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Ceesman762 View Drop Down
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Time for a C-Section!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 12:43pm
450 meters?  with a 62 grain bullet? try 500 meters to qualify (Known Distance course USMC, prone position with a sling) and 600 for USMC divisional matches with current issue ammunition (prone with sling).  Please note USMC divisional matches, not NRA/CMP matches at Camp Perry. 9mm is safer in an urban enviroment, true, but so was the .38 caliber revolver that was originally carried by a patrolman. But that is totally off track as was my previous posting. I agree with you about the MP5 and a shotgun in the patrol car, but the average patrolman hits the range 2-4 times a year, certainly not enough to ensure bystanders won't get hit. They would need extensive and frequent training to use both effectively and safely. Full auto on the MP5 or semi only for that one in the car?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:14pm
mp5s seem perfect


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by Ceesman762 Ceesman762 wrote:

and from experience, shooting at ranges both public and private, Police Officers are the worse firearm safety violators.



The law enforcement officers that I know are 180* of this claim. They're some of the safest people to be around when shooting. Why? because they're trained to be. I've never seen any of the numerous officers that I  know and have shot with commit a safety violation..........

Of course, the majority of the ones I know are firearms instructors/gunsmiths with the NYPD.

But I do know a bunch of regular beat cops whom I've shot with, and I've never observed them being stupid with a firearm. They've got a pretty good handle on the fact that if they eff up, someone could die.

Also from personal experience, I don't know what all the ruckus is about an MP5. I hated it.







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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by Reb Cpl Reb Cpl wrote:


I don't know what all the ruckus is about an MP5. I hated it.




It all began with this SAS raid into an Embassy...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:47pm
Thats quite an optic system for a little 9mm nail gun. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:57pm
that's an old school red dot. Back in the 1980's
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:

that's an old school red dot. Back in the 1980's


My mistake. I was in grammar school in the 80's.




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 2:12pm
As was I. I was in Kindergarden in 1980.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 2:14pm
LOL @ the old farts
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:

As was I. I was in Kindergarden in 1980.


'89 for me.

lol @ babies.




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by Ceesman762 Ceesman762 wrote:

450 meters?  with a 62 grain bullet? try 500 meters to qualify (Known Distance course USMC, prone position with a sling) and 600 for USMC divisional matches with current issue ammunition (prone with sling). 

Correction noted; I was using information for the M16 with old ammunition (M193 I believe).  The M4 with the new ammunition (M855) is rated at a max effective range of 500 meters for point and 600 meters for area targets.

Full auto on the MP5 or semi only for that one in the car?

Tough question.  I would have to say semi-auto.  The military used to have a device that limited M16s to semi-auto for use in riot control situations.  (I can't remember the terminology for it unfortunately.)   I have no idea if something like that could be designed for the MP5.  If it could, that would be my suggestion.


Edited by Mack - 14 February 2008 at 2:35pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by Mack Mack wrote:



Originally posted by Ceesman762 Ceesman762 wrote:

450 meters? with a 62 grain bullet? try 500 meters to qualify (Known Distance course USMC, prone position with a sling)and 600 for USMC divisional matches with current issue ammunition (prone with sling). <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">Correction noted; I was using information for the M16 with old ammunition (M193 I believe). The M4 with the new ammunition (M855) is rated at a max effective range of 500 meters for point and 600 meters for area targets.</span>Full auto on the MP5 or semi only for that one in the car?<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">Tough question. I would have to say semi-auto. The military used to have a device that limited M16s to semi-auto for use in riot control situations. (I can't remember the terminology for it unfortunately.) I have no idea if something like that could be designed for the MP5. If it could, that would be my suggestion.</span>


The Selctor switch. It does have "Safe, Semi and Full Auto" on the Navy Trigger groups. Standard HK trigger groups have Safe and Semi or white S & red F.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 3:44pm
I was 3 in 89.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by ShortyBP ShortyBP wrote:

Originally posted by Dye Playa Dye Playa wrote:

And shorty, what kind of gun is that, and how much?

GSG-5. You should be seeing more of them in the coming months, for under five bills.



Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:


-Rifles: 5 rounds max (excluding bolt action firearms which have no restrictions)

So this is to include rimfire rifles (22LR)?

If so... you MIGHT still be in luck should you want one... as the manufacturer makes 2rd magazines (I guess for export to some countries where there is such a limit). But that kinda takes a lot of the fun out of the equation.


It doesn't matter. Like I said, the MP5 family is prohibited.
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Ceesman762 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 4:45pm

Now I feel old, I did Corps time from 87 until 92.

"Of course, the majority of the ones I know are firearms instructors/gunsmiths with the NYPD."

We may know some of the same people.  My father was a cop at the 40th in the South Bronx.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 5:46pm
its too powerful?? haha it shoots near the same bullet as the M9's or 92FS's that most of them carry, its a 9mm Luger, possibly to least powerful round i know of besides a .22. Most Sub-machine guns shoot pistol rounds.

i say let them have them.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 6:53pm
An MP-5 with a safe/semi trigger group seems like it might be a good idea. For the ranges they are most likely to be used at, practical accuracy is going to be close enough. The MP-5 probably handles a bit better, but a lot of cops might be ex-military and have already had time on the M-16/M-4. A 5.56mm round is going to have much worse wound potential at that range should an unintended target be hit, however, a 5.56mm with the correct ammunition may actually be less likely to penetrate building material due to fragmentation. Whatever the choice, either would be more accurate than a pistol.

A Beretta Storm carbine would be more economical than semi-auto MP-5's if you want a 9mm or .40 carbine. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by Cyberdemon Cyberdemon wrote:

mp5s seem perfect


Thanks for that insightful and well-thought comment.

Regardless of whether or not MP5s suite the needs of policemen (I think the AR15s are fine), the fact remains that MP5s are expensive and scarce. Too expensive and scarce to equip an entire police force.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 7:57pm
Originally posted by rednekk98 rednekk98 wrote:

A Beretta Storm carbine would be more economical than semi-auto MP-5's if you want a 9mm or .40 carbine.
Beretta Storm, Ruger PC9/PC40... there are a slew of pistol caliber carbines out there... but they don't have the proven track record of the HK.
Since ARs keep getting mentioned as well... there are always 9mm/40cal AR carbines out there in use.
But all (except maybe the Ruger) still carry the stigma of being too "militaristic"... so the same problems encountered exist.

Originally posted by  Rp Fr Rp Fr wrote:


the fact remains that MP5s are expensive and scarce. Too expensive and scarce to equip an entire police force.
But no one's talking about equipping an entire police force. The argument is that the departments don't need ANY, and that's to include even a small number for Tac teams.
And with so many departments trading in HKs for ARs, and the availability of newer UMPs, there's actually no shortage of HKs whatsoever. Cost may still be a factor... but LEO price for these weapons is far less than market price for civies. They're still expensive... but not exhorbantly expensive when side-by-side to comparitive systems.

Edited by ShortyBP - 14 February 2008 at 8:00pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 10:51pm
Here's a few thoughts on the AR vs MP debate that seems to be coming back up.

Primarily, it is far easier for police to procure hollow-point and blue-tip rounds (energy dispersal rounds) in a pistol caliber that will keep them from shooting through walls with deadly force than getting a long-rifle round that will do the same.

Secondly, aiming an AR takes more practice, even for medium range combat situations. My girlfriend could put 90% of the rounds in the 10 ring at 50' with an MP-5, and she's only fire 1 round in her life. The MP-5 is inherently easier to be accurate with due to it's set up and low-recoil. Lack of muzzle rise also contributes to it's stability as a close to medium range weapon system. The argument brought up earlier about police only making it to the range 2-4 times a year works counter to the AR argument considering this.

Thirdly, the vast majority of situations where a weapon of greater capability than the standard-issue side-arm is needed tend to be close-combat situations, be it dealing with a school/bank shooting situation, or more commonly serving a warrant or performing a raid on a domicile. The length of the AR series in that situation is counter-productive. The compact size of the MP-5, or any other sub machine gun for that matter, makes it much more ideal for entry situations and close-to-medium quarters combat.
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