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StormyKnight View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormyKnight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2008 at 6:18pm

Originally posted by Snake6 Snake6 wrote:

Damn, how did I not see this sooner?

I might post on the subject later, but right now I have a wedding to go to.

   That's what I was wondering too.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ThatGuitarGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2008 at 6:26pm
Spike, the reason I worry so much about the "sniper" word in paintball, is the 6 years of my life that I just spent in the Marines as a "Scout/Sniper" and the countless weeks of training and practice.

Now, for someone who just bought an 18" barrel, and decides to hide in the woods and take out some people with some paintballs to call themselves a "sniper" this greatly takes away from the prestige that is carried in the Armed Forces for my rank and MOS.

A "sniper" is trained in the art of concealment, and marksmanship.  When you can demonstrate to me or any Ex- or current Soldier, that you can lay low for hours, days, even weeks at a time, waiting on your high-priority target, and take him out from long range (I had rules to never engage at less than 300 yards, unless in a life or death situation) then you can throw around this "sniper" word.


Edited by ThatGuitarGuy - 11 April 2008 at 6:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2008 at 6:38pm

Originally posted by ThatGuitarGuy ThatGuitarGuy wrote:

Spike, the reason I worry so much about the "sniper" word in paintball, is the 6 years of my life that I just spent in the Marines as a "Scout/Sniper" and the countless weeks of training and practice.

Now, for someone who just bought an 18" barrel, and decides to hide in the woods and take out some people with some paintballs to call themselves a "sniper" this greatly takes away from the prestige that is carried in the Armed Forces for my rank and MOS.

I'm sorry, but that is really dumb.

Does it also offend you that I wear MARPAT despite not being a Marine?  How about if I like people to call me "general" on the field, despite not being an actual general?

Hate to break it to you, but paintball is dress-up time.  Should the Scots be offended every time somebody plays paintball in a kilt?

Seriously.  If a guy wants to run around playing "sniper", what business is that of yours?

Your panties - untwist them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ThatGuitarGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2008 at 6:44pm
Actually, you wearing MarPat doesn't bother me at all.  Unless it's Marine Issue MarPat.  Then I would like to know where you got it.

Ehh.  Rank doesn't bother me, and I'm pretty sure I've never seen anyone playing paintball in a kilt.  Although, that's an interesting idea, with my Scottish heritage and all.

My issue is someone calling themselves "sniper" while only using general infantry tactics.  Anyone who went through Basic knows how to use their surroundings for cover, and basic hiding.
Lying in wait and shooting someone at close range isn't "sniping," it's basically an ambush.  All they need is the rest of their squad there for back up.




Edited by ThatGuitarGuy - 11 April 2008 at 6:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2008 at 6:44pm
Originally posted by Snake6 Snake6 wrote:

Damn, how did I not see this sooner?


You must be slipping.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2008 at 6:48pm

Originally posted by ThatGuitarGuy ThatGuitarGuy wrote:


My issue is someone calling themselves "sniper" while only using general infantry tactics.  Anyone who went through Basic knows how to use their surroundings for cover, and basic hiding.


Still all twisted up.

Children run around playing "cowboys" and "indians" when they are neither.  Should that offend anybody?

Seriously - you are taking this game WAY too seriously.  It's a game.  People are playing.  My hint for happy living:  If people are playing, you shouldn't take it too seriously.  Getting offended by a game is really silly.

(And you haven't seen anybody in a kilt?  Seriously?  That's pretty common around here...)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notom66866 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2008 at 6:55pm

I have an idea gentleman. Lets make a sticky post called "There are no snipers in paintball... Period! It will be the first thing people see when entering the forum. That way people will know what will happen when they say " I want to be a sniper." This will save alot of time as every time somebody makes this comment they get "yelled" at for about 50 posts. I've only been a member of this forum since March and I've already seen about 8 "Sniper Gate" posts.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ThatGuitarGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2008 at 7:06pm
Originally posted by notom66866 notom66866 wrote:

I have an idea gentleman. Lets make a sticky post called "There are no snipers in paintball... Period! It will be the first thing people see when entering the forum. That way people will know what will happen when they say " I want to be a sniper." This will save alot of time as every time somebody makes this comment they get "yelled" at for about 50 posts. I've only been a member of this forum since March and I've already seen about 8 "Sniper Gate" posts.  


It's much more fun to smash their hopes and dreams.  And new forum people tend to not read the stickies anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snake6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2008 at 11:21pm
There used to be a sticky about it. Nobody read it, so it was taken down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spikee187 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2008 at 11:34am
I understand of the capabilities of a Marine scout sniper. I am a full blooded U.S. citizen and love and respect my country. Now if your offended by the use of the word sniper well then thats somewhat disappointing. If you do not like the use of the word due to the lack of guns that shoot as far as a sniper rifle fine. If you do not like the use of the word sniper because there are usually only subtle differences in accuracy fine. But when you take it offensively then well thats your own issue.    A paintball sniper and a regular sniper have their differences and their similarities. They take shots from a distance, they hope for an elimination in one shot, and they often where ghillies and sit for quite some time. On the other hand they don't have the range they don't have a spotter, and they don't sit for half the time of a real sniper. Those are just differences in opinions and well those will be debated and argued throughout the ages I'm sure of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2008 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by Spikee187 Spikee187 wrote:

I understand of the capabilities of a Marine scout sniper. I am a full blooded U.S. citizen and love and respect my country. Now if your offended by the use of the word sniper well then thats somewhat disappointing.

I can't speak for others, but I'm not offended.  However there are a lot of new players who read these forums, so I correct misinformation when I can.  The existence of paintball snipers is an example of such misinformation.  Inexperienced players hear the term "paintball sniper" and visualize themselves as Carlos Hathcock taking down important opponents and singlehandedly winning the game when the truth is that there generally are no opponents more important than any other*, they only get a shot if someone is unlucky/stupid enough to wander up to them** and they generally end up hurting their team by removing themselves from the game and hiding.

If you do not like the use of the word due to the lack of guns that shoot as far as a sniper rifle fine.

No problem with the word at all; the problem is with applying it to paintball.  As you just pointed out paintball technology and rules result in all markers being essentially equal in the range department***.  Thus, one of the primary aspects of being a sniper does not apply to paintball.

If you do not like the use of the word sniper because there are usually only subtle differences in accuracy fine.

Actually, I hadn't considered that, but you have brought up an excellent additional argument against the existence of paintball snipers. One of the attributes of snipers is specialized equipment that provides accuracy beyond what the normal line troops have.  As you rightly pointed out, this doesn't really exist in paintball.  Thank you for pointing out a non-applicable aspect of this belief that I had not previously considered.

But when you take it offensively then well thats your own issue.

I'm not offended, I'm just correcting misperceptions.  You are absolutely right though; everyone has a right to believe what they want.  However, when they pass an incorrect belief (or a belief that is perceived as being incorrect) off as fact, then they should also expect to have that belief challenged and realize that others will expect them to support their assertions.  If they fail to support their assertions, then they should not be surprised when others continue to consider them as being wrong and continue to point this out as a counter to those incorrect statements.

A paintball sniper and a regular sniper have their differences . . .

Wouldn't these differences that you admit to then make the "paintball sniper" not a sniper?

. . . and their similarities.

Similarities can be drawn between many different things; such similarities do not make one thing another.  For instance, indoor-outdoor carpeting comes in a green color, it does not make it grass. 

They take shots from a distance, . . .

Which (given the range limitations of paintball equipment) the real snipers make on a regular basis and the paintball snipers don't.

. . . they hope for an elimination in one shot, . . .

Paintball snipers "hope," real snipers have training, experience and a specialized weapon to utilize instead.

. . . and they often where (wear) ghillies . . .

Is a paintball sniper the same as a real sniper because they both wear ghillies?  If so, then anyone on the field in BDUs is the same as a real soldier.  This is not a valid argument; utilizing this theory I could put on a set of scrubs and call myself Dr. Mack.

. . . and sit for quite some time.

That is a laughable comparison.  Sitting for "some time" in a paintball game equates to minutes; military snipers have been know to take days, even weeks, to complete a stalk.

On the other hand they don't have the range . . .

Which is one of the primary attributes of snipers.  (This contradict what you said above about one of the similarities being ". . . they take shots from a distance . . .")

. . . they don't have a spotter, . . .

True.  But they don't need one because what they are doing is not sniping.

. . . and they don't sit for half the time of a real sniper.

I won't argue this.  (It does however contradict what you said above about one of the similarities being that they both ". . . sit for quite some time.")

Those are just differences in opinions . . .

True.  Additionally, people are allowed to have differing opinions.  But, when one asserts that one's opinion is correct and others disagree a debate will ensue because those with differing opinions also have a right to state/support their beliefs as well.

. . . and well those will be debated and argued throughout the ages I'm sure of it.

Also true; but when one opinion is supported with facts and logic and the other is supported by baseless assertions, the one with the facts and logic is generally correct.


*I realize there are "generals" in scenario games and that they are worth points.  However, these "generals" don't go wandering around the field getting themselves shot in random ambushes.  Additionally, scenario play is a very miniscule part of woods paintball as a whole.

**If a "paintball sniper" stakes out a path or choke point he may have the opportunity to engage several targets, however anyone silly enough to be using a known path/choke point on the field is probably either a new player or a stupid player; neither of which qualify as high value.  Additionally, this is not sniping, it is ambushing.

***The Flatline and Apex provide additional range, but the accuracy at that additional range negates the possibility of the one-shot-one-kill traditionally associated with sniping.  These barrels are much better suited for fire support roles.


Edited Note:

There is a name for hiding in the bushes and shooting opponents without warning at ranges within the capabilities of the weapons of both forces:  It's called ambushing and it is a basic infantry tactic.


Edited by Mack - 17 April 2008 at 1:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormyKnight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2008 at 3:14pm

Well said Mack.  Nicely done.



Edited by StormyKnight - 12 April 2008 at 3:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ThatGuitarGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2008 at 4:00pm
And Mack said with much more clarity what I have been trying to get across.

Too bad one of the major abilities of a sniper is to go days or weeks without talking.  I've apparently lost most of my communication skills, as I can't get my points across with the clarity I would like.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spikee187 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2008 at 4:35pm
Haha I do like how in depth you the conversation. It makes me have to think much less because you have done the thinking for me. But overall I am not here to debate the existence of snipers in paintball. Honestly I do not care either way about the whole issue, I am rather indifferent to the whole thing. If someone calls themselves a sniper in paintball, I will understand what they mean. Or rather their overall purpose in paintball. So that is probably why the word is so widely used. Granted calling it something doesn't mean it is something. But if a person can say a word, and basically everyone around them knows what they are talking about then well I would rather just call them a sniper. Saves everyone a lot of trouble. So all in all the point remains people will still use the word sniper out of ignorance, simplicity, or even just overall convenience. So no matter what points either side has the arguments will remain roughly 50/50.     If by my posts you feel I am defending the fact that there are snipers in paintball then you are mistaken, as a result of misreading or my error. Probably mostly me. But I will defend the use of the word sniper for convenience. No way will everyone stop using the word so it is just far easier to use the word than to spell it out every time you explain your role/favorite position.

Also thank your for pointing out the where / wear typo i was on my way out and typing in a hurry. I also cannot wait for your dissection of my post.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2008 at 5:09pm
Originally posted by Spikee187 Spikee187 wrote:

Haha I do like how in depth you the conversation. It makes me have to think much less because you have done the thinking for me. But overall I am not here to debate the existence of snipers in paintball. Honestly I do not care either way about the whole issue, I am rather indifferent to the whole thing. If someone calls themselves a sniper in paintball, I will understand what they mean. Or rather their overall purpose in paintball.

I also understand what someone means when they announce they are a sniper at the paintball field.  It means that they are going to go hide someplace and hope someone strolls by for them to shoot.  It means their team is already down one player.

So that is probably why the word is so widely used. Granted calling it something doesn't mean it is something. But if a person can say a word, and basically everyone around them knows what they are talking about then well I would rather just call them a sniper. Saves everyone a lot of trouble. So all in all the point remains people will still use the word sniper out of ignorance, simplicity, or even just overall convenience.

The fact that numerous people may do something does not make that specific something correct.  That is the type of logic shown by a child who justifies an action to his/her parents by saying "everyone else was doing it."

So no matter what points either side has the arguments will remain roughly 50/50. 

Where do you get 50/50 from?  Using just this thread as an example you are the only one advocating this incorrect terminology usage while there are 4 individuals who obviously disagree with you.  That results in an 80% disbelief rate in paintball snipers.  Using your own logic from earlier regarding judging correctness based on numbers you would obviously be wrong.

If by my posts you feel I am defending the fact that there are snipers in paintball then you are mistaken, as a result of misreading or my error. Probably mostly me. But I will defend the use of the word sniper for convenience.

Again, an invalid argument.  Convenience doe not equal correctness. 

No way will everyone stop using the word so it is just far easier to use the word than to spell it out every time you explain your role/favorite position.

Also invalid.  Using this logic one could argue that we should do away with speed limits because so many people ignore them.  Actually, saying "I'm going to set up an ambush" on the field is a more accurate description than saying "I'm going to snipe."  The first case is fairly self-explanatory to everyone; the second would create confusion between the experienced players who realize their team is now down a player and the noobs who visualize the "sniper" as out in the bush making long distance shots without fear of retaliation.

Also thank your for pointing out the where / wear typo i was on my way out and typing in a hurry.

You're welcome.  I normally don't pick apart grammar/spelling unless it's really bad (yours wasn't) but that specific error annoyed me because it was distracting.

I also cannot wait for your dissection of my post.

Provided as requested.


Edited by Mack - 17 April 2008 at 1:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snake6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2008 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by Spikee187 Spikee187 wrote:

Haha I do like how in depth you the conversation.

One of the many services we offer here.

It makes me have to think much less because you have done the thinking for me.

I guess this is why you have failed to provide an effective argument for the existence of snipers in paintball.

 But overall I am not here to debate the existence of snipers in paintball.

Then why did you start the argument in the first place?

Honestly I do not care either way about the whole issue, I am rather indifferent to the whole thing.

Obviously you do, otherwise you would not have tried to argue for the existence of a fictional object.

If someone calls themselves a sniper in paintball, I will understand what they mean. Or rather their overall purpose in paintball. So that is probably why the word is so widely used.

What do they mean? What is their overall purpose? I see that the overall purpose of a wanna be "sniper" is to be a complete noob, someone who sits in the back of the field taking potshots at people from well beyond any range that can be useful to the team, because they are afraid to get hit. I also consider this wanna be "sniper" as a man that has been taken out of the game before it even begins. So as soon as some noob says "im a gonna go snipe at ppls!!" I adjust my strategy accordingly because my team is now playing a man down.

Granted calling it something doesn't mean it is something. But if a person can say a word, and basically everyone around them knows what they are talking about then well I would rather just call them a sniper. Saves everyone a lot of trouble.

That doesn't change the fact that they are a detriment to the team, a useless waste of manpower, and a completely stupid idea to begin with.

 So all in all the point remains people will still use the word sniper out of ignorance, simplicity, or even just overall convenience. So no matter what points either side has the arguments will remain roughly 50/50. 

Um, no. Its not 50/50. Its about 90/10. Every member of this forum except for people who are absolute noobs know the facts that there are no sniper in paintball. I have yet to see one person come to your defense on this issue.

   If by my posts you feel I am defending the fact that there are snipers in paintball then you are mistaken, as a result of misreading or my error. Probably mostly me.

[Translation]I don't have facts, and I am not mentally advanced enough to from logical opinions on this issue so I will act like this never happened.[/Translation]

But I will defend the use of the word sniper for convenience. No way will everyone stop using the word so it is just far easier to use the word than to spell it out every time you explain your role/favorite position.

I do not see how it convenient? What is the first thing people think about when you say sniper? Its defiantly not a one-man close ambush. When I hear the word sniper I think of GySgt Carlos Hathcock, one of the greatest snipers of all time. How does anythign a real sniper do describe what one of your magical "paintball snipers" do?

Also thank your for pointing out the where / wear typo i was on my way out and typing in a hurry. I also cannot wait for your dissection of my post.

Done.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spikee187 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2008 at 5:41pm
Well I agree they are not very valid arguments. The 50/50 is just a rough average, on this topic it's not but this is also not an actual poll or vote. For the most part though the debate rages on due to people either A.) not caring (such as myself overall) B.) They feel strongly ab out their side or of course the worst reason C.) Ignorance (go general public)                   But I do disagree someone playing the "Sn*per role" does not mean their team is already down one member. Provided the team understands how best to utilize the "Sn*per". Example simply being your typical ambush. Military tactics 101, the standard Bait and tackle. Though him/her being used this way does in fact not make him/her a "Sn*per" it makes that person an ambusher. It just falls back to the way the term loosely is tied to paintball. That is their purpose in paintball, to stealthily wait in position to ambush, or slowly advance to a flank to eliminate members at the right time. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2008 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by Spikee187 Spikee187 wrote:

Well I agree they are not very valid arguments.

Correct.

The 50/50 is just a rough average, on this topic it's not but this is also not an actual poll or vote. For the most part though the debate rages on due to people either A.) not caring (such as myself overall)

If you don't care, why do you seem to support the idea of snipers in paintball by continuing to attempt to justify the misuse of that specific terminology?  Actually, if you don't care why do you continue posting on the topic at all?  This post snippet from the first page of the thread may provide the answer:

Originally posted by Spikee187 Spikee187 wrote:

I like to "snipe" in shortest form of words . . .


B.) They feel strongly ab out their side or of course the worst reason C.) Ignorance (go general public)                   But I do disagree someone playing the "Sn*per role" does not mean their team is already down one member. Provided the team understands how best to utilize the "Sn*per". Example simply being your typical ambush. Military tactics 101, the standard Bait and tackle. Though him/her being used this way does in fact not make him/her a "Sn*per" it makes that person an ambusher.

The preceding argument just negated most of your other attempts to prove your point.  Additionally, in 23 years in the military, I don't ever recall a tactic called "Bait and tackle."

It just falls back to the way the term loosely is tied to paintball. That is their purpose in paintball, to stealthily wait in position to ambush, . . .

In which case they're ambushing, not sniping.

. . . or slowly advance to a flank to eliminate members at the right time.

In which case they are attacking, not sniping.  Also, this specific tactic is not a tactic used by snipers very often as it is generally not related to their mission.  (Snake and GuitarGuy can give you more info on that.)



Edited by Mack - 12 April 2008 at 6:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spikee187 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 April 2008 at 10:06am
I continue to post because I don't mind the use of the word. It is whether or not paintball snipers exist is what I don't care about. The use of the word is what I will argue, For convenience sake. As far as the "Bait and Tackle" goes, thats not the actual name but it's a term that basically is used to describe the tactic of someone remaining behind  concealed. Then other team members advance only to fall back leading the enemy right into his ambush.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 April 2008 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by Spikee187 Spikee187 wrote:

I continue to post because I don't mind the use of the word. It is whether or not paintball snipers exist is what I don't care about.

So . . . you are posting because you want to argue a point that you admit is incorrect.

The use of the word is what I will argue, For convenience sake.

Not actually all that convenient.  (As pointed out several times.)

As far as the "Bait and Tackle" goes, thats not the actual name but it's a term that basically is used to describe the tactic of someone remaining behind  concealed.

I was going to contradict you here, but I realized you beat me to it . . . and did it most effectively.  As a suggestion for future discussions, perhaps you should limit your argument to topics where you don't have to admit that you don't know what you're talking about while in the midst of trying to support your point.  For the amusement of others, I post the picture below:



Then other team members advance only to fall back leading the enemy right into his ambush.

It is a valid tactic and it can work.  However, as you admitted in a previous post, it is not sniping.  It's called an ambush.  It would be a more effective ambush if the roles were reversed.  Using a smaller force to lure the opposition into the fire of a larger concealed force with interlocking fields of fire, flank security established and possibly a pre-designated mobile element to sweep through laterally in coordination with the base of fire would eliminate much more of the opposition than a one-person ambush.



I'm going to restate your basic argument* in hopes that you see the error of your ways:

  • Current arguments:
    • Paintball snipers do not exist.
      • You say you aren't one and they don't exist.
      • You also claimed to "snipe" in an earlier post.
    • You are defending the use of the term "sniper" in paintball for convenience.
  • Abandoned arguments. 
    • ". . . to snipe basically means shooting at a difficult target
    • "A paintball sniper and a regular sniper have their differences and their similarities."  (The "they're the same but different" argument.)
    • The "everybody does it" (misuses the term) argument.
Given the complete absence of logical/factual support for your position and the number of self-defeating points (including admitting the non-existence of paintball snipers) you have provided, I have come to the conclusion that you continue to stubbornly argue this point for one of two reasons:
  • First Option:  You do, as indicated by an earlier post, consider yourself a paintball sniper.  You just lack the cojones to actually admit it on the forum and are trying to justify continuing to call yourself one based on more theoretical arguments. 
    • If it is that important to you, then continue to consider yourself special because you are a paintball sniper.  When you announce your position at the field, many others will probably consider you special as well.
    • Just don't expect us to accept unsupported/incorrect assertions at face value on this forum.
  • Second Option:  You are a troll and are just trying to be annoying.  (Based on the fact that you are continuing to argue a point you admit is wrong.)
    • A sub-class 4** troll to be accurate.
On the original topic; did you have a stock barrel with an adapter or are you going to have to purchase one?


*Color-coding added to highlight directly contradictory points.
**Ineffective, yet mildly amusing.


Edited by Mack - 13 April 2008 at 12:58pm
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