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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jerseypaint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 12:22am
Eh. The only problem I have is when people just plain speak English incorrectly when they have been brought up in an English speaking society and educated in the English language. It's not an accent or anything, its just plain misuse of the language in general. If people are paying their taxes to teach you it, at least learn and apply it.

But if people can't speak the language or don't choose too, that doesn't bother me one bit. As long as it doesn't affect me all that much, no bother. If they fail to learn the #1 spoken language of the country, that really only hurts them. And if people prefer to speak a certain language, hells if I care. I grew up with half a Puerto Rican family and was never taught the language so I'm used to not knowing whats being said.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote God Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 2:53am
Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Originally posted by Hades Hades wrote:



What is so difficult about learning a few extra 1000 words to be able to communicate with others around you?

I find it sad that people are willing to learn, nearly instantaneously, new, technology related words that have existed for very short time but are unwilling to learn words that have been around in different cultures for many many generations.

Unless someone lives in YOUR home or in a business YOU own, who cares what they speak?


Not even close to a valid point Hades, not even close. English speakers learning new english based words to add to their english vocabulary to use in a conventional english sentence is NOT at all like learning a new language. You need to learn not just the words, but how the language is structured/ used. Learning a second language != learning what "blogging" means.


Learning 50 key words/phrases in another language is far easier than keeping up with all of the new words, acronyms, and phrases technology spits out each year.

The big difference is the motivation. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote White o Light Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 3:31am
Originally posted by God God wrote:


Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Originally posted by Hades Hades wrote:



What is so difficult about learning a few extra 1000 words to be able to
communicate with others around you?

I find it sad that people are willing to learn, nearly instantaneously, new,
technology related words that have existed for very short time but are
unwilling to learn words that have been around in different cultures for
many many generations.

Unless someone lives in YOUR home or in a business YOU own, who cares
what they speak?


Not even close to a valid point Hades, not even close. English speakers
learning new english based words to add to their english vocabulary to
use in a conventional english sentence is NOT at all like learning a new
language. You need to learn not just the words, but how the language is
structured/ used. Learning a second language != learning what
"blogging" means.
Learning 50 key words/phrases in another
language is far easier than keeping up with all of the new words,
acronyms, and phrases technology spits out each year. The big difference
is the motivation. 


All i have is BROdivation
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote choopie911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 8:22am
Originally posted by God God wrote:


Originally posted by choopie911 choopie911 wrote:

Originally posted by Hades Hades wrote:



What is so difficult about learning a few extra 1000 words to be able to communicate with others around you?

I find it sad that people are willing to learn, nearly instantaneously, new, technology related words that have existed for very short time but are unwilling to learn words that have been around in different cultures for many many generations.

Unless someone lives in YOUR home or in a business YOU own, who cares what they speak?


Not even close to a valid point Hades, not even close. English speakers learning new english based words to add to their english vocabulary to use in a conventional english sentence is NOT at all like learning a new language. You need to learn not just the words, but how the language is structured/ used. Learning a second language != learning what "blogging" means.
Learning 50 key words/phrases in another language is far easier than keeping up with all of the new words, acronyms, and phrases technology spits out each year. The big difference is the motivation.


Again, I'm sorry but that's just dead wrong. Also most people don't even bother to keep up with technological phrases. And once again, they're just learning a new word to use in familiar sentence structure with other words they've known since they were a kid. Also, when learning tech words, you aren't presented with a list of them, they just evolve and come about over time, which again makes it even easier.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 8:39am
LOL at rich suburbia kids speaking ebonics. That pretty much sums up my community. It is truly pathetic in all sense. Rich kids thinking they are from the hood etc etc. My parents a not poor at any sense, but they make just enough to live here. To give me a great education and safe living environment. But I have had to pay for my truck and bike. While everyone else has everything given to them.

But do I care? Actually I do. I hate going to every party and constantly listening to rap. This being that, when I grow up; I will never listen to this garbage. My parents had a great generation. In that the music they listened as teens, they still listen too. So when they hear a song in 2008 from 1975, it brings back memories from their high school years. We are not going to have that (at least my situation). I have basically de-railed the thread into a anti hip hop thread, but I really don't care.


Edited by impulse! - 19 June 2008 at 8:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akhmed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 9:09am

Originally posted by impulse! impulse! wrote:

  I have basically de-railed the thread into a anti hip hop thread, but I really don't care.

Actually, I think you staying right on topic for the thread:  xenophobia.

"Virtue is more to be feared than vice, because its excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience. "
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 9:20am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:


But, it was realized immediately that they needed to learn English right away.


And soon after they rode around on unicorns and frolicked in the brain trees, and tons of other stuff that happened in stuff-that-didn't-really-happen land.

In reality land, it took multiple generations for people to learn English, because, often in cities, they were working/living around people who came from the same country they did.



Multiple generations.....in some cases. Not nearly all. It might not have been as prevalent with the older folks of the first generation line, but their kids who may have even been born overseas learned English real quick. Many people I know who are sons and daughters of first generation immigrants speak English flawlessly- They themselves believed that they needed it to better the situation they had. I've heard it from their own mouths. They'd go home to their parents and speak Italian, German, or whatever, but when they left for the day, they were learning and using English. Yes, the factories they worked in were filled with people of their own culture, but a stunning number of them struggled to learn English on their own.

It led to multi-linguistics, but it never once pointed to the staunch refusal to learn the English Language that you see today. Nor did you have the American people as a whole trying to learn German, Italian, or whatever so they could speak and communicate with the influx of immigrants.  The immigrants knew it was up to them- there was a sense of respect for the culture they had chosen to join. They were thankful for the chance to get in and better their situations, and proved it by going to work, and learning the culture and language of the people around them.

But I guess I'm mistaken. Why did I spend 4 years in college to be a social studies teacher when I could have spent 15 minutes listening to you? The money I could have saved.........






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 9:36am
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:


staunch refusal to learn the English Language that you see today.


That is a pretty epic straw man.
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skillet42565 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 9:47am
Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:


staunch refusal to learn the English Language that you see today.


That is a pretty epic straw man.


I don't get it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akhmed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 9:51am

I do think that this time around is "different" - I suspect it has most to do with the shrinking world, or in this case the shrinking nation.

A hundred years ago people (once they had arrived to where they were going) often didn't leave their little town ever again, or their neighborhood in a city.  As a result, there was much more localization in terms of language.

At the same time, immigrants flocked to their own.  This gave us Chinatown (and similar ethnic neighborhoods) in large cities, and entire ethnic villages in the rural areas.  Within these ethinc enclaves, the original language was the dominant language, and since they didn't interact much with the outside world there was little need to learn any other languages.  This is why there were fourth-generation Norwegian-Americans in Coon Valley, WI, that did not speak English - in the 1950s.

These days, that level of isolationism is pretty hard to maintain, and most people have to work pretty hard at avoiding English.  Immigrants today generally do learn English faster than those a hundred years ago, out of simple necessity.  But it is not that hard to find people who have lived here for decades without seeing the point to learning English, because they don't need to.  It is less common than before, certainly, but not that unusual.

The reason those aren't the immigrants you know, Reb, is because, well, you speak English.  You don't get to meet the auntie that came here at age 60 and has no intention of learning a new language, or the domestic servants brought over specifically because they don't speak English, or the refugees that might like to learn English but are hiding in the safety of their own communities.

The only non-English-speakers most of us see are the gardners and cleaning staff, which clouds our judgement. 

/ramble



Edited by Akhmed - 19 June 2008 at 10:06am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote agentwhale007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 10:03am
Originally posted by Skillet42565 Skillet42565 wrote:


Originally posted by agentwhale007 agentwhale007 wrote:

Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:


staunch refusal to learn the English Language that you see today.


That is a pretty epic straw man.
I don't get it.


What Akhmed said.
"So when Romney wins in a landslide, what will the liberal media do?"
This Ma**edited**hine Kills **edited**as**edited**ists.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evil Elvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 10:07am
Ja te voy a robar tu trabajo y tu mujeres!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gator Taco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 10:08am
Native Americans = Cool
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akhmed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 10:26am

Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:

Ja te voy a robar tu trabajo y tu mujeres!

You have a jerb?

"Virtue is more to be feared than vice, because its excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience. "
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 10:39am
I beg to differ Akhmed- In my travels, I have run into many immigrants who do not yet speak English and have been here for decades. In fact, one of my closest friend's mother does not speak English at all, and her father speaks only enough to get by. Every summer this girl has to fly to California to interpret for her father. Even her grandmother, refuses to learn English, so Wei needs to drive to NYC every time her grandmother needs to go to the doctor or interact with public service officials.

I'm saying that the majority of the immigrants to this country in the past have made a significant effort to learn English. Some did not, but most of them did. If it wasn't them, it was their kids, certainly not "Many generations" Don't believe me? Ask people of European ancestry in their 40s and 50s whose parents were first generation immigrants what their heritage is. Odds are, your answer will be in perfectly comprehensible English.

The main point I'm trying to drive at, is that with the innumerable of legal immigrants that flooded the country in our recent history, the American (existing) culture was not forced to learn all the languages of the people coming in. Out of respect and often times necessity, most of them learned English. Today is a thousand times different. We as the existing culture are  being pushed to learn  the languages of the people that are coming into this country, not the other way around Does it hurt to learn another language? Certainly not, I don't think anyone can make that claim. But to be pushed into something that I don't think should be necessary, that's going to put my back up.

Again, retaining your own language and culture is a great thing. I often wish I could speak the languages of my ancestors.

I guess I see a refusal to learn English as disrespectful, especially if you're in a community whose predominant language IS English, that being said, Why in the hell should I have to adopt a second language to talk to 6 people?

Simplified:

I say "Speak English so I can order coffee"

You say "Speak Spanish or don't order coffee"








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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FlimFlam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 10:47am

Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:

Ja te voy a robar tu trabajo y tu mujeres!

I think Akhmed may have nailed it on the head.  Technology and the culture shift of the last 30 have changed this country dramatically and those who don't speak English well or at all are just more visible. 

For those of you who get so upset that the guy at McDonalds can't understand you, or you him/her, what's wrong with politely asking for someone who speaks English?  If you live in an area that has a heavy concentration of non-English speaking people, why not pick up enough of the language to do just that?  Does that somehow offend your delicate sensibilities or your Patriotism?  I've got news for you kids, 'Globalization' has changed things dramatically in the business world, and it's here to stay. 

I work for a company that has manufacturing facilities all over the world.  I routinely work with people from India, China, Brazil, Mexico, France, Germany.... etc.  I always feel like an uncultured American because even though I struggle to understand many of these people, their English is always better than my Mandarin or German, or whatever. 

Whenever I have traveled to these places, I always take the time the week before to learn key phrases in the native language of that country, and as EE said, it's the polite thing to do.  Spend some of your time on the Interwebz to educate yourself a bit.  Inside of an hour you could learn enough disarm that 'hostile' situation where you can't understand someone.  If no one there speaks English, take your business elsewhere, that's your choice.  Let the free market decide whether that establishment stays or goes....


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FlimFlam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 10:56am

Not to beat the Reb horse here... but...

Un café por favor.

Gracias.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 11:12am
Originally posted by FlimFlam FlimFlam wrote:

Not to beat the Reb horse here... but...

Un café por favor.

Gracias.



Con leche y asucar, o negro?

....jerk


Edited by Reb Cpl - 19 June 2008 at 11:12am


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 11:45am
Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:


You know that they are doing it so they can make fun of the people around them. Even if not, it is obviously the impression that they are giving out.


My family is full of perfectly capable English speakers, but we choose to speak in Turkish instead.

Why? It's not because we like to make fun of the people around us. And we represent the majority of people who like to speak in other languages in public. Even though I know English much better than Turkish, and that I started speaking both languages at roughly the same time (English first), we speak to each other in Turkish wherever we are. Even in the privacy of our own home, not a word of English is uttered between my parents and I unless I don't know the Turkish words I need to make my point (my sister makes a point of not speaking Turkish, though even she sometimes can't resist and begins to talk like we do).

In public, it's just more comfortable to speak to each other the way we do at home. People have no business listening in on our conversations anyway. Most of what we say is the same that anyone else would say at those locations.

We talk about products and politics and world events and how our days went and even a little bit of gossip, though it comes from my mom more than anyone else. Yes, we have made fun of people, but even so, we do it as if we were speaking English; we whisper to each other from far away. Again, it's more out of comfort then the ability to speak our minds out loud when surrounded by English speakers.

So, as Whale said, you're pretty paranoid. I'd like to add ignorant and xenophobic to that, because you are. Open your mind, n00b.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 12:02pm
But you can speak English, and do when its necessary. I haven't got any problem with that. Hell, even if you WERE making fun of me, what the hell do I care? People do that in English anyway. Its your right and your freedom to speak any language you damn well please as long as you're able to communicate with the people around you when necessary.

Speak Turkis, Yiddish, Spanish, Kurdish, Basque, Gaelic, whatever you please, all the live long day. But if someone who doesn't speak these languages needs to interact with you, an inability to do so would be rude, given the fact that you're in a place where the majority of the people speak English.

If I went to Spain with my family, we're obviously going to speak english to each other. To talk about the weather, to make fun of the guy in the next booth at the restaurant, to tell each other that their zipper is down....whatever. But as soon as I need to ask directions to Madrid, I damn well better be able to do it in Spanish, otherwise its nothing more than disrespectful. How dare I assume that everyone there should speak English?


 

Edited by Reb Cpl - 19 June 2008 at 12:03pm


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