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Roll Tide View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roll Tide Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2008 at 1:32pm
It's 7. And the martyrdom perk ruins the game. G3 ftw. It sucks with the scope though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reifidom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2008 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by Roll Tide Roll Tide wrote:

It's 7. And the martyrdom perk ruins the game. G3 ftw. It sucks with the scope though.


Yeah, I tried the scope. Robs the weapon of all that close-up glory. Red-dot is just right.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2008 at 2:06pm
As for the chopper.

The way to do it is get it. Wait until you die and then let the chopper go. It will start another streak and you can do an airstrike while your chopper is up and get another chopper.
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reifidom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2008 at 2:07pm
But you do have to trigger it before you die right? It doesn't carry over to a new spawn does it? I've never tried.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2008 at 2:09pm
It carries over to the next spawn. I always thought it didn't.

If you do what I said, and die while it's in the air before you get another airstrike/heli then you won't get them.


Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2008 at 2:29pm
I'm gonna add something to the original conversation here.

Anyone seriously considering owning a firearm for the purpose of self defense NEEDS to buy or borrow a copy of On Combat and On Killing, both by Col. Dave Grossman. He'sa  doctor of psychology who is also a former U.S. Army Ranger, and ahs assembled what is generally considered the authoritative work on the psychology and physiology of deadly force situations. If you don't understand what can and probably will happen to your body and mind when you find yourself facing the prospect of using lethal force, you stand a much greater chance of being ineffective and not protecting what it is you need to protect- be it your home, your person, or your family.

Most people tend to eschew book knowledge for things like this, but these two books should be mandatory reading for anybody buying a gun. I've never yet met any member of the armed forces or any law enforcement officer who has read these books and doesn't think of highly of them as I do.

Both books for $36 from Amazon. Much more valuable than the equivalent cost in ammunition and accessories.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notXXscared Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2008 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by Rottergotterdam Rottergotterdam wrote:

Originally posted by  Rp Fr Rp Fr wrote:



QFT.

And #2, so why even bother with deep penetrating rounds? So you'd be fine with a loved one being shot, as long as they don't die? The pain and suffering they would endure isn't significant? And anyways, "stuff" happens. Why risk it? Because...uh, with a handgun, the only way to kill someone is to reach vital, blood-bearing organs and cause rapid blood loss (unless you hit them in the head, which you probably will not do with a handgun under those conditions)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's sort of the point with any gun, to produce bloodloss by striking or vital organ or shredding enough tissue to prevent blood from going to those vital organs.

And again, you're inside your house. Theres no need for deep penetrating rounds, especially when you consider how thin drywall is. You have no clue about what you are talking about, do you? Any bullet will penetrate drywall, from a soft-nose .22 to a 12 gauge (birdshot may not, but there are reported incidencts of birdshot not killing humans from point blank in the chest). In fact, a .22 will pierce 5-6 walls.
But a short pistol bullet without as much gunpowder as a rifle round is going to stop a lot quicker once it goes into someone.


[/QUOTE]Half of your arguments don't even make sense.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote X-51 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2008 at 5:50pm
The g3 is fine with iron sights, why they added the scopes is beyond me, I was wasting insurgents with it on single player.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rednekk98 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2008 at 5:59pm
I've had to wake up from a dead sleep, retrieve a firearm, and go shoot coyotes(once I only managed to don a towel, which I lost as I fired) on several occasions. Going from a sound sleep to dealing with a complicated situation involving your dog, your sister, and a coyote all within 20 feet of of each other is quite the mental load to bear 30 seconds after you were humping a supermodel in your dreams. Trying to load a shotgun while a bear is charging down a hill at you is about as scary of a situation I've come across in daylight. Combining adrenalin with confusion as one would in a home-invasion situation is a nightmare situation I hope never to encounter. Things have a way of going wrong when you dont expect to have to grab a gun, and stuff gets piled in front of the gun cabinet and flashlights dont get returned to the top of it. These things further complicate situations.

To be as safe as possible our home defense weapons will be loaded with ammunition that has a low probability of ricochet and over-penetration of wall material. Two  of our bedroom are on the second floor, one is in the basement, I'm not running away unless everyone is out of the house.

My first line of defense is my cell phone, which is always charged and within easy reach of my bed, my second is a 12 gauge, secured to my bed with a cable lock(keys are always within reach) behind my phone is one round of #4 plated turkey shot for coyotes or an intruder(unlikely) that I can drop straight in the breach, and five rounds of #4 buck further back on the shelf. I would choose a long gun in almost every circumstance since I have some knowledge of weapons retention with one, I do not know weapons retention techniques for pistols.

Home invasions are on the rise, and most of the reports of those crimes I have come across have been multiple intruders, usually armed with firearms. This may be because those types of crimes get more press, but that seems to be the trend. As stated, these tend to be in nicer areas with a ghetto close by. I've heard of more than one instance of apartments full of college students being targeted for supposed drugs and cash. When someone plans on doing a home invasion they look for people with money who aren't likely to defend themselves.

If I could afford an AR-15 I'd have one and a mag full of ballistic tips close to be bed instead of the shotgun. In the unlikely event I were to ever get into a gunfight with even two intruders with my shotgun I'd be lucky to empty it before getting killed. People forget to cycle the action on pumps shooting at deer for gods sake.

I'm no expert ninja. I have very basic self defense skills(MCMAP tan belt, meaning I could fight my way out of a wet paper bag) and a few firearms courses, including the very basic pistol course that would make me eligible for a CCW permit in this state. I think I'm just qualified enough to avoid shooting myself or an innocent. I still think a gun is the best option in a home-invasion situation. Your non-lethal options are calling the police, and a verbal warning that you are armed. I would think that would be sufficient. I've been tear gassed before and have heard mace is worse. CS sucks enough as it is. If you want to try that approach, get a can of bear mace and a military surplus gas mask or at least some goggles to keep it out of your eyes. You can don a gas mask in <10 seconds. Hang it from your bedpost. Kimber makes a version that is an irritant gel that looks to have promise. Mace wont stop everybody and may just make people angry and blind you in the process.

As for weapons mounted lights, train yourself to know the spread of the beam, you should not be pointing a firearm at something then identifying it. Shine it close enough to illuminate the thread. If I were to go with a pistol I'd have a small flashlight with an endcap switch handy, but not attached.
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Kayback View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 April 2008 at 6:44pm
Originally posted by notXXscared notXXscared wrote:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's sort of the point with any gun, to produce bloodloss by striking or vital organ or shredding enough tissue to prevent blood from going to those vital organs


True, but pistols are low powered rounds. They don't tear up the tissue as much as high powered rifle rounds do. They are more about poking holes into things than destroying organs. Rifles rip and tear and literally destroy tissue. Pistols don't.

Pistols with limited penetrating power might not reach said organs. A rough guide of 8-12 inches of penetration in ballistic gelatine is whats given as needed in the penetration department. This allows things like shooting through the badguys arms and still getting deep enough into the body to cause vital damage.

Things like Glasers are meant to be low penetration, low ricochet and meant to hit like a bomb. They don't. Something as simple as an arm in the wrong place and your Glaser is expended. A solid round would carry on through. True you have injured the target, but it most likely isn't enough to stop the attack.

Quote But a short pistol bullet without as much gunpowder as a rifle round is going to stop a lot quicker once it goes into someone.</span]
[/QUOTE]
No, actually. Pistol rounds can penetrate deeper than some rifle rounds. Especially if you are running frangible or hollow point rifle ammo. Drywall might not slow it down, but a .223 into a torso probably wont exit in one piece, or with enough energy to damage another person seriously. A 9x19mm is quite capable of making through and through shots. Longer rounds are actually less stable than the shorter rounds. When a round hits and the gyroscopic effect the rifling puts on it isn't in play any more, the heavier end will end up going forwards.

There is very little difference between the back end and the front end of a pistol round. Even if it does tumble, the side of the round is pretty similar to the front of the round. There is a vast difference in a rifle round, and this is generally why a rifle round will break up, if you are using the right ammo.

Taken from P&S News
Quote Average Penetration into Bare Gelatin:

.40 S&W, 180-grain Hollow Point         & nbsp;  16.0 inches

5.56mm, 55-grain ball         &n bsp;         &n bsp;  11.0 inches

12-gauge, 1 oz. Foster Slug (low recoil)   21.0 inches

Average Penetration Through Interior Wall into Bare Gelatin:

.40 S&W, 180-grain Hollow Point         & nbsp;   25.0 inches

5.56mm, 55-grain Ball         &n bsp;         &n bsp;  06.0 inches

12-gauge, 1 oz. Foster Slug (low recoil)    21.0 inches



The penetration for pistol JHP's AFTER hitting the wall is deeper yes. Drywall fills up the JHP's expansion hole, basically turning it into a FMJ or Round Nosed round.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2008 at 7:46pm
Originally posted by merc merc wrote:

front from the street... all the talk about preventive measures just got an image in my head and want to see how decked out your house really is.


I know it's a bit of a necro post, but ah well.

From the street.


From the driveway


Front door


Inside shot of the back yard


And house has a coulpe of these things giving movement detection over areas.


I forgot to get a pic of the window vibration alarms, but oh well.

Interestingly though I was lookin at the Box Of Truth stuff again and found this gem

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

Every thing that's been suggested on this topic so far penetrates all 4 walls. Except birdshot. But that might not stopt he badguy. I was wrong about the M193 round, like I said earlier that's probably because of my experience from housed made out of bricks and mortar.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phantomwes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2008 at 1:20am
Could have ended this in the 2nd post , Va. is not a right to carry state. You have to get a Concealed Handgun Permit to carry. and if an attacker has a melee weapon ie a knife , bat , sharp freakin spoon , and is within 10 ft. you can shoot him. Your prolly gonna get stabed though lol. I carry a Springfield armory .40 XD sub-compact with Powerball ammo , and i got a beretta .22 jetfire in the night stand , a ruger 10/22 behind the bed , both loaded with Quick shock ammo , and a .410 shot gun in the closet with good ol fashioned 00 Buckshot in it. All of this ammo if ever used to defend yourself is considered Lethal Ammo , so that looks bad on you , But as the saying goes , Id rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2008 at 1:42am
Kayback:

Protecting yourself from raptors or did you recently move to the ghettos of Somalia?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2008 at 2:15am
^^^ Somalian ghetto raptor zombie ninja pirates.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2008 at 10:09am

Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

Kayback:

Protecting yourself from raptors or did you recently move to the ghettos of Somalia?

That kind of setup, with walls and door/window grates, is standard in large parts of the world.  We North America types are spoiled that way.

I am actually surprised he doesn't have spikes on top of his wall.  He must live in a nice part of town.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2008 at 10:23am
Thanks Susan. Yeah it's typical for many places and like you said, i live in a good part of town. Most other houses have spikes, razor wire or electrified fencing on top of the walls.

IMHO those things aren't actually worth the expense, and they are overly ugly. I can live with a wall because it also adds to my privacy, but wire? No thanks.

However like I have said before, you can't end up inside my house by accident and you'd have to have gone to a lot of trouble getting in. In which case if you are inside and you are posing a threat I'll have no qualms pulling the trigger, I've done enough to keep you out. And because of our house construction I'd have no issues using a 223 or 30 carbine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ShortyBP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2008 at 10:23pm
Originally posted by phantomwes phantomwes wrote:

Could have ended this in the 2nd post , Va. is not a right to carry state. You have to get a Concealed Handgun Permit to carry.

Actually... no.

In VA, if you're 18 or over, you can OPEN carry... no permit required.

You need the CHP only for concealed carry.

Skipped the 13 pages prior to this... so won't bother jumping in on any of the discussion... but did feel the need to make this one correction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2008 at 10:25pm
Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

Kayback: Protecting yourself from raptors or did you recently move to the ghettos of Somalia?


That kind of setup, with walls and door/window grates,is standard in large parts of the world. We North America types are spoiled that way.


I am actually surprised he doesn't have spikes on top of his wall. He must live in a nice part of town.



Oh crap, I forgot that he actually does live in South Africa.

(I thought it was relatively safe?)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man Bites Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 April 2008 at 11:00pm
Originally posted by Kayback Kayback wrote:


However like I have said before, you can't end up inside my house by accident


Thus the disconnect between your situation and the advice you give, as compared to someone living in the United States.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kayback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 April 2008 at 3:11am
not really. All the stuff on my house is easily available and for sale in the states.

I honestly believe that anyone who wants lethal force as part of their inventory owes it to themselves to make it as hard as is reasonably possible for some stranger to get into their house. It'll cost a little more than just buying the first handgun you come across, but it will prevent things like accidently shooting the neighbour who came home too drunk to recognise his own house.

Like i said a handfull of pages ago when Susan said many owner in the states take a jump from not locking their doors to buying a gun and missing every step in between, that is both suprising and wrong. And i do not advocate that at all. Especially in states with castle laws and no retreat clauses you need to make damn sure that anyone inside your house can only have gotten there by being invited, or having gone to a lot of effort to circumvent your preventative measures.

I do admit that I am exposed to security concerns more than your average American or Canadian but that doesn't mean they can't reach the same conclusions and make the same purchases. It is a little out the box, but it is completely logical when you think about it. You want protection from people coming inside your house? Have you done anything to prevent them? Can you install another buffer layer the make unauthorired access harder? Have you got anything warning you is they do get in so they can't suprise you? Is there some method of alerting the authorities?

Once you've made it as reasonably hard as you can for a badguy to be there, then start working on what to do if they get there anyway. Is your weapon effective? Is it reliable? Is it easy to use under stress? Can you identify your target? What are the dangers of using that weapon in your house?

This is where i'll happily admit there is some seperation from my advice and guys living elsewhere where houses are constructed differently. Even though i know many US houses are aluminium siding and dry wall construction, very few South African homes are built like that. Most of my interior walls are single brick and mortar, while some load bearing ones and all external walls are double layer.

I try to make allowances for that when i suggest house defence guns, but like it was shown, i was mistaken about the 223,s performance though drywall. Of course the same website that proved me wrong also said most handgun rounds and some shotgun rounds did the same thing as the 223,s so it is down to personal taste. I'm more confident of hits and first round stops with a rifle over pistols and shotguns.

It is relatively safe where i live. Crime is not endemic like in some countries, nor as rife as in the low cost housing areas. However that does not mean it'll never happen. It just means when it does, you end up suprised by it. The violence in home invasions is on the rise globally and locally it has sky rocketed. If you have female members of your family, you can more or less expect them to be raped, you can more or less expect to be assaulted, there is a chance they'll try murder you and it is definate they'll steal all your stuff.

Now the CHANCES of this happening are low, but it is like winning the Lottery. Your chances are low but if it does happen it ALL happens. I'll hedge my bets thanks. People buy multiple Lottery tickets don't they? I'll take multiple precautions from preventative measures to active resistance.

Ps my damn hard drive crashed last night, so i'm using my phone again. Please excuse any bad typing, predictive text typo's and the like.
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