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mccain or obama? |
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Bruce Banner 
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Joined: 28 August 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1128 |
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 Posted: 24 October 2008 at 1:11pm |
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I am not going to pretend that Obama is a major pro-gun advocate - clearly he is not. But that does not mean that we have to swallow up all the factual and legal mischaracterizations hoisted upon us by the NRAILA. The FactCheck link points out several of these intentional mischaracterizations, but they missed one.
FACT: Barack Obama voted to allow reckless lawsuits designed to bankrupt the firearms industry Again, massive mischaracterization. The bill in question can be found here. There is nothing about "allowing reckless lawsuits designed to bankrupt the firearms industry," or specifically allowing anything at all. Instead, the bill (which Obama and many others opposed), would create a special exemption from existing law, just to protect gun manufacturers. Just about every other company in the country can be sued for their products; this bill aims to give gun manufacturers a special pass. Obama's vote was simply a vote to apply the same laws to the gun companies as to everybody else. The NRAILA's interpretation is willfully misleading. Apparently effective enough that FactCheck fell for it, which is saddening, but misleading nonetheless. Edited by Bruce Banner - 24 October 2008 at 1:46pm |
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adrenalinejunky
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strike 1 11/24/08 language Joined: 10 June 2002 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4771 |
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Posted: 24 October 2008 at 1:32pm |
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i love how you twisted things to make it seem as if your more right then you are...
FACT: Barack Obama opposes four of the five Supreme Court justices who affirmed an individual right to keep and bear arms. He voted against the confirmation of Alito and Roberts and he has stated he would not have appointed Thomas or Scalia.17 as factcheck said - there is absolutely no evidence to suggest this is a gun related issue. FACT: Barack Obama voted for an Illinois State Senate bill to ban and confiscate “assault weapons,” but the bill was so poorly crafted, it would have also banned most semi-auto and single and double barrel shotguns commonly used by sportsmen. FACT: Barack Obama voted to allow reckless lawsuits designed to bankrupt the firearms industry he voted against a bill that would exempt lawsuits brought against individuals who knowingly transfer a firearm that will be used to commit a violent or drug-trafficking crime Exempt lawsuits against actions that result in death, physical injury or property damage due solely to a product defect Call for the dismissal of all qualified civil liability actions pending on the date of enactment by the court in which the action was brought Prohibit the manufacture, import, sale or delivery of armor piercing ammunition, and sets a minimum prison term of 15 years for violations Require all licensed importers, manufacturers and dealers who engage in the transfer of handguns to provide secure gun storage or safety devices i'm pro second amendment, but i would have voted against that one too, thats just retarded. FACT: Barack Obama voted to ban almost all rifle ammunition commonly used for hunting and sport shooting NRA Claim: "Ban Rifle Ammunition Commonly Used for Hunting and Sport Shooting" False: Obama is not proposing to ban hunting ammunition. And he did not, as claimed in an NRA TV spot featuring a Virginia hunter named Karl Rusch, vote to "ban virtually all deer hunting ammunition." What Obama voted for was a measure to ban "armor-piercing" ammunition, which the measure's sponsor has said repeatedly would not cover hunting ammunition. This claim is based on Obama's vote on S. 397 in the U.S. Senate. Obama was one of 31 senators who voted in favor of S. Amdt. 1615 to S. 397 which sought to "expand the definition of armor piercing ammunition." The amendment applied only to handgun ammunition "capable of penetrating body armor" and to rifle ammunition that is "designed or marketed as having armor piercing capability," however. It's true that common high-powered rifle bullets are capable of penetrating the vests worn by police, which are a defense chiefly against lower-velocity handgun rounds. But does that mean hunting ammunition is "designed or marketed as having armor piercing capability"? Or that a rifle round that some handguns might accept would be banned? That's the NRA's argument, and it was repeated on the floor of the Senate by Republican Sen. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky. He said flatly that the measure "would ban nearly all hunting rifle ammunition," without any elaboration. However, the measure's sponsor, Sen. Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts, said his amendment was not intended to cover hunting ammunition: almost all is a HUGE miscaractarization of that, and thus, the point is false.... FACT: Barack Obama has endorsed a 500% increase in the federal excise tax on firearms and ammunition.9 FACT: Barack Obama has endorsed a complete ban on handgun ownership. NRA Claim: "Ban the Manufacture, Sale and Possession of Handguns" False: Obama says he does not support any such handgun ban and never has. He supports "reasonable restrictions on the sale and possession of handguns" (not manufacture) and has said a ban is not "politically practicable." this one was my personal favorite - trying to make a quote from obama appear as if its saying something its not. FACT: Barack Obama voted to uphold local gun bans and the criminal prosecution of people who use firearms in self-defense. As an Illinois State Senator in 2004, Barack Obama voted against legislation that protects citizens, who use firearms in self-defense in their home or business in spite of local gun bans, from prosecution. Here again, the Obama position is counter to that of most Americans. strictly speaking this one isnt false, but it is very misleading. FACT: Barack Obama was a member of the Board of Directors of the Joyce Foundation, the leading source of funds for anti-gun organizations and “research.” i'd say thats a little more then "maybe one" |
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mbro
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Original Forum Gangster Joined: 11 June 2002 Location: Isle Of Man Status: Offline Points: 10728 |
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Posted: 24 October 2008 at 1:42pm |
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An Obama presidency would probably not change the makeup of the supreme court that much. The most likely next retirees are Gingsberg and Stevens. Both of them are on the liberal wing of the court. The next likely member of the court to retire is Scalia but unless he gets severely ill during an Obama administration he'll probably stay just on principal. Edited by mbro - 24 October 2008 at 1:45pm |
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Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos. |
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FreeEnterprise
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Not a card-carrying member of the DNC Joined: 14 October 2008 Location: Trails Of Doom Status: Offline Points: 4711 |
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Posted: 24 October 2008 at 2:06pm |
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Bruce Banner
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Joined: 28 August 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1128 |
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Posted: 24 October 2008 at 2:15pm |
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Which should tell you something. The ILA site is an impressive collection of drivel, and everything there should be read with extreme skepticism.
Guess you didn't read it, huh... This is getting old. I realize you like to make broad sweeping generalizations with wrong data, but come on.
Pretty clear, why a liberal lawyer like Obama voted against it... This is getting frustrating. Do you even understand what you are posting? The text you quote doesn't say what you think it does - not even close. The section you highlight simply clarifies what the bill does NOT do. That is not the operative provision. These immunity bills have been floating around for many years, in several states and at the federal level. They are not new or unique to Illinois. Anybody who follows the issue understands how they work. This does apparently not include you. You basically quote a completely random part of the bill, and then claim that this irrelevant quote somehow supports your point - but frankly, I'm not even sure what your point is anymore. You have officially been reduced to quoting/linking random text and loudly declaring 'SEE! OBAMA BAD!" This is the highest concentration of incoherence I have seen on this board in a long time. You should take note that some of the most conservative members of this forum, who probably agree with you in substance on many points, are pointing out how ridiculous you are being. |
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mbro
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Posted: 24 October 2008 at 2:17pm |
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Could you just post your profession in order to stop him from trying to post random quotes from bills anymore?
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Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos. |
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PaiNTbALLfReNzY
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Posted: 24 October 2008 at 2:38pm |
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Please educate me on how Bruce and/or myself mentioned Obama was pro-gun rights. Also, I'd like to know how our views are narrow minded. We are rationalized an anti-gun right policy that you opposed in the first place and determined it wouldn't be approved anyway, despite Obama's efforts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's being pretty open-minded compared to some people I know. Hint Hint. |
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adrenalinejunky
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Posted: 24 October 2008 at 2:40pm |
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so he can ask for a picture of his paystub? |
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FreeEnterprise
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Posted: 24 October 2008 at 3:26pm |
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What difference does it make? He claimed $250,000 a year or more... It doesn't change all the facts I posted. I'd guess he is a lawyer, by his wordy posts, that talk in circles. (hence the reason I made the crack about the definition of the word "is" way back in the thread). With the amount of time he spends on here. I'd be VERRRY surprised if he was a high income one... http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_money_does_a_lawyer_earn
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adrenalinejunky
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Posted: 24 October 2008 at 3:29pm |
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bruce talks in circles?
seems pretty straightforeward to me... and if you think his posts are wordy, you should have seen some of the debates i had on here a while back.... |
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agentwhale007
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Posted: 24 October 2008 at 4:17pm |
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Bruce is some nobody.
So much of a nobody that I am [hopefully] counting is word of recommendation as a swaying factor in getting an internship at a newspaper in his city of business. What a chump. |
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adrenalinejunky
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Posted: 24 October 2008 at 4:45pm |
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slightly off topic, this thread reminded me of something....
"In order to preserve our view of the world around us, we need to filter out those things that do not fit into our reality" -Michael Meegan All too often we paint our picture of reality in our minds and try to make our vision of the world support that, we justify great logical leaps based on a faith of something we have no evidence of - our preconception that things are a certain way becomes the filter through which we define existence, our reality becomes the product of our own understanding - where our understanding is the product of our preconcieved picture, in this way we shape the world around us in our minds until it fits our picture, and as a result of this belief and the actions that they produce, in some small way, the world is changed from its reality to the one we want it to be. but when more people's pictures conflict with ours then confirm it, the majority moves reality farther from where we want it, and either our picture must change, or we must blind ourselves more and more to things around us. you've probably heard it said, that thought is the highest form of reality, but truly, the thought of the world in mass shapes the image of reality for our generation. but the absolute truths of this world still stand no matter how far the image of reality moves from them, in this way the basis for reality becomes ignorace, for it is in our ignorance that we have blinded ourself from what truth really is. |
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CarbineKid
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Posted: 24 October 2008 at 10:37pm |
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Anyone who believes Obama is a supporter of gun rights is an idiot. Thats about all Im going to say on that, as its pretty clear(and debated in the past), and not worth of 15 more pages of nonsense.
So I am curious as to what many of you on here feel of the so called Fairness Doctrine. Is this a freedom of speech issue? |
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mbro
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Posted: 24 October 2008 at 10:52pm |
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I am a strong supporter of gun rights and I do not fear an Obama administration in that issue even though he may not be a big gun rights supporter. |
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Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos. |
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ParielIsBack
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future target of fratricide Joined: 13 October 2008 Status: Offline Points: 3782 |
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Posted: 25 October 2008 at 12:29am |
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If anything is "rediculous" around here, it's your writing style. It's ridiculous.
Well, actually, that's relative. But relative as applied to the US, then yes. Relative as applied to where I stand on the issue, then no.
I think people should be able to--actually, scratch that: required to think for themselves. If you can't realize that your media is biased, you have bigger problems than not fully understanding whatever issue is on the table. |
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BU Engineering 2012
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JohnnyHopper
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Posted: 25 October 2008 at 1:04am |
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He talks like someone with at least two GED's...and maybe a cosmetology certificate :) |
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My shoes of peace have steel toes.
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ThatGuitarGuy
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Square Slot Joined: 07 April 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1357 |
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Posted: 25 October 2008 at 4:14pm |
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Can we just skip McCain and vote for Palin?
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Skillet: I've never been terribly fond of the look of a vagina
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ParielIsBack
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Posted: 25 October 2008 at 10:59pm |
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That website was more fun than 5 minutes of monkeys in a barrel. |
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BU Engineering 2012
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Predatorr
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Posted: 25 October 2008 at 11:13pm |
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Obama's going to be speaking at my school on Tuesday.
For those of you who don't know, I go to James Madison University. It's a shame I'm a McCain supporter. |
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Hysteria
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Posted: 26 October 2008 at 6:24am |
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FreeEnterprise/NRAILA wrote:|
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