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ParielIsBack View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 November 2008 at 8:48am
Sly insertion of the 'H' over there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2008 at 8:29am
hahahaha Hysteria.

So when and where do I sign up to join this police force?

I suppose training must begin soon.
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hysteria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2008 at 2:42am



Edited by Hysteria - 05 November 2008 at 2:44am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Right, what about what existed BEFORE the big bang? 


It's been a long time since this forum saw a 'your mom' joke, but in my current fatigue-delirious state it strikes me as appropriate here.


Fair enough.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Right, what about what existed BEFORE the big bang? 


It's been a long time since this forum saw a 'your mom' joke, but in my current fatigue-delirious state it strikes me as appropriate here.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrenalinejunky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I always had an issue with this. If God is all knowing, allseeing, omnipotent and has complete control and a master plan....what good is praying going to do anyways? Going by common Christian beleifs, God has a plan and it is not ours to question. Isn't praying for Him to change His mind questioning Him? Unless you are praying for understanding, than you are wasting your time.
Well sure...if you look at it from the normal viewpoint of the world.  But that argument isn't actually based in theology.


What theology are you studying/practicing that allows you to question God and the reason he does things? Isn't Christianity specifically based on faith that God exists and knows what he is doing? How many times have you heard to "give God control", "put your fate in God's hands"? Do you really think that self serving prayer will result in Him changing His mind? I look forward to a good explanation on this, as I have never gotten it.



Exodus 32:14 (New American Standard Bible)
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

14(A)So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

in context

based on biblical precident, i would have to say yes, he can change his mind.

biblical precident also shows a great deal having to do with answered prayer, for instance.

Genesis 25:21 (New American Standard Bible)
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

     
21Isaac prayed to the LORD on behalf of his wife, because she was barren; and (A)the LORD answered him and Rebekah his wife (B)conceived.


there are also numerous examples in the bible telling us to pray.

Matthew 7:7 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.


as far as why God would want it this way, its tough to say, perhaps as a logical extension of free will.

Edited by adrenalinejunky - 04 November 2008 at 12:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 11:51am
SARCASM DETECTOR IS BROKEN CAPTAIN
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrenalinejunky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 11:50am
Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

Originally posted by adrenalinejunky adrenalinejunky wrote:

Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

And FE, you know you are in trouble when junky is pointing out flaws in your anti-evolution rhetoric.


haha... sadly enough its something i've done alot..... i take issue with flawed arguements - whether they try to support or attack my position.


I share your pain.


In any event, there is a variety of learning of observed speciation.  The problem is that critics of evolutionary theory often have a rather specific concept of what "speciation" means, which leads them to be disappointed by the evidence.


Nevertheless, good article here.



i think i have seen that before, and like you said, i wasnt overly impressed..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 11:48am

Originally posted by ParielIsBack ParielIsBack wrote:


Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I always had an issue with this. If God is all knowing, allseeing, omnipotent and has complete control and a master plan....what good is praying going to do anyways? Going by common Christian beleifs, God has a plan and it is not ours to question. Isn't praying for Him to change His mind questioning Him? Unless you are praying for understanding, than you are wasting your time.


Well sure...if you look at it from the normal viewpoint of the world.  But that argument isn't actually based in theology.

What theology are you studying/practicing that allows you to question God and the reason he does things? Isn't Christianity specifically based on faith that God exists and knows what he is doing? How many times have you heard to "give God control", "put your fate in God's hands"? Do you really think that self serving prayer will result in Him changing His mind? I look forward to a good explanation on this, as I have never gotten it.

"When I grow up I want to marry a rich man and live in a condor next to the beach" -- My 7yr old daughter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 11:47am
Right, what about what existed BEFORE the big bang? 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 11:39am
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Can't we just say God caused the Big Bang and get it over with?


Well, that would be convenient.

But I don't think it completely explains events from "the beginning of time" either theologically or scientifically.  I think that's kinda the point...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 11:37am
Can't we just say God caused the Big Bang and get it over with?
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 11:36am
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:


  I also don't see the concept
of God and evolution as exclusive of each other- why
could some God not set the cosmic experiment in motion,
sit back for a couple billion years, crack a couple of
cold ones and see what happens?


This is sort of the camp I'm sitting in. For me to deny scientific evidence of evolution, natural selection, etc. would be absolutely moronic. There's far too much evidence for it all to be coincidence.

However, why should that stop me from believing that there is a higher power out there somewhere who kicked off the entire process? Evolution on this planet is one thing. The overall creation of the entire universe is a little more theoretical in nature.


Frankly, that's my view too.  I find it a little difficult to believe that we know everything there is about the creation of the universe already, and I really don't have any problems seeing the Biblical account of creation meeting up with the scientific account of evolution.

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I always had an issue with this. If God is all knowing, allseeing, omnipotent and has complete control and a master plan....what good is praying going to do anyways? Going by common Christian beleifs, God has a plan and it is not ours to question. Isn't praying for Him to change His mind questioning Him? Unless you are praying for understanding, than you are wasting your time.



Well sure...if you look at it from the normal viewpoint of the world.  But that argument isn't actually based in theology.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 11:21am
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Say your sick. I mean REALLY sick. Doctors tell you, that you are about to die. No hope.

 

Do you pray to God for a miracle?

I always had an issue with this. If God is all knowing, allseeing, omnipotent and has complete control and a master plan....what good is praying going to do anyways? Going by common Christian beleifs, God has a plan and it is not ours to question. Isn't praying for Him to change His mind questioning Him? Unless you are praying for understanding, than you are wasting your time.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 11:08am
Bruce-

Bite your tongue. I'm working constant twelve hour days at the main entry checkpoint to the airfield these days and for the next month. My
job is slowly, steadily sucking my soul. Literally the highlight of my time working gate so far was when I 'got' to have a break in the routine by
working on a security contractor who got shot in the neck and was dropped off for us to deal with.

In the spectrum of crappiness, I think it goes my job > getting teeth pulled > debating evolution on the internet. Compared to dealing with some of
the locals, the crowd here in T&O is like a fount of academic maturity.

I need a nice simply online argument to keep my sanity right now..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 11:08am
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

What simply happens is that the weakest members
of a species in any given generation will tend towards
less reproductive success.


So . . . what are the ramifications of this statement as applied to Stealth?

On a serious note; I have tried so hard to ignore FE's posts but now I find I can no longer do so.  With that in mind, I am forced to respond to some of the more annoying parts of his last post.

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

Tom Phillips said it best. . . .

". . . . By definition, science is based upon what we observe in the physical world and logical inference from what we observe"

Using that logic, based on what I can physically observe and infer, the world is flat.

. . . Such "spontaneous generation," disproved long ago, has never been observed. . . .

This is an amazing example of "head in the sand" logic.  (I.e. if I didn't see it, it can't be true.)  Using this logic, I can avoid any possible negative outcomes in the future by merely closing my eyes and putting my hands over my ears.  Why didn't I think of this before.

Instead, we always observe that life comes from previous life - and, as Scripture teaches, ultimately from an ever-living God.

Given the previous logic, it seems contradictory to accept the word of a book that was written/rewritten/edited centuries ago which asserts the existence of a supreme being and states that such existence must be accepted on faith as opposed to observation.

Evolution also asserts one life form can change into another, higher form - something also never observed and thus unscientific. Instead, we always observe exactly what Genesis states numerous times: Life reproduces "according to its kind," i.e., cats beget cats, crickets beget crickets, etc. They never change into something else. With microbiology, we understand why.

Wrong. Certain dinosaurs evolved into birds.  Here's a link to your favorite source that explains it.  The first paragraph covers how this is now a generally accepted conclusion and provides an overview of why this is so. The section labeled "Molecular evidence and soft tissue" should be especially interesting given the mention of microbiology in the original post.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 11:06am
Bruce, thanks to my work filter I can't see the picture you posted.

But in terms of widespread belief lending credence to a theory, I'm going to say 'not necessarily.' But also point out that, like religion, it is difficult to prove that such things AREN'T legitimate.

You say that not being able to prove they DON'T exist is ample enough for you, but my not being able to prove they DO, is enough for you to shake your head and deem my theories out in left field.

(this being said, I am not exactly a believer in all superstitious and off the wall mumb-jumbo just because it's wide spread, I'm only trying to make a point)

A new point of view- what if the widespread and long standing belief in a higher power, despite the overwhelming opposition, IS the proof that you're looking for? God, as a tangible being is about as believable (even to me) as the tooth fairy.

Some might claim that mass religious belief is nothing more than widespread stupidity. What if they're so far off base they're not even in the same ball park?

You lack the tangible evidence that God exists, therefore it is enough for you to say that "If I can't see him, he ain't there"

Couldn't it be enough that the belief in a higher power that has lasted through industrial revolutions, scientific breakthroughs and mass ideological sparring can count as evidence?

Perhaps I'm reaching, but it was a line of thought that entered my head as I was typing.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 11:00am
Originally posted by adrenalinejunky adrenalinejunky wrote:

Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

And FE, you know you are in trouble when junky is pointing out flaws in your anti-evolution rhetoric.



haha... sadly enough its something i've done alot.....

i take issue with flawed arguements - whether they try to support or attack my position.

I share your pain.

In any event, there is a variety of learning of observed speciation.  The problem is that critics of evolutionary theory often have a rather specific concept of what "speciation" means, which leads them to be disappointed by the evidence.

Nevertheless, good article here.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 10:54am
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:


  I also don't see the concept
of God and evolution as exclusive of each other- why
could some God not set the cosmic experiment in motion,
sit back for a couple billion years, crack a couple of
cold ones and see what happens?


This is sort of the camp I'm sitting in. For me to deny scientific evidence of evolution, natural selection, etc. would be absolutely moronic. There's far too much evidence for it all to be coincidence.

However, why should that stop me from believing that there is a higher power out there somewhere who kicked off the entire process? Evolution on this planet is one thing. The overall creation of the entire universe is a little more theoretical in nature.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrenalinejunky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 November 2008 at 10:53am
Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

And FE, you know you are in trouble when junky is pointing out flaws in your anti-evolution rhetoric.



haha... sadly enough its something i've done alot.....

i take issue with flawed arguements - whether they try to support or attack my position.
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