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mccain or obama?

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Bruce Banner View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2008 at 1:11pm

I am not going to pretend that Obama is a major pro-gun advocate - clearly he is not.

But that does not mean that we have to swallow up all the factual and legal mischaracterizations hoisted upon us by the NRAILA.

The FactCheck link points out several of these intentional mischaracterizations, but they missed one.

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise/NRAILA FreeEnterprise/NRAILA wrote:

...allow civil liability for death or injuries caused by handguns...

FACT: Barack Obama voted to allow reckless lawsuits designed to bankrupt the firearms industry

Again, massive mischaracterization.

The bill in question can be found here.  There is nothing about "allowing reckless lawsuits designed to bankrupt the firearms industry," or specifically allowing anything at all.

Instead, the bill (which Obama and many others opposed), would create a special exemption from existing law, just to protect gun manufacturers.  Just about every other company in the country can be sued for their products; this bill aims to give gun manufacturers a special pass.

Obama's vote was simply a vote to apply the same laws to the gun companies as to everybody else.

The NRAILA's interpretation is willfully misleading.  Apparently effective enough that FactCheck fell for it, which is saddening, but misleading nonetheless.



Edited by Bruce Banner - 24 October 2008 at 1:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrenalinejunky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2008 at 1:32pm
i love how you twisted things to make it seem as if your more right then you are...



FACT: Barack Obama opposes four of the five Supreme Court justices who affirmed an individual right to keep and bear arms. He voted against the confirmation of Alito and Roberts and he has stated he would not have appointed Thomas or Scalia.17

as factcheck said - there is absolutely no evidence to suggest this is a gun related issue.


FACT: Barack Obama voted for an Illinois State Senate bill to ban and confiscate “assault weapons,” but the bill was so poorly crafted, it would have also banned most semi-auto and single and double barrel shotguns commonly used by sportsmen.

FACT: Barack Obama voted to allow reckless lawsuits designed to bankrupt the firearms industry

he voted against a bill that would

exempt lawsuits brought against individuals who knowingly transfer a firearm that will be used to commit a violent or drug-trafficking crime
Exempt lawsuits against actions that result in death, physical injury or property damage due solely to a product defect
Call for the dismissal of all qualified civil liability actions pending on the date of enactment by the court in which the action was brought
Prohibit the manufacture, import, sale or delivery of armor piercing ammunition, and sets a minimum prison term of 15 years for violations
Require all licensed importers, manufacturers and dealers who engage in the transfer of handguns to provide secure gun storage or safety devices


i'm pro second amendment, but i would have voted against that one too, thats just retarded.

FACT: Barack Obama voted to ban almost all rifle ammunition commonly used for hunting and sport shooting

NRA Claim: "Ban Rifle Ammunition Commonly Used for Hunting and Sport Shooting"

False: Obama is not proposing to ban hunting ammunition. And he did not, as claimed in an NRA TV spot featuring a Virginia hunter named Karl Rusch, vote to "ban virtually all deer hunting ammunition." What Obama voted for was a measure to ban "armor-piercing" ammunition, which the measure's sponsor has said repeatedly would not cover hunting ammunition.

This claim is based on Obama's vote on S. 397 in the U.S. Senate. Obama was one of 31 senators who voted in favor of S. Amdt. 1615 to S. 397 which sought to "expand the definition of armor piercing ammunition."

The amendment applied only to handgun ammunition "capable of penetrating body armor" and to rifle ammunition that is "designed or marketed as having armor piercing capability," however.

It's true that common high-powered rifle bullets are capable of penetrating the vests worn by police, which are a defense chiefly against lower-velocity handgun rounds. But does that mean hunting ammunition is "designed or marketed as having armor piercing capability"? Or that a rifle round that some handguns might accept would be banned? That's the NRA's argument, and it was repeated on the floor of the Senate by Republican Sen. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky. He said flatly that the measure "would ban nearly all hunting rifle ammunition," without any elaboration. However, the measure's sponsor, Sen. Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts, said his amendment was not intended to cover hunting ammunition:




almost all is a HUGE miscaractarization of that, and thus, the point is false....

FACT: Barack Obama has endorsed a 500% increase in the federal excise tax on firearms and ammunition.9


FACT: Barack Obama has endorsed a complete ban on handgun ownership.

NRA Claim: "Ban the Manufacture, Sale and Possession of Handguns"

False: Obama says he does not support any such handgun ban and never has. He supports "reasonable restrictions on the sale and possession of handguns" (not manufacture) and has said a ban is not "politically practicable."

this one was my personal favorite - trying to make a quote from obama appear as if its saying something its not.

FACT: Barack Obama voted to uphold local gun bans and the criminal prosecution of people who use firearms in self-defense.

As an Illinois State Senator in 2004, Barack Obama voted against legislation that protects citizens, who use firearms in self-defense in their home or business in spite of local gun bans, from prosecution. Here again, the Obama position is counter to that of most Americans.

strictly speaking this one isnt false, but it is very misleading.


FACT: Barack Obama was a member of the Board of Directors of the Joyce Foundation, the leading source of funds for anti-gun organizations and “research.”





i'd say thats a little more then "maybe one"
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mbro View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2008 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:


Hmm. Mbro. This guy doesn't think that the supreme court has liberal members...

I never said there weren't liberal members on the court, I said "Yeah.... I stopped reading your fwd: fwd: fwd: right about there when it implied that the current makeup of SCOTUS is liberal." Which means that the court majority is in fact not liberal. As you point out in your facts quoted below there are 4 staunch conservatives on the court and a more moderate member that mostly votes with the conservatives.
Quote

Obviously out of touch with reality. Here is what wiki has to say.


"While justices do not represent or receive official endorsements from political parties, as is accepted practice in the legislative and executive branches, jurists are informally categorized in legal and political circles as being judicial <A title="Judicial philosophy" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_philosophy#Judic ial_Conservative">conservatives</A>, <A title="Judicial philosophy" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_philosophy#Judic ial_Moderates">moderates</A>, or <A title="Judicial philosophy" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_philosophy#Judic ial_Liberal">liberals</A>. Such leanings, however, refer to legal outlook rather than a political or legislative one.


Seven of the current justices of the court were appointed by Republican presidents, while two were appointed by a Democratic president. It is popularly accepted that Chief Justice Roberts and Justices Scalia, Thomas, and Alito compose the Court's <A title="Judicial philosophy" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_philosophy#Judic ial_Conservative">conservative</A> wing. Justices Stevens, Souter, Ginsburg and Breyer are generally thought of as the Court's <A title="Judicial philosophy" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_philosophy#Judic ial_Liberal">liberal</A> wing.<SUP =reference id=cite_ref-12><A title="" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_the_Unit ed_States#cite_note-12">[13]</A></SUP> <A title="Anthony Kennedy" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Kennedy">Justi ce Kennedy</A>, generally<SUP ="noprint Template-Fact"><SPAN title="This claim needs references to reliable sources since October 2008" style="WHITE-SPACE: nowrap">[<A title="Wikipedia:Citation needed" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed ">citation needed</A>]</SPAN></SUP> thought of as a <A title="Judicial philosophy" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_philosophy#Judic ial_Conservatives">conservative</A> who "occasionally vote[s] with the liberals", is considered most likely to be the <A title="Swing vote" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_vote">swing vote</A> that determines the outcome of certain close cases.<SUP =reference id=cite_ref-13><A title="" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_the_Unit ed_States#cite_note-13">[14]</A>"</SUP>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_the_United_Sta tes


As usual, don't let the facts get in the way of your position, Mbro.

I didn't let facts get in the way of my position. You let your critical reading skills get in the way of yours.

An Obama presidency would probably not change the makeup of the supreme court that much. The most likely next retirees are Gingsberg and Stevens. Both of them are on the liberal wing of the court. The next likely member of the court to retire is Scalia but unless he gets severely ill during an Obama administration he'll probably stay just on principal.


Edited by mbro - 24 October 2008 at 1:45pm

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2008 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

I am not going to pretend that Obama is a major pro-gun advocate - clearly he is not.

But that does not mean that we have to swallow up all the factual and legal mischaracterizations hoisted upon us by the NRAILA.

Sadly, I didn't post ALL of their info, just the stuff I felt was true...

The FactCheck link points out several of these intentional mischaracterizations, but they missed one.

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise/NRAILA FreeEnterprise/NRAILA wrote:

...allow civil liability for death or injuries caused by handguns...

FACT: Barack Obama voted to allow reckless lawsuits designed to bankrupt the firearms industry

Again, massive mischaracterization.

The bill in question can be found here.  There is nothing about "allowing reckless lawsuits designed to bankrupt the firearms industry," or specifically allowing anything at all.

Guess you didn't read it, huh...

This is getting old. I realize you like to make broad sweeping generalizations with wrong data, but come on.

      Look under section 5
        (3) LIABILITY; EVIDENCE-

          (A) LIABILITY- Nothing in this section shall be construed to--

            (i) create a cause of action against any Federal firearms licensee or any other person for any civil liability; or

    Pretty clear, why a liberal lawyer like Obama voted against it...

    Instead, the bill (which Obama and many (20) others opposed), would create a special exemption from existing law, just to protect gun manufacturers.  Just about every other company in the country can be sued for their products; this bill aims to give gun manufacturers a special pass.

    Obama's vote was simply a vote to apply the same laws to the gun companies as to everybody else.

    The NRAILA's interpretation is willfully misleading.  Apparently effective enough that FactCheck fell for it, which is saddening, but misleading nonetheless.

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    Bruce Banner View Drop Down
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2008 at 2:15pm
    Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

    Sadly, I didn't post ALL of their info, just the stuff I felt was true...

    Which should tell you something.  The ILA site is an impressive collection of drivel, and everything there should be read with extreme skepticism.

    Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

    Originally posted by BB BB wrote:

    The bill in question can be found here.  There is nothing about "allowing reckless lawsuits designed to bankrupt the firearms industry," or specifically allowing anything at all.

    Guess you didn't read it, huh...

    This is getting old. I realize you like to make broad sweeping generalizations with wrong data, but come on.

        Look under section 5
          (3) LIABILITY; EVIDENCE-

            (A) LIABILITY- Nothing in this section shall be construed to--

              (i) create a cause of action against any Federal firearms licensee or any other person for any civil liability; or

      Pretty clear, why a liberal lawyer like Obama voted against it...

      This is getting frustrating.  Do you even understand what you are posting?  The text you quote doesn't say what you think it does - not even close.

      The section you highlight simply clarifies what the bill does NOT do.  That is not the operative provision.

      These immunity bills have been floating around for many years, in several states and at the federal level.  They are not new or unique to Illinois.  Anybody who follows the issue understands how they work.  This does apparently not include you.

      You basically quote a completely random part of the bill, and then claim that this irrelevant quote somehow supports your point - but frankly, I'm not even sure what your point is anymore.

      You have officially been reduced to quoting/linking random text and loudly declaring 'SEE! OBAMA BAD!"

      This is the highest concentration of incoherence I have seen on this board in a long time.

      You should take note that some of the most conservative members of this forum, who probably agree with you in substance on many points, are pointing out how ridiculous you are being.

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      mbro View Drop Down
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      Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2008 at 2:17pm
      Could you just post your profession in order to stop him from trying to post random quotes from bills anymore?

      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
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      Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaiNTbALLfReNzY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2008 at 2:38pm
      Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:

      Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:


      Originally posted by PaiNTbALLfReNzY PaiNTbALLfReNzY wrote:

      Let's say Obama does have a Super Secret Squirrel plan to adjust the second amendment. Will it get approved? Seriously, think about it. Probably not. 


      More than "probably not" - Given the recent SCOTUS ruling, it would take an outright consitutional amendment to prohibit conceal carry nationally.  A quick review of the process for amending the constitution would tell you how impossible it would be to get such an amendment enacted.



      Such a narrow view... Look, changes can be made that affect our gun rights that don't trample on the latest ruling. To pretend that Obama is for gun rights is rediculous.




      Please educate me on how Bruce and/or myself mentioned Obama was pro-gun rights. Also, I'd like to know how our views are narrow minded. We are rationalized an anti-gun right policy that you opposed in the first place and determined it wouldn't be approved anyway, despite Obama's efforts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's being pretty open-minded compared to some people I know. Hint Hint.
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      Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrenalinejunky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2008 at 2:40pm
      Originally posted by mbro mbro wrote:

      Could you just post your profession in order to stop him from trying to post random quotes from bills anymore?


      so he can ask for a picture of his paystub?
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      Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FreeEnterprise Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2008 at 3:26pm

      Originally posted by adrenalinejunky adrenalinejunky wrote:

      Originally posted by mbro mbro wrote:

      Could you just post your profession in order to stop him from trying to post random quotes from bills anymore?


      so he can ask for a picture of his paystub?

      What difference does it make? He claimed $250,000 a year or more... It doesn't change all the facts I posted.

      I'd guess he is a lawyer, by his wordy posts, that talk in circles. (hence the reason I made the crack about the definition of the word "is" way back in the thread).

      With the amount of time he spends on here. I'd be VERRRY surprised if he was a high income one...

      http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_money_does_a_lawyer_earn

       

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      Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrenalinejunky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2008 at 3:29pm
      bruce talks in circles?

      seems pretty straightforeward to me...

      and if you think his posts are wordy, you should have seen some of the debates i had on here a while back....
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      Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2008 at 4:17pm
      Bruce is some nobody.

      So much of a nobody that I am [hopefully] counting is word of recommendation as a swaying factor in getting an internship at a newspaper in his city of business.


      What a chump.
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      Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrenalinejunky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2008 at 4:45pm
      slightly off topic, this thread reminded me of something....



      "In order to preserve our view of the world around us, we need to filter out those things that do not fit into our reality" -Michael Meegan

      All too often we paint our picture of reality in our minds and try to make our vision of the world support that, we justify great logical leaps based on a faith of something we have no evidence of - our preconception that things are a certain way becomes the filter through which we define existence, our reality becomes the product of our own understanding - where our understanding is the product of our preconcieved picture, in this way we shape the world around us in our minds until it fits our picture, and as a result of this belief and the actions that they produce, in some small way, the world is changed from its reality to the one we want it to be. but when more people's pictures conflict with ours then confirm it, the majority moves reality farther from where we want it, and either our picture must change, or we must blind ourselves more and more to things around us. you've probably heard it said, that thought is the highest form of reality, but truly, the thought of the world in mass shapes the image of reality for our generation. but the absolute truths of this world still stand no matter how far the image of reality moves from them, in this way the basis for reality becomes ignorace, for it is in our ignorance that we have blinded ourself from what truth really is.
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      Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CarbineKid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2008 at 10:37pm
      Anyone who believes Obama is a supporter of gun rights is an idiot. Thats about all Im going to say on that, as its pretty clear(and debated in the past), and not worth of 15 more pages of nonsense.
      So I am curious as to what many of you on here feel of the so called Fairness Doctrine. Is this a freedom of speech issue?       
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      Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2008 at 10:52pm
      Originally posted by CarbineKid CarbineKid wrote:

      Anyone who believes Obama is a supporter of gun rights is an idiot. Thats about all Im going to say on that, as its pretty clear(and debated in the past), and not worth of 15 more pages of nonsense.      
      I don't believe anyone in this thread has argued that point. We've agreed that Obama isn't pro gun what we disagree on is whether he will or could do anything to increase federal regulation like was done in the early 90's.

      I am a strong supporter of gun rights and I do not fear an Obama administration in that issue even though he may not be a big gun rights supporter.

      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
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      Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 October 2008 at 12:29am
      Originally posted by FreeEnterprise FreeEnterprise wrote:


      Such a narrow view... Look, changes can be made that affect our gun rights that don't trample on the latest ruling. To pretend that Obama is for gun rights is rediculous.



      If anything is "rediculous" around here, it's your writing style.

      It's ridiculous.

      Originally posted by CarbineKid CarbineKid wrote:

      Anyone who believes Obama is a supporter of gun rights is an idiot. Thats about all Im going to say on that, as its pretty clear(and debated in the past), and not worth of 15 more pages of nonsense.


      Well, actually, that's relative.  But relative as applied to the US, then yes.  Relative as applied to where I stand on the issue, then no.

      Quote
      So I am curious as to what many of you on here feel of the so called Fairness Doctrine. Is this a freedom of speech issue?       


      I think people should be able to--actually, scratch that: required to think for themselves.  If you can't realize that your media is biased, you have bigger problems than not fully understanding whatever issue is on the table.
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      Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyHopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 October 2008 at 1:04am
      Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

      Bruce is some nobody.


      He talks like someone with at least two GED's...and maybe a cosmetology certificate :)

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      Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ThatGuitarGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 October 2008 at 4:14pm
      Can we just skip McCain and vote for Palin?
      Skillet:     I've never been terribly fond of the look of a vagina
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      Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParielIsBack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 October 2008 at 10:59pm
      Originally posted by ThatGuitarGuy ThatGuitarGuy wrote:

      Can we just skip McCain and vote for Palin?


      That website was more fun than 5 minutes of monkeys in a barrel.
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      Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Predatorr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 October 2008 at 11:13pm
      Obama's going to be speaking at my school on Tuesday.
      For those of you who don't know, I go to James Madison University.
      It's a shame I'm a McCain supporter.
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      Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hysteria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 October 2008 at 6:24am
      Originally posted by ThatGuitarGuy ThatGuitarGuy wrote:

      Can we just skip McCain and vote for Palin?


      OMG wow.  Amazing.
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