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carl_the_sniper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 March 2008 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:


Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:


Name me a law based solely on scientific quantaties and not on the current morals of society.

I'll wait...
It is illegal to disobey flight crew on an airplane. Doing so has the potential to cause in-flight emergencies, which threaten the lives of everybody on board. Considering that we're animals, whose bodies have evolve to progress the species, our purpose in life is to survive as a species. Killing fellow humans is detrimental to our survival, therefore killing people is wrong.


What about killing a serial killer in revenge?

Doing so would stop them from killing again and could save more people than it kills.

Scientifically, it is an easy choice. Therefore, scientifically and with no morals aside, vigilante justice should be legal.

But it is not. Why might this be?

Morals are why it is illegal. Morals dictate that everybody deserves a trial where the arrest is based on morals, the conviction is based on morals, and the sentencing is based on morals. Put scientifically, everyone who kills should get life in prison or death. Obviously, not everyone who kills deserves the death penalty of life in prison so that is where morals factor in.
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Tolgak View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 March 2008 at 7:08pm
I just answered your challenge. You wanted a law that can be interpreted entirely scientifically, I gave you one. I never stated my position

Even with your example, I can show a scientific basis. Vigilante justice has a higher chance of getting innocents killed. The more innocents killed, the more vigilantism, the more people die. The vicious cycle continues.

Here's the flaw in your argument. You're right that we need morals to prevent laws from being cruel. However, you're defining morals as if there's only one source. Humans created the idea of good and bad. Different humans have different ideas of good and bad.

The way we apply morals to law are through science (determining what happens when certain actions are done through observing), and consensus (voting on what actions are good or bad with the morals of individuals as part of the reason). We can also add tyranny (lone, powerful people/groups in the government determining what they think can be law without consensus or science), but we only have a few thousand laws based on that, so it's insignificant in this context.

Abortion hits a gray area in the consensus part of this process.  This is why you can't throw the word "moral" at us and expect the argument to stop. Science doesn't tell you what's good or bad, it just tells you what is. Science tells us when a fetus is capable of homeostasis if born. It's up to a majority to decide if we can call that point life or not. The problem is that there is no overwhelming group that will outnumber the others in opinion.
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carl_the_sniper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 March 2008 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:

I just answered your challenge. You wanted a law that can be interpreted entirely scientifically, I gave you one. I never stated my positionEven with your example, I can show a scientific basis. Vigilante justice has a higher chance of getting innocents killed. The more innocents killed, the more vigilantism, the more people die. The vicious cycle continues.Here's the flaw in your argument. You're right that we need morals to prevent laws from being cruel. However, you're defining morals as if there's only one source. Humans created the idea of good and bad. Different humans have different ideas of good and bad. The way we apply morals to law are through science (determining what happens when certain actions are done through observing), and consensus (voting on what actions are good or bad with the morals of individuals as part of the reason). We can also add tyranny (lone, powerful people/groups in the government determining what they think can be law without consensus or science), but we only have a few thousand laws based on that, so it's insignificant in this context.Abortion hits a gray area in the consensus part of this process.  This is why you can't throw the word "moral" at us and expect the argument to stop. Science doesn't tell you what's good or bad, it just tells you what is. Science tells us when a fetus is capable of homeostasis if born. It's up to a majority to decide if we can call that point life or not. The problem is that there is no overwhelming group that will outnumber the others in opinion.


I could be wrong but I think you just explained everything that i have been trying to say.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 March 2008 at 7:46pm
Except that you are implying that there is only one set of morals, which makes your argument much different than mine.
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carl_the_sniper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 March 2008 at 9:54pm
Originally posted by Tolgak Tolgak wrote:

Except that you are implying that there is only one set of morals, which makes your argument much different than mine.


What do you mean by that?

I think you are misunderstanding me.
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Gatyr View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 March 2008 at 9:59pm

Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

What do you mean by that?


That you are assuming you view on morality is the only one.



Edited by Gatyr - 14 March 2008 at 10:03pm
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carl_the_sniper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 March 2008 at 10:26pm
Originally posted by Gatyr Gatyr wrote:

Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

What do you mean by that?
That you are assuming you view on morality is the only one.



That was certainly not what I meant.

Can you point out where I did?

I am sorry if it sounded like that, because it wasen't meant that way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BooksAndLeaves Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 March 2008 at 1:16pm
You are a firefighter.

You're in a burning building and spot a newborn baby.

Next to it is a jar of 100 embryos.

You can only save one.

Which do you save?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 March 2008 at 4:25pm
Bland actually made a pretty good point.
"No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gatyr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 March 2008 at 10:45pm
Originally posted by BooksAndLeaves BooksAndLeaves wrote:

You are a firefighter.

You're in a burning building and spot a newborn baby.

Next to it is a jar of 100 embryos.

You can only save one.

Which do you save?


That is some DEEP ish. Did you come up with that or read it somewhere else?
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carl_the_sniper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 March 2008 at 11:32pm
Hmm... well i've never eaten embryo before...
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Tolgak View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tolgak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 March 2008 at 11:39pm
Sautee over a consistent flame until medium-well. Cook it with some tomato sauce, crushed garlic, and a little bit of mint. Serve with a fresh slice of cuban bread.

Where's tallen when you need him?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote impulse! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 March 2008 at 5:50am
Holy Jebus.I leave for a few days, and the thread is 7 pages long.
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