Down
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Points: 13867 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 11:06am
Bruce, thanks to my work filter I can't see the picture you posted.

But in terms of widespread belief lending credence to a theory, I'm going to say 'not necessarily.' But also point out that, like religion, it is difficult to prove that such things AREN'T legitimate.

You say that not being able to prove they DON'T exist is ample enough for you, but my not being able to prove they DO, is enough for you to shake your head and deem my theories out in left field.

(this being said, I am not exactly a believer in all superstitious and off the wall mumb-jumbo just because it's wide spread, I'm only trying to make a point)

A new point of view- what if the widespread and long standing belief in a higher power, despite the overwhelming opposition, IS the proof that you're looking for? God, as a tangible being is about as believable (even to me) as the tooth fairy.

Some might claim that mass religious belief is nothing more than widespread stupidity. What if they're so far off base they're not even in the same ball park?

You lack the tangible evidence that God exists, therefore it is enough for you to say that "If I can't see him, he ain't there"

Couldn't it be enough that the belief in a higher power that has lasted through industrial revolutions, scientific breakthroughs and mass ideological sparring can count as evidence?

Perhaps I'm reaching, but it was a line of thought that entered my head as I was typing.


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Mack View Drop Down
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Points: 9694 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 11:08am
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

What simply happens is that the weakest members
of a species in any given generation will tend towards
less reproductive success.


So . . . what are the ramifications of this statement as applied to Stealth?

On a serious note; I have tried so hard to ignore FE's posts but now I find I can no longer do so.  With that in mind, I am forced to respond to some of the more annoying parts of his last post.

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Tom Phillips said it best. . . .

". . . . By definition, science is based upon what we observe in the physical world and logical inference from what we observe"

Using that logic, based on what I can physically observe and infer, the world is flat.

. . . Such "spontaneous generation," disproved long ago, has never been observed. . . .

This is an amazing example of "head in the sand" logic.  (I.e. if I didn't see it, it can't be true.)  Using this logic, I can avoid any possible negative outcomes in the future by merely closing my eyes and putting my hands over my ears.  Why didn't I think of this before.

Instead, we always observe that life comes from previous life - and, as Scripture teaches, ultimately from an ever-living God.

Given the previous logic, it seems contradictory to accept the word of a book that was written/rewritten/edited centuries ago which asserts the existence of a supreme being and states that such existence must be accepted on faith as opposed to observation.

Evolution also asserts one life form can change into another, higher form - something also never observed and thus unscientific. Instead, we always observe exactly what Genesis states numerous times: Life reproduces "according to its kind," i.e., cats beget cats, crickets beget crickets, etc. They never change into something else. With microbiology, we understand why.

Wrong. Certain dinosaurs evolved into birds.  Here's a link to your favorite source that explains it.  The first paragraph covers how this is now a generally accepted conclusion and provides an overview of why this is so. The section labeled "Molecular evidence and soft tissue" should be especially interesting given the mention of microbiology in the original post.

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Bruce-

Bite your tongue. I'm working constant twelve hour days at the main entry checkpoint to the airfield these days and for the next month. My
job is slowly, steadily sucking my soul. Literally the highlight of my time working gate so far was when I 'got' to have a break in the routine by
working on a security contractor who got shot in the neck and was dropped off for us to deal with.

In the spectrum of crappiness, I think it goes my job > getting teeth pulled > debating evolution on the internet. Compared to dealing with some of
the locals, the crowd here in T&O is like a fount of academic maturity.

I need a nice simply online argument to keep my sanity right now..
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
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Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Say your sick. I mean REALLY sick. Doctors tell you, that you are about to die. No hope.

 

Do you pray to God for a miracle?

I always had an issue with this. If God is all knowing, allseeing, omnipotent and has complete control and a master plan....what good is praying going to do anyways? Going by common Christian beleifs, God has a plan and it is not ours to question. Isn't praying for Him to change His mind questioning Him? Unless you are praying for understanding, than you are wasting your time.

"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:


  I also don't see the concept
of God and evolution as exclusive of each other- why
could some God not set the cosmic experiment in motion,
sit back for a couple billion years, crack a couple of
cold ones and see what happens?


This is sort of the camp I'm sitting in. For me to deny scientific evidence of evolution, natural selection, etc. would be absolutely moronic. There's far too much evidence for it all to be coincidence.

However, why should that stop me from believing that there is a higher power out there somewhere who kicked off the entire process? Evolution on this planet is one thing. The overall creation of the entire universe is a little more theoretical in nature.


Frankly, that's my view too.  I find it a little difficult to believe that we know everything there is about the creation of the universe already, and I really don't have any problems seeing the Biblical account of creation meeting up with the scientific account of evolution.

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I always had an issue with this. If God is all knowing, allseeing, omnipotent and has complete control and a master plan....what good is praying going to do anyways? Going by common Christian beleifs, God has a plan and it is not ours to question. Isn't praying for Him to change His mind questioning Him? Unless you are praying for understanding, than you are wasting your time.



Well sure...if you look at it from the normal viewpoint of the world.  But that argument isn't actually based in theology.
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Can't we just say God caused the Big Bang and get it over with?
Que pasa?


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Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Can't we just say God caused the Big Bang and get it over with?


Well, that would be convenient.

But I don't think it completely explains events from "the beginning of time" either theologically or scientifically.  I think that's kinda the point...
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Right, what about what existed BEFORE the big bang? 


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Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:


Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I always had an issue with this. If God is all knowing, allseeing, omnipotent and has complete control and a master plan....what good is praying going to do anyways? Going by common Christian beleifs, God has a plan and it is not ours to question. Isn't praying for Him to change His mind questioning Him? Unless you are praying for understanding, than you are wasting your time.


Well sure...if you look at it from the normal viewpoint of the world.  But that argument isn't actually based in theology.

What theology are you studying/practicing that allows you to question God and the reason he does things? Isn't Christianity specifically based on faith that God exists and knows what he is doing? How many times have you heard to "give God control", "put your fate in God's hands"? Do you really think that self serving prayer will result in Him changing His mind? I look forward to a good explanation on this, as I have never gotten it.

"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

Originally posted by adrenalinejunky adrenalinejunky wrote:

Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

And FE, you know you are in trouble when junky is pointing out flaws in your anti-evolution rhetoric.


haha... sadly enough its something i've done alot..... i take issue with flawed arguements - whether they try to support or attack my position.


I share your pain.


In any event, there is a variety of learning of observed speciation.  The problem is that critics of evolutionary theory often have a rather specific concept of what "speciation" means, which leads them to be disappointed by the evidence.


Nevertheless, good article here.



i think i have seen that before, and like you said, i wasnt overly impressed..
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SARCASM DETECTOR IS BROKEN CAPTAIN
Que pasa?


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Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I always had an issue with this. If God is all knowing, allseeing, omnipotent and has complete control and a master plan....what good is praying going to do anyways? Going by common Christian beleifs, God has a plan and it is not ours to question. Isn't praying for Him to change His mind questioning Him? Unless you are praying for understanding, than you are wasting your time.
Well sure...if you look at it from the normal viewpoint of the world.  But that argument isn't actually based in theology.


What theology are you studying/practicing that allows you to question God and the reason he does things? Isn't Christianity specifically based on faith that God exists and knows what he is doing? How many times have you heard to "give God control", "put your fate in God's hands"? Do you really think that self serving prayer will result in Him changing His mind? I look forward to a good explanation on this, as I have never gotten it.



Exodus 32:14 (New American Standard Bible)
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

14(A)So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

in context

based on biblical precident, i would have to say yes, he can change his mind.

biblical precident also shows a great deal having to do with answered prayer, for instance.

Genesis 25:21 (New American Standard Bible)
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

     
21Isaac prayed to the LORD on behalf of his wife, because she was barren; and (A)the LORD answered him and Rebekah his wife (B)conceived.


there are also numerous examples in the bible telling us to pray.

Matthew 7:7 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.


as far as why God would want it this way, its tough to say, perhaps as a logical extension of free will.

Edited by adrenalinejunky - 04 November 2008 at 12:03pm
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