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Bruce Banner View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2008 at 12:23am

Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

...providing contraceptives to middle schoolers seems to be encouraging deviant behavior in the young 'uns. I don't really see supporting that as a good idea.

Deviant?

According to my numbers, 33% of American 9th graders have had intercourse.  That makes it pretty non-deviant.  It also means that holding back the condoms until they hit high school seems contrary to reality, whether or not we think middle-schoolers are "developed."  At least 33% of them appear to be plenty developed.

The numbers drop rather precipitously as the kids get younger, so it would appear that 7th-8th-9th grade is exactly the RIGHT time to be having this conversation, and anything later than that is too late.

Some relevant data here:  http://www.kff.org/youthhivstds/upload/U-S-Teen-Sexual-Activ ity-Fact-Sheet.pdf

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2008 at 2:57am
Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

...providing contraceptives to middle schoolers seems to be encouraging deviant behavior in the young 'uns. I don't really see supporting that as a good idea.

Deviant?

According to my numbers, 33% of American 9th graders have had intercourse.  That makes it pretty non-deviant.  It also means that holding back the condoms until they hit high school seems contrary to reality, whether or not we think middle-schoolers are "developed."  At least 33% of them appear to be plenty developed.

The numbers drop rather precipitously as the kids get younger, so it would appear that 7th-8th-9th grade is exactly the RIGHT time to be having this conversation, and anything later than that is too late.

Some relevant data here:  http://www.kff.org/youthhivstds/upload/U-S-Teen-Sexual-Activ ity-Fact-Sheet.pdf

 



I actually agree with clark? Weird.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2008 at 6:43am
Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

...providing contraceptives to middle schoolers seems to be encouraging deviant behavior in the young 'uns. I don't really see supporting that as a good idea.

Deviant?

According to my numbers, 33% of American 9th graders have had intercourse.  That makes it pretty non-deviant.  It also means that holding back the condoms until they hit high school seems contrary to reality, whether or not we think middle-schoolers are "developed."  At least 33% of them appear to be plenty developed.

The numbers drop rather precipitously as the kids get younger, so it would appear that 7th-8th-9th grade is exactly the RIGHT time to be having this conversation, and anything later than that is too late.

Some relevant data here:  http://www.kff.org/youthhivstds/upload/U-S-Teen-Sexual-Activ ity-Fact-Sheet.pdf

 



Perhaps 'deviant' was the wrong word, though I still believe that handing out contraceptives to the kids of that age group is the equivalent of saying "Its cool to do it, as long as you use these" when the message we should be trying to get across is "Don't do it" (Now) We seem to be focusing on sending the wrong message.

I think if I ever had a middle school aged kid and they came home with contraceptives, I'd be a little pissed, because it looks like the school is taking the cheap and easy way out of handling a situation. As a parent, I'm primarily responsible for teaching my kids correctly about being abstinent at 15 freakin years old, but how can I contend with the school if they're throwing their hands in the air saying "Mount up, as long as you're bagged up!" Which is pretty much what you want to hear at that age.

I seriously oppose contraceptives being handed out in school. Their primary function is education, not the condoning of potentially dangerous behavior. Its just not fair to anyone. Not even in terms of morality- Morality has taken a back seat to "whats cool" "What's easy" or "Whats profitable" so making the 'moral' argument would be moot. But in terms of common sense, it's just pretty damn stupid, and still pretty dangerous.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrenalinejunky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2008 at 9:00am
i'm with reb on this one, i knew people that already had sex when i was in middle school, (almost 22 now) but just because its happening doesnt mean we should be communicating to kids that its a good idea.

besides, they already have most of thier lives to be pissed off by the opposite sex, why try to make it happen earlier :)
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Girl in my dorm lost her virginity in the 5th grade.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2008 at 10:09am

I don't think anybody (fringe-groups aside) likes the idea of middle-schoolers having sex, and everybody agrees that it should be a primary goal of a policy to minimize middle-school sexual activity.

And handing out condoms certainly does appear to give mixed messages.  Abolutely.

But - two thoughts:

1.  Preventing/minimizing middle-school sex is not the only goal.  There are other things to consider when designing a sex ed policy, such as pregnancy, STD, relationship issues, mental health, etc.  A policy with a sole goal of minimizing sex is not a good policy - ALL of these issues must be addressed.  And if handing out condoms results in reduced pregnancy and STD rates and other benefits, but at the cost of increased sexual activity, then it may be the right thing to do anyway.  Sex is complicated - we cannot get hung up on a single aspect.

2.  Whether to make contraceptives available is not a binary solution.  Like everything else, it should be part of a larger plan.  We aren't talking about encouraging kids to have sex.  Making condoms available in conjunction with comprehensive sexual education is different than just having a bucket o' rubbers in the hallway with no information.  The main problem with sex ed in this country (IMO) is that it is random, ad hoc, unplanned, inconsistent, and incomplete.  Handing out condoms is neither a panacea nor a curse, but should be considered as part of, and consistent with, the master plan.

Bottom line is that the US has one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the indistrialized world.  Our teens also start having sex earlier than most countries, and do so irresponsibly.  Maybe we should look at what those other countries are doing, and consider implementing similar programs here.



Edited by Bruce Banner - 03 September 2008 at 10:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2008 at 10:14am

To throw another gun analogy out there - many gun parents teach their children firearm usage and safety at a fairly early age, while at the same time telling them to never, ever use the guns unsupervised.  But if you do, make sure to observe proper procedures.

There may be mixed messages there, but we all acknowledge the value of the two-part instruction.  I don't want to create a strained analogy competition here, but the bottom line is that we routinely tell our kids "don't to X, but if you do it anyway, do it like this."  That's part of how the world works, and we usually manage to digest that compromise.  For whatever reason, sex ed is different in the minds of many.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benjichang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2008 at 10:23am
I think that crappy sex education has a lot to do with it. Thinking back on it, I was never in a class that really talked about viable birth control methods until I took personal health problems as an elective in college. It always seemed that the attitude was that sex is for procreation only, and you shouldn't try it until you're married. Maybe Catholic school is to blame for that, and public school sex education is better. I wouldn't know.

Another thing that creates problems, I think, is the attitude toward sexuality that is present today. I think that if parents were more open to their children from an earlier age about sexuality and responsible practices, we'd be a lot better off. That's why I'm guessing Europe has lower teen pregnancy rates. Of course, there are many factors that influence this, but I think it's a societal thing. Europeans just seem more open and relaxed about a lot of things compared to here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2008 at 10:30am

I agree with benji on all counts.

It is absolutely shocking to me that kids can make it through 7th-8th grade and still not have complete understanding of the mechanics and biological issues of sexuality.  That's just fundamental.

But beyond that - I had the somewhat unusual experience of experiencing two radically different types of sex ed.  One was strictly mechanical.  Tab A in Slot B, use a condom.  The other was more of a discussion forum, where the main issue was the relationship between people, and how sexuality plays into the that.  The principal message was mutual respect.  Much time was spent discussing how sex is not just a physical thing, and how it is important for all parties to take is seriously because it is so easy to get hurt, and so forth.

Drastically different approaches.  I personally believe that the second approach not only leads to a healthier attitude towards sex among teenagers, but also leads to a healthier attitude towards relationships for adults as well.  If we think of sex ed just as something for the teen years rather than something for life, I believe we are selling ourselves short.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2008 at 11:49am
Originally posted by Skillet42565 Skillet42565 wrote:

Girl in my dorm lost her virginity in the 5th grade.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.


That's disgusting.
Que pasa?


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You wouldn't need sex ed if you could still horse whip both parties. I have a real simple plan for preventing teen pregency, its called buh-bye. You screw up, you're gone. You proved you're an adult and now will leave. Don't call, don't write and don't even for a minute think I'm raising my grandkids. I also will not be paying for a car, car insurance or college or sending money for whatever. They can make it right by marrying the other dolt but that doesn't mean I don't get to throw him down the stairs first or forget her name and simply revert to calling both of them "hey you" and "whats-her-slut". If you know the penalty for being stupid and you still mess-up, then you're willing to face the penalty. Just like prison, I play nice because I don't want teh butsecs.

Edited by JohnnyHopper - 03 September 2008 at 12:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skillet42565 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2008 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:

Originally posted by Skillet42565 Skillet42565 wrote:

Girl in my dorm lost her virginity in the 5th grade.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.


That's disgusting.


I'm aware.  But I'd still hit it so hard if you managed to pull me out they'd crown you king of England.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2008 at 1:10pm

Originally posted by JohnnyHopper JohnnyHopper wrote:

You wouldn't need sex ed if you could still horse whip both parties. I have a real simple plan for preventing teen pregency, its called buh-bye. You screw up, you're gone. You proved you're an adult and now will leave. Don't call, don't write and don't even for a minute think I'm raising my grandkids. I also will not be paying for a car, car insurance or college or sending money for whatever. They can make it right by marrying the other dolt but that doesn't mean I don't get to throw him down the stairs first or forget her name and simply revert to calling both of them "hey you" and "whats-her-slut". If you know the penalty for being stupid and you still mess-up, then you're willing to face the penalty. Just like prison, I play nice because I don't want teh butsecs.

And in some alternate universe that plan might work.

Meanwhile, in the real world, I suggest looking for strategies that will actually accomplish something.

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Originally posted by JohnnyHopper JohnnyHopper wrote:

You wouldn't need sex ed if you could still horse whip both parties. I have a real simple plan for preventing teen pregency, its called buh-bye. You screw up, you're gone. You proved you're an adult and now will leave. Don't call, don't write and don't even for a minute think I'm raising my grandkids. I also will not be paying for a car, car insurance or college or sending money for whatever. They can make it right by marrying the other dolt but that doesn't mean I don't get to throw him down the stairs first or forget her name and simply revert to calling both of them "hey you" and "whats-her-slut". If you know the penalty for being stupid and you still mess-up, then you're willing to face the penalty. Just like prison, I play nice because I don't want teh butsecs.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyHopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2008 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyHopper JohnnyHopper wrote:

You wouldn't need sex ed if you could still horse whip both parties. I have a real simple plan for preventing teen pregency, its called buh-bye. You screw up, you're gone. You proved you're an adult and now will leave. Don't call, don't write and don't even for a minute think I'm raising my grandkids. I also will not be paying for a car, car insurance or college or sending money for whatever. They can make it right by marrying the other dolt but that doesn't mean I don't get to throw him down the stairs first or forget her name and simply revert to calling both of them "hey you" and "whats-her-slut". If you know the penalty for being stupid and you still mess-up, then you're willing to face the penalty. Just like prison, I play nice because I don't want teh butsecs.





lol

Not really, but I've got more tries than most to get the whole "raising kids right" thing done :)

You didn't have a perfect world 100 years ago...in fact it was must less so. So what changed in terms of kids not being pregnant at 9?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrenalinejunky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2008 at 5:12pm
Originally posted by JohnnyHopper JohnnyHopper wrote:

Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyHopper JohnnyHopper wrote:

You wouldn't need sex ed if you could still horse whip both parties. I have a real simple plan for preventing teen pregency, its called buh-bye. You screw up, you're gone. You proved you're an adult and now will leave. Don't call, don't write and don't even for a minute think I'm raising my grandkids. I also will not be paying for a car, car insurance or college or sending money for whatever. They can make it right by marrying the other dolt but that doesn't mean I don't get to throw him down the stairs first or forget her name and simply revert to calling both of them "hey you" and "whats-her-slut". If you know the penalty for being stupid and you still mess-up, then you're willing to face the penalty. Just like prison, I play nice because I don't want teh butsecs.





lol

Not really, but I've got more tries than most to get the whole "raising kids right" thing done :)

You didn't have a perfect world 100 years ago...in fact it was must less so. So what changed in terms of kids not being pregnant at 9?


we are just giving kids way too much free time, if we put the little tikes to work in a factory like they do in oher countries they wouldnt have the time or energy for all this fornication.

seriously though, look at our society, is it that hard to figure out?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2008 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by JohnnyHopper JohnnyHopper wrote:

You wouldn't need sex ed if you
could still horse whip both parties. I have a real
simple plan for preventing teen pregency, its called
buh-bye. You screw up, you're gone. You proved you're an
adult and now will leave. Don't call, don't write and
don't even for a minute think I'm raising my grandkids.
I also will not be paying for a car, car insurance or
college or sending money for whatever. They can make it
right by marrying the other dolt but that doesn't mean I
don't get to throw him down the stairs first or forget
her name and simply revert to calling both of them "hey
you" and "whats-her-slut". If you know the penalty for
being stupid and you still mess-up, then you're willing
to face the penalty. Just like prison, I play nice
because I don't want teh butsecs.


So you'd see your teenage daughter kicked out of the
house, with no income, forced to drop out of school and
get a menial job (what kind of job can you get with a
grade 11 education) just to keep herself and her child
alive, never mind a reasonable quality of life? You'd
have her forsake an education, job prospects, and any
realistic chance of anything beyond a minimum wage job
or perhaps in ten years managing a MacDonalds as a
result of giving in to the most fundamental, natural and
powerful biological impulse humans have beyond the basic
need to eat and sleep?

You are a fool.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2008 at 5:26pm

Originally posted by JohnnyHopper JohnnyHopper wrote:


You didn't have a perfect world 100 years ago...in fact it was must less so. So what changed in terms of kids not being pregnant at 9?

What makes you think there weren't teen pregnancies before?  That seems a bit of an unwarranted assumption...

Of course, back in the day girls were married by 16 at the latest, which gave less time for pre-marital shenanigans.

Menarche also hits earlier now than before, but that is really a minor factor. 

Truth is that teen pregnancy has always been a reality.

EDIT - very first hit on google:  http://marriage.rutgers.edu/Publications/pubteenp.htm

 



Edited by Bruce Banner - 03 September 2008 at 5:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce Banner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2008 at 5:30pm

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

So you'd see your teenage daughter kicked out of the
house, with no income, forced to drop out of school and
get a menial job (what kind of job can you get with a
grade 11 education) just to keep herself and her child
alive, never mind a reasonable quality of life? You'd
have her forsake an education, job prospects, and any
realistic chance of anything beyond a minimum wage job
or perhaps in ten years managing a MacDonalds as a
result of giving in to the most fundamental, natural and
powerful biological impulse humans have beyond the basic
need to eat and sleep?

You are a fool.

Don't forget the part where he is abandoning his grandkids as well.

In 'Merica, we call that "taking responsibility."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2008 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by Bruce Banner Bruce Banner wrote:

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

So you'd see
your teenage daughter kicked out of the house, with no
income, forced to drop out of school and get a menial
job (what kind of job can you get with a grade 11
education) just to keep herself and her child alive,
never mind a reasonable quality of life? You'd have her
forsake an education, job prospects, and any realistic
chance of anything beyond a minimum wage job or perhaps
in ten years managing a MacDonalds as a result of giving
in to the most fundamental, natural and powerful
biological impulse humans have beyond the basic need to
eat and sleep? You are a fool.


Don't forget the part where he is abandoning his
grandkids as well.


In 'Merica, we call that "taking
responsibility."



Oh yeah, that too.

In Canada our first grandkids put us out on ice flows on
their 12th birthday. It's sort of their passage into
adulthood, and it serves to continually remove a burden
from the economy.

I don't know how that works down in the states.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

-FreeEnterprise, 21 April 2011.

Yup, he actually said that.
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