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This is why we’re boned....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote  Rp Fr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2008 at 10:44pm
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

Rather than look for new places to drill for oil, I think more effort needs to be placed in developing alternate energy sources


The problem with that is, the oil companies will buy the released technology immediately, and sit on it to preserve their profits. I wouldn't be too surprised if that's happening now.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote XtremeBordom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2008 at 10:55pm
Originally posted by RoboCop RoboCop wrote:

The only reason I can see us not using our oil fields in our country is to preserve them and that way when the other countries are out of oil, we will have supreme power and have a better economy than any other country. But there still is no reason to drill offshore.

I am all for alternative power, but for the application of vehicles, our economy is going down too fast for anyone to be able to purchase a new car that accepts the new fuel.


Alright then, let me try to explain to you that there is newly discovered oil under South Dakota that could last us well over 100 years. They locals there named it the "Bakken" oil formation. Billions of gallons of crude. Maybe even 100s of billions. Yet the liberal senate and government wont let the oil companies drill there. More oil = less gas prices = were happy = everyone is happy but the treehuggers. But they wont be happy until everyone is living in stick houses, barely living on any scraps of food, and we can find with no means of transportation or technology anywhere.

Heres the link that explains it all.

and don't even get me started on the oil refineries that haven't been built in nearly 40 years. So where looking at 30 year old technology that hasn't been updated since. So of course there is pollution from them because they haven't been refurbished. Its kinda like your car. If you don't do anything to it except put gas in it for 30 years you'll get the same kinda piece of junk = a pollution-causing rust bucket that nobody likes.


Edited by XtremeBordom - 10 June 2008 at 11:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gator Taco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2008 at 10:58pm
Originally posted by Benjichang Benjichang wrote:

Either way, it still sucks for everyone in the short-term I guess. 


Could be long term as well.

How many people are getting laid off because Ford, GM, and Chrysler are shutting down? I just read that Ford has stopped production of their Diesel trucks because they aren't selling. The gas crisis (yes, I am calling it a crisis), is effecting more and more Americans each day, and now its spreading beyond the pump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2008 at 10:59pm
The finger pointing at liberals is just as funny as blaming conservatives. Drilling does not mean lower prices, just as much as taxing profits won't help. Economics is a tricky subject, but studying both macro & micro in this situation could help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2008 at 11:06pm
I don't understand why people are still so focused on the cost of oil as the source of high gas prices.  Its part of the equation, but the problem is we haven't built a new refinery in decades, and it doesn't help that we've lost a few recently.  Demand is going up, supply is going down.  Its simple economics.

The liberals seem a bit more correct to me on this issue. That being said, I don't like the idea of capping gas prices, and even taxing gas companies for excessive profits bugs me.  How about instead of punishing oil companies we offer incentives to develop new refineries and alternate energy sources.  I don't think we're that close to running out of oil, but when it does dry up, I cannot see civilization sustaining itself for long.


Edited by Darur - 10 June 2008 at 11:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote XtremeBordom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2008 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

The finger pointing at liberals is just as funny as blaming conservatives. Drilling does not mean lower prices, just as much as taxing profits won't help. Economics is a tricky subject, but studying both macro & micro in this situation could help.


Supply and demand my friend, supply and demand. The more oil we have the lower the prices will be because we wont have to ship it as far and its common sense. When people first started to mine copper the price was the same as gold until they found more of it and the price fell dramatically. Same goes with diamonds on the flip side. Why do they cost so much? Because they are so dang rare and the cost to mine and find them is huge also. Use your brain.


Edited by XtremeBordom - 10 June 2008 at 11:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote XtremeBordom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2008 at 11:11pm
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

I don't understand why people are still so focused on the cost of oil as the source of high gas prices.  Its part of the equation, but the problem is we haven't built a new refinery in decades, and it doesn't help that we've lost a few recently.  Demand is going up, supply is going down.  Its simple economics.


refer to my previous post further up ^^^
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2008 at 11:17pm
Demand has been steady for the past two years, even with the onset of China and India consumption. Once again, spend some time in a macro class. Even with supply high, the weak dollar makes it a viable market, investors hedge their investments, and prices stay high. Drilling and taxing are both too short term or overall useless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2008 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by XtremeBordom XtremeBordom wrote:

Supply and demand my friend, supply and demand. The more oil we have the lower the prices will be because we wont have to ship it as far and its common sense. When people first started to mine copper the price was the same as gold until they found more of it and the price fell dramatically. Same goes with diamonds on the flip side. Why do they cost so much? Because they are so dang rare and the cost to mine and find them is huge also. Use your brain.


Read my post.

I said specifically the cost of oil is part of the equation, not the whole of it. Oil prices fluctuate but historically gas prices remain fair steady.  The heart of the problem is we haven't built a refinery since 1976.  The refineries we have no are struggling to put out the gas we need, creating a low supply.  Demand is on the rise.  What happens when demand rises and supply falls?  Prices rise.

Today there is very little incentive to build a refinery.  They take many many years to complete and cost billions and billions of dollars. Why would anyone want to invest in a project like that with biofuels, hydrogen, and hybrid technology on the horizon?

Oil prices do correlate with gas prices, but they do not adequately explain the current rise in gas prices.

Originally posted by XtremeBordom XtremeBordom wrote:

Heres the link that explains it all.


Did you just base an argument on a magazine ad . . . ?


Edited by Darur - 10 June 2008 at 11:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoboCop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2008 at 11:25pm
Originally posted by XtremeBordom XtremeBordom wrote:

Originally posted by RoboCop RoboCop wrote:

The only reason I can see us not using our oil fields in our country is to preserve them and that way when the other countries are out of oil, we will have supreme power and have a better economy than any other country. But there still is no reason to drill offshore.

I am all for alternative power, but for the application of vehicles, our economy is going down too fast for anyone to be able to purchase a new car that accepts the new fuel.


Alright then, let me try to explain to you that there is newly discovered oil under South Dakota that could last us well over 100 years. They locals there named it the "Bakken" oil formation. Billions of gallons of crude. Maybe even 100s of billions. Yet the liberal senate and government wont let the oil companies drill there. More oil = less gas prices = were happy = everyone is happy but the treehuggers. But they wont be happy until everyone is living in stick houses, barely living on any scraps of food, and we can find with no means of transportation or technology anywhere.

Heres the link that explains it all.

and don't even get me started on the oil refineries that haven't been built in nearly 40 years. So where looking at 30 year old technology that hasn't been updated since. So of course there is pollution from them because they haven't been refurbished. Its kinda like your car. If you don't do anything to it except put gas in it for 30 years you'll get the same kinda piece of junk = a pollution-causing rust bucket that nobody likes.
Haha. Sorry I meant to say "There is still no reason to not drill offshore."
I was the first to post on here and I said to drill offshore on there too.

I think I was watching CNN and they said that McCain is all for expanding drilling in the US. That's good.


Edited by RoboCop - 10 June 2008 at 11:28pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote XtremeBordom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2008 at 11:30pm
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

Today there is very little incentive to build a refinery.  They take many many years to complete and cost billions and billions of dollars. Why would anyone want to invest in a project like that with biofuels, hydrogen, and hybrid technology on the horizon?

Oil prices do correlate with gas prices, but they do not adequately explain the current rise in gas prices.


You said they take years to complete and billions of dollars. Back in 1995 they tried to build a few refineries only to get shut down by the government. The estimate was 10 years to complete them. We could of had new refineries by now but no thanks to the liberals, they really screwed us over. In my mind its never too late to start. If the oil companies are so rich, couldn't they build them no matter the cost? You are right about the horizon part of it though. It could take 20-30 years before any of those technologies would be cost-effective and conventional. While you could drill and make new refineries in half the time.


Edited by XtremeBordom - 10 June 2008 at 11:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gator Taco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2008 at 11:31pm
You guys might find this interesting/

Originally posted by Autoblog Autoblog wrote:

the upcoming change in CAFE standards that will required a fleet average of 28.6 mpg for light duty trucks by 2015


Found that in an article about the upcoming F-100. Which will have a turbo diesel option.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote XtremeBordom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2008 at 11:32pm
Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

Did you just base an argument on a magazine ad . . . ?


No... its very well known. I heard about it on a talk show radio.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2008 at 11:33pm

Wow, that's interesting that it's the liberals fault they stopped production in 1995. Especially considering that Republicans had control over Congress at that time. Playing the partisan blame game won't make anyone believe you more.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote XtremeBordom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2008 at 11:37pm
Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

Wow, that's interesting that it's the liberals fault they stopped production in 1995. Especially considering that Republicans had control over Congress at that time. Playing the partisan blame game won't make anyone believe you more.



I didnt say congress I said government. That means supreme court because the environmentalist liberals sued the oil companies for trying to do anything, and the supreme court overruled the new development and retarded the progress.

I'm not imposing a liberal supreme court either. The liberals know how to talk their way out of anything.


Edited by XtremeBordom - 10 June 2008 at 11:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2008 at 11:39pm

So if the Supreme Court ruled, then it wasn't liberal fault. Once again, look at the actual problem, not partisan politics.

It's sad that people on both sides of the spectrum play this type of game. It's this bickering that was Reb's initial point.



Edited by Dune - 10 June 2008 at 11:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote *Stealth* Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2008 at 11:47pm
Originally posted by XtremeBordom XtremeBordom wrote:

Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

Wow, that's interesting that it's the liberals fault they stopped production in 1995. Especially considering that Republicans had control over Congress at that time. Playing the partisan blame game won't make anyone believe you more.



I didnt say congress I said government. That means supreme court because the environmentalist liberals sued the oil companies for trying to do anything, and the supreme court overruled the new development and retarded the progress.

I'm not imposing a liberal supreme court either. The liberals know how to talk their way out of anything.



How old are you, 16?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2008 at 7:26am
The lack of updates refining capabilities is a huge reason we're getting mobbed at the pumps. We can't build or update our capabilities because of the environmental lobbyists who have government officials on a payroll.

There's a good point though, about investing the money in refineries when there's new technology 'on the horizon' The problem I see, is that even if the technology comes out tomorrow, it'll take decades to make it applicable to everyone on the road. Unless they come out with some special thing that'll convert a gas engine to something that'll use salt water, they're going to need to wait until my car dies and I have the money for a new one with the new technology. In that time, millions like me will need gasoline. Even after I make the switch, there will be the need for petroleum products. Saying there isn't a point in building a refinery doesn't make sense to me. We're going to need oil after every American household is driving a car that's run on fairy dust.

Again though, despite environmental lobbying holding back our abilities to update our capabilities, I can't just say 'liberals are to blame' because when they offer a solution, albeit probably only a temporary one, the conservatives kill it.

Neither side wants the other to be the one who comes up with the solution. Not only is it a money game, its a joust for power. Whichever camp comes up with the winning idea has major brownie points for whatever election comes up next.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jubba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 June 2008 at 9:06pm
The oil companies make 300 billion a quarter in profit and they blame the polar bear being put on the endangered spiecies list and not being able to drill in Alaska as too why we are paying to much at the pump. What a load of ----! First thing Dubbua did was overrule every environmental act Clinton implimented his last 12 months. We have a oil man as president. When he was sworn in president oil was $30 a barrel now it's over $140. Gas was $1.09 a gallon now it's $4.19 a gallon. Opec hates this president for invading iraq under false intelligents so they are purposely keeping production down to keep prices high. But the 300 billion a quarter that just good old fasioned price gouging. And this administration would rather blame some tree hugging liberals then tell the truth. Truth is the presidents stock portfolio has multiplied 400% and who cares if you throw a few million middle class people under the bus to get richer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 June 2008 at 9:28pm
I can only see a few benefits of preventing the tapping of oil.

The one I can see as worth waiting for is the fact that our situation is driving forward the research on alternative energy. While yes, it will take decades until all citizens will be fossil fuel free, it's best if we can at least get the cars off of it.

Like Reb said, oil has many uses besides fuel, and will still be required for those products long after we stop using fossil fuels. Once cars are off of oil, we will have more around for transportation that will take much longer to adopt new forms of energy (particularly aircraft). If somehow we deplete the world's stores before industries like aviation can adopt oil-replacements, we will face a huge industrial and transportation crisis.

The sooner cars can go to hydrogen/electric and ships can go nuclear, the more time we will have to solve the problems of more oil dependent industries.

I really hope fusion reactors begin working soon. Considering the potential they have to produce near limitless energy, it is our best hope for the near future. Add the fact that supercapacitors (basically batteries that can be charged in seconds or minutes instead of hours), are beginning to develop, and it's easy to see why a purely electricity based world is going to be much better for us when all these technologies come together.
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