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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SSOK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 February 2008 at 6:33pm

BDU's, a vest, and boots do not make you milsim, IMO.

I wear BDU's, a vest, and boots for multiple reasons. BDU's  and boots because my local fields are nightmares with rocks, thorns, steep hills, and swampy conditions alike. Why do I wear a vest? Because I find it more comfortable.

I kinda tend to stay away from the milsim crowd because it is plagued by people with cheesy bolt on Tippmanns that believe in snipers and use poor tactics.

But people who have nicely done milsim markers (or hell, your typical speedball marker or even pump gun), and play the milsim game while acknologing the fact they're shooting .68 caliber gelatin filled spheres and not 7.62 lead rounds make the game great... (run-on sentence from hell)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote merc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 February 2008 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by Snake6 Snake6 wrote:


Originally posted by kungura kungura wrote:

don't let people tell you milsim and paintball don't mix. lets not forget many gvt forces use milsim and scenario paintball for training purposes.

Please tell me what section of the government uses scenario or milsim paintball as a primary training tool?


USMC for starters. they sold off a whole bunch of KP2s and PGPs a short while back. im sure they still use it as a training meathod. to what extent im not sure.

the US Army holds two large games a year at west point to help train new officers.

many local governments use paintball to train officers and swat.

with the newer milsim guns like RAP more and more law enforcement and military units are using paintball to train

(locally i know black water does at their NC location)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2008 at 3:31pm

I dont get why one segment of the sport feels it is ok to bash another. I personally prefer Woodsball/scenario/milsim to speedball, but dont take every opportunity to put down those that disagree. I agree with Judge about different settings, scenarios etc making it more interesting. While I will agree that not all Milsim add ons are necessarily functional, they do contribute to the realizm of the marker (gun) and thus add value, if only to make the owner feel more part of the game. Granted modifications to markers used in speedball seem to lean more towards pure function,  I don't see neon green paint, chrome and/or fade graphics adding to BPS or accuracy any more than adding a fake mag. However, adding barrel shrouds with mounting rails, scopes and some other accessories do in fact add function as well as to the "feel" of the marker. I have also noticed that a lot of Milsim guns featured in the marker galleries do have performance mods as well. However, since there seems to be more of a "one shot, one kill" mentality, these mods are as necessary as in speedball.

As for the contributing to a bad view of paintballing.. get real. The only people that get a negative impression of paintballing because of milsim are most likely anti war, anti gun and anti military to begin with and would have been offended by any sport where one person "shoots" at another regardless of whether they are wearing BDU's or a bright neon blue PB jersey. Probably the same people that came up with the idea that kids playing with toy guns is morally wrong as is keeping score in youth sports.

Finally adressing the 45 year old guys taking milsim way too seriously, keep in mind that those same guys are helping to keep the paintball industry going. If not in putting hundreds or thousands of dollars into their cheesy bolt on Tippmanns, than buying Shockers, Ions, and Dye jerseys for their unappreciative kids who spend way too much of their daddys money spraying paint all over the field rather than going out and getting a J.O.B.



Edited by oldpbnoob - 28 February 2008 at 3:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Commander_Cool Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2008 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I dont get why one segment of the sport feels it is ok to bash another. I personally prefer Woodsball/scenario/milsim to speedball, but dont take every opportunity to put down those that disagree. I agree with Judge about different settings, scenarios etc making it more interesting. While I will agree that not all Milsim add ons are necessarily functional, they do contribute to the realizm of the marker (gun) and thus add value, if only to make the owner feel more part of the game. Granted modifications to markers used in speedball seem to lean more towards pure function,  I don't see neon green paint, chrome and/or fade graphics adding to BPS or accuracy any more than adding a fake mag. However, adding barrel shrouds with mounting rails, scopes and some other accessories do in fact add function as well as to the "feel" of the marker. I have also noticed that a lot of Milsim guns featured in the marker galleries do have performance mods as well. However, since there seems to be more of a "one shot, one kill" mentality, these mods are as necessary as in speedball.

As for the contributing to a bad view of paintballing.. get real. The only people that get a negative impression of paintballing because of milsim are most likely anti war, anti gun and anti military to begin with and would have been offended by any sport where one person "shoots" at another regardless of whether they are wearing BDU's or a bright neon blue PB jersey. Probably the same people that came up with the idea that kids playing with toy guns is morally wrong as is keeping score in youth sports.

Finally adressing the 45 year old guys taking milsim way too seriously, keep in mind that those same guys are helping to keep the paintball industry going. If not in putting hundreds or thousands of dollars into their cheesy bolt on Tippmanns, than buying Shockers, Ions, and Dye jerseys for their unappreciative kids who spend way too much of their daddys money spraying paint all over the field rather than going out and getting a J.O.B.

Yeah, neither side should bash each other as long as people are enjoying what they are doing.

However all of the scopes, rail, and sights so not increase the performance or functionality of the marker. However if someone likes them, or thinks they look cool that is fine, I and most people do/ should not care.

In contrast to "speedball" markers though: the cosmetic upgrades on a speedball marker do not act as detrimentally as on a milsim oriented marker. As in gun colors, grips, etc do no add to the bulk of the marker. Of course if you like how your marker looks, or someone is happy with their markers appearance there is no reason why someone should have a superiority complex and unjustifiably bash how someones marker appears.

As for 45 year old milsim players... noone is bashing people that play milsim as a whole, or even that age range. It is being used as a stereotype for the type of player who spends tons of money on cosmetic upgrades and pretends they are in a war (which as you said it fine if they are happy, and tey invariably create a market for paintball companies). The problems with players such as these, and from my understanding happens to be the major gripe is that a nice segment of this group plays rec/ walk-on play and treats the game as if they are in the military,... poor sportsmanship and barking orders to other recreational players as if they are some sort squad leader.

When a person's role playing stats to negatively affect other players' experiences is when problems start amongst the milsim crowd (of course other paintball subcultures have their own stereotypical problems).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2008 at 5:36pm

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but arent rails for mounting things like scopes, lasers, flashlights etc. making them more useful/functional for Milsim? Wouldnt bright colors/chrome etc make markers and players more noticeable, and easier to spot, thus detrimental? Dont take this wrong, but some dude running across the field in a bright yellow jersey with a lime green mask with the sun glinting off his chrome shocker is going to be a lot easier to see than someone with camo in the forest carrying a matte black A-5.

As for issues with Milsim players playing rec ball. I agree that no one should necessarily be "barking orders". However, if there is a player in the group of open play that obviously has more experience, I would hope they would take a leading role and guide the newer, less experienced players. I would expect the same whether in the woods or on a speedball field. Organization is required in both forms of the sport to be effective and successful. Success and winning are the goal of both. Despite the prevalent psychology of the day... everyone is not a winner.

As far as poor sportsmanship, I have seen it in speedball just as much as in woodsball/milsim. In fact, I have been mocked or looked down upon in the past for using rental equipment and being a "noob" a heck of a lot more times by speedballers than by any other players. Guess now I'll be mocked for having a "milsim" gun and wearing camo instead of a cocker and a Dye jersey.

Funniest part about it is, I don't think I have ever seen a Woodsball/Milsim/Scenario player ever put down a Speedball player or insult their equipment on this forum. Can't say the other way around.

 



Edited by oldpbnoob - 28 February 2008 at 5:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Commander_Cool Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2008 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but arent rails for mounting things like scopes, lasers, flashlights etc. making them more useful/functional for Milsim? Wouldnt bright colors/chrome etc make markers and players more noticeable, and easier to spot, thus detrimental? Dont take this wrong, but some dude running across the field in a bright yellow jersey with a lime green mask with the sun glinting off his chrome shocker is going to be a lot easier to see than someone with camo in the forest carrying a matte black A-5.

As for issues with Milsim players playing rec ball. I agree that no one should necessarily be "barking orders". However, if there is a player in the group of open play that obviously has more experience, I would hope they would take a leading role and guide the newer, less experienced players. I would expect the same whether in the woods or on a speedball field. Organization is required in both forms of the sport to be effective and successful. Success and winning are the goal of both. Despite the prevalent psychology of the day... everyone is not a winner.

As far as poor sportsmanship, I have seen it in speedball just as much as in woodsball/milsim. In fact, I have been mocked or looked down upon in the past for using rental equipment and being a "noob" a heck of a lot more times by speedballers than by any other players. Guess now I'll be mocked for having a "milsim" gun and wearing camo instead of a cocker and a Dye jersey.

Funniest part about it is, I don't think I have ever seen a Woodsball/Milsim/Scenario player ever put down a Speedball player or insult their equipment on this forum. Can't say the other way around.

 

Ugh..

The point was that most of the things that you attach to rails are useless/ needless.

As for bright colors... not all "speedball" style equipment is brightly colored... but almost all milsim stuff is bulky. Additionally when you are engaging other players within the effective range of a paintball marker,... you can almost definitely see them. Even any reasonable amount of movement would be detected by any player being semi-vigilant since the distance is so close.

Now in a group of players would the player with bright gear stick out? ... yes.

Would brighter gear perhaps be more likely to draw the attention  of a player who is not paying attention? Perhaps.

However the effects of a brightly colored gun are marginal at best. What would ahve the greatest effect is a brightly color jersey, and still I garuntee you most people are not perceptive enough to notice someone sneaking along wearing a red jersey,... or if they do they are already watching X area and would have seen someone in BDU's as well.

As stated in my post not all people fall into the category... that it is simply a stereotype. Yet you feel the need to argue this? I garuntee you that there are some players that want to play army and try to bark orders. I also garuntee you some players have experience and are genuinely good leaders. the problem arises from people who are the first example... thinking that since they (& their friends) are so hardcore they automatically fall into category number 2. Also as I said there are other sterotypes for other types of players,... which are unrelated to this thread... so there is need to to be brought up.

Obviously winning is winning. However as a paying customer most people would rather lose than put up with a complete jerk all day. Actually even listening to the complete jerk you would probably lose. My comment wasn't about leaders... it was about people trying to be tyrants and NOT having a good dynamic... you sure are obtuse.

Only idiots mock others for their gear. I would lvoe to mock you for being an idiot and straying off point. People can use and should use w/e they want. However when people (mainly new players) come onto a forum asking for advise it is best to give them advise based upon practical considerations and not aesthetics.

People put down "speedball players" all the time on here. Alot of people have a "one shot, one kill" mentality and if anyone ones an electropnuematic marker they lack skill. I guess you just haven't read alot of threads on here then.

Why do you feel it is necassary to point out thingslike "speedball palyers mock other players more than woodsball players" when you say people shouldnt characterize, or critizise other players. Isn't using generalities like that yourself arrogant and hypocritical?

 

Oh and what do I typically play in... BDU's w/ a black to gray fade freestyle (although I do have a bright blue angel lcd I use from time to time). In my opinion using "speedball" markers with muted colors is the ebst option. It has the best performance, land light weight, without bright flashy colors that might make you a specifc target in a "fire fight, "gun battle" etc.



Edited by Commander_Cool - 28 February 2008 at 6:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TippmannBro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2008 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:



The trick to MILSIM to be both Practical and Tactical. To find a balance between the two so you don't make yourself obsolete when playing larger games.


BAM! Talk about hitting the nail on the head... this is a good one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2008 at 8:07pm

I honestly, don't beleive I have ever actually been referred to as obtuse or an idiot. Guess there is a first for both. I may have gotten off point a bit, but honestly, other than GForces post question and the first sentence of the first reply, arent most of the others as well? So I guess I'm not alone in my idiocracy. Yay, I love to be a conformist!

No one should have to deal with jerks all day regardless of which style of PB they prefer, especially at the prices we all have to pay. New players also shouldn't be subject to ridicule by more experienced players as it can turn off a potentional long time player that will continue to help support the industry. Neither should everyone feel a need to make the comment that Milsim or Speedball sucks everytime a simple question is asked.

Oh, and what do I wear? Green cargo pants from Old Navy, 10 year old Timberland hiking boots, and a $15.00 realtree camo shirt that my mother in law bought me on sale. At 6"1 and 245 pounds, there isnt enough como to hide me.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thejudge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2008 at 9:02pm
Honestly play how you want.  I have seen speedballers get mad at scenario/woodsballers just as much as the oher way around.  And yes the BDU's do make a difference.  I have had people hunting me and walk right by me just to get shot.  If you play in the woods then yes a bright marker can indeed make you MUCH more noticabe.  I have gotten a many a kills by seeing someone in bright neon (insert color).  As for the weight, yes it can add weight and no they do not help the performance of the marker but neither does custom milling, special paint jobs, graphics, etc.  Its all about prefference so play with what you like and if someone else doesnt like it then find them on the field and show them that you are just as good or better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 February 2008 at 11:58am
Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:

I don't see anything wrong with millsim really.

Except for the guys who take it WAY to seriously.

Like the 45 year old men at my field who show up every week in full cammo and the latest in opsgear additions that play the game exactly like a combat situation.


I agree here. Whats the fun of doing a WWII scenario without a few guys who have Thompson knock ups? I'm not saying it makes it more realistic, because we're a far cry from that, but it makes it more fun.

The whole 'negative stereotype' bit makes me laugh. The entire sport has a negative image thanks to a handful of miscreants who can shoot up anything, with any marker.

If someone wants to mod their marker to look like an M4, or an AK, so be it. Why in the hell is their spending money on that any different than the dolt who drops a wad of cash for a flashy anodizing job that doesn't serve to enhance the performance of his marker any?

Military Simulation is fine by me, Its not my cup of tea, I play scenario games with an un modified 68 carbine when its working. But, as long as you remember "Simulation" is part of the definition, you're in good shape. Getting too far into it makes you look like a moron army wanna be. Be a paintball player with the 'milsim' theme, and you won't have any problems. Be a gung-ho, "THIS IS WAR, KILL THE OTHER GUYS" and you suck.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 February 2008 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by Commander_Cool Commander_Cool wrote:

Only idiots mock others for their gear. I would lvoe to mock you for being an idiot and straying off point.


Did any one else see the unintentional humor here?

Specifically the parts below.

Originally posted by Commander_Cool Commander_Cool wrote:

Only idiots mock others . . . I would lvoe to mock you. . . .




Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:

Be a paintball player with the 'milsim' theme, and you won't have any problems. Be a gung-ho, "THIS IS WAR, KILL THE OTHER GUYS" and you suck.


QFT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Commander_Cool Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 February 2008 at 1:03pm

Yea,... except you had to edit my statement to truely make your point.

I said making fun of other people due to their possessions is stupid. To do so makes you can idiot, and that it is okay to make fun of people who are being stupid.

The poster I was commenting on talked about how people shouldn't be judged... and then at the end of every point added a jab at people that do not play milsim (which made him to a degree hypocritical). That whole dichotomy of is significantly more satirical than anything I have posted.



Edited by Commander_Cool - 29 February 2008 at 1:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 February 2008 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by Commander_Cool Commander_Cool wrote:

Yea,... except you had to edit my statement to truely make your point.

That's true . . . and it's why I showed both versions.

I said making fun of other people due to their possessions is stupid.

I agree with you on this.

To do so makes you can idiot, and that it is okay to make fun of people who are being stupid.

I agree with you on this to a certain extent.  If it is stupid because of just not knowing I usually try to help; if it what I consider "actively stupid" where the individual refuses help or is just being a butt, then they are fair game.

The poster I was commenting on talked about how people shouldn't be judged... and then at the end of every point added a jab at people that do not play milsim (which made him to a degree hypocritical).

I didn't take them as jabs, but upon review see how they could be taken that way.

That whole dichotomy of is significantly more satirical than anything I have posted.

Your's was much less subtle though.



My point was that I thought you made a fairly good point, then promptly ruined it in a fairly amusing way.
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I would have to agree with that analysis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 February 2008 at 2:45pm

None of my posts were meant as jabs, except for this one:  

Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

As for the contributing to a bad view of paintballing.. get real. The only people that get a negative impression of paintballing because of milsim are most likely anti war, anti gun and anti military to begin with and would have been offended by any sport where one person "shoots" at another regardless of whether they are wearing BDU's or a bright neon blue PB jersey. Probably the same people that came up with the idea that kids playing with toy guns is morally wrong as is keeping score in youth sports.

I hate touchy feely, everyone should be a winner crap.

I stand by my statements as all of them are based on my direct experiences. Perhaps, my mind will be changed the more I play. If they were taken as jabs, they were misinterpreted. At no time did I say Speedball sucks, or its stupid to chrome plate, anodize, paint, or make love to your gear. Truth be known, I think ALL TYPES of marker gear is cool. I am a "toy guy" and respect/admire anything shiny and mechanical. (much to my wifes disdain). I did however, state that I have been mocked by what I would classify as speedball players for both not making the correct moves and/or not having my own equipment. I did not say that their rudeness was representative of all Speedball players. Again, if you took it that way.. your bad.

I also will say that I find ANYONE that takes things too seriously amusing. Except for the elite few that are able to make a living at it, it is a game. Nothing more, nothing less. Oops, I have probably started another debate.. Crap, now I took a jab at some one.... Doh.!

Unfortunately at this point, we are all off point. Honestly, the question starting this post has been asked and answered and the rest of this is all irrelevant.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 February 2008 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by oldpbnoob oldpbnoob wrote:

I hate touchy feely, everyone should be a winner crap.

Ditto.  The problem with that "everybody wins, build self-esteem" stuff is that it has a tendency to produce people who have over-developed egos despite not actually having really accomplished anything.  It is not normally a pretty situation when these people finally encounter circumstances (such as real life) where they are actually expected to earn rewards by being productive/responsible.

Truth be known, I think ALL TYPES of marker gear is cool. I am a "toy guy" and respect/admire anything shiny and mechanical. (much to my wifes disdain).

I can relate.

I also will say that I find ANYONE that takes things too seriously amusing.

True. 

. . . the rest of this is all irrelevant.

Irrelevant is fun.



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Edited by Mack - 29 February 2008 at 3:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldpbnoob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 February 2008 at 3:13pm

One last thing:

Originally posted by Commander_Cool Commander_Cool wrote:

The poster I was commenting on talked about how people shouldn't be judged... and then at the end of every point added a jab at people that do not play milsim (which made him to a degree hypocritical).

Exactly where did I ever jab at people that don't play Milsim?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote a5Tpp789 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2008 at 7:51am
milsim is a waste of money
if you put 500 dollars into an A5 it is still an A5
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reb Cpl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2008 at 8:02am
Originally posted by a5Tpp789 a5Tpp789 wrote:

milsim is a waste of money


so are costly paint jobs, flashy jerseys, multiple cases of paint, and so on and so forth.

In fact, what we do is a hobby here fella. Hobbies are often a 'waste of money' we know it, but do it anyway. Its only the ignorant that take the jab at another's hobby without looking at his own and realizing that what he does, while it may be different than someone else's on the surface- ultimately amounts to the same thing.

Again, I am not a milsim player, but how the hell is spending money on something you enjoy a 'waste?'
 


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Points: 9815
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2008 at 11:19am
Originally posted by a5Tpp789 a5Tpp789 wrote:

I am a troll.


Fixed/translated.


Edited by Mack - 01 March 2008 at 11:20am
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