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pb125 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2008 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by pb125 pb125 wrote:

So can you explain why suburban cops need MP5's?Please?


Columbine?


Wouldn't swat get called in for a massive school shooting?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2008 at 10:45pm
Don't they already have AR15's? And if anyone happens to know, whats the price difference between AR15s and MP5s?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2008 at 10:45pm
Why wait for swat when the cops might already be there with whats needed to possibly save kids from the shooters ?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2008 at 10:45pm
Originally posted by pb125 pb125 wrote:


Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by pb125 pb125 wrote:

So can you explain why suburban cops need MP5's?Please?


Columbine?
Wouldn't swat get called in for a massive school shooting?


Not all SWAT officers are full time SWAT, they are patrol and so they have to carry their gear in their cruiser.

And in a situation like that, you don't have time to dilly dally waiting for your whole team to arrive. You have to act fast if active shooting is taking place.

Edited by Linus - 13 February 2008 at 10:46pm

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2008 at 10:46pm
Originally posted by Belt #2 Belt #2 wrote:

Anyone that says the MP5 is "over powered" needs to pull thier politically correct head out of thier rear. If you do some actual ligimate research...
Belt... these are the same folk that think a 30rd magazine will by default, kill schoolchildren and puppies on a whim, complete on it's own... without any weapon or user.
They talk about my AR15 as if it were a "machine gun". They cried foul when the Assault Weapon Ban sunset came, because now people can buy automatic weapons.

They don't have a clue about firearms. Nor do they care. You can tell them til your blue in the face, that the MP5 shoots pistol-caliber rounds... but they'll still think it's capable of shooting a skyscraper in half (without reloading).

Fact of the matter is... they don't like GUNS, period.
And they dislike "Scary" guns, like the ones they see in movies, even more.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2008 at 10:46pm
Originally posted by  Rp Fr Rp Fr wrote:

Don't they already have AR15's? And if anyone happens to know, whats the price difference between AR15s and MP5s?



Wayyyy different. A full auto MP5 is in the thousands. A nice AR could be had for $1000
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2008 at 10:47pm
You must have missed the article about a NJ police force that also lost 2 mp5s. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2008 at 10:49pm
Originally posted by pb125 pb125 wrote:


Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by pb125 pb125 wrote:

So can you explain why suburban cops need MP5's?Please?

Columbine?
Wouldn't swat get called in for a massive school shooting?

And what is Wayne NJs SWAT team supposed to use?

Apparently NOT MP5s.

The opinion does not say that suburban cops shouldn't have MP5s, except for SWAT.
It says suburban cops shouldn't have MP5s. Period.
(That includes any kind of tactical team)

Because why would a safe, suburban town need a tactical team anyway right?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2008 at 10:50pm
Originally posted by .357 Magnum .357 Magnum wrote:

Originally posted by  Rp Fr Rp Fr wrote:

Don't they already have AR15's? And if anyone happens to know, whats the price difference between AR15s and MP5s?



Wayyyy different. A full auto MP5 is in the thousands. A nice AR could be had for $1000


Considering many cops already have AR15s, I don't see why they should spend all the extra cash to upgrade to MP5s. AR15s work fine, and very rarely are they ever used.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2008 at 10:51pm
Originally posted by ShortyBP ShortyBP wrote:

Originally posted by pb125 pb125 wrote:


Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by pb125 pb125 wrote:

So can you explain why suburban cops need MP5's?Please?

Columbine?
Wouldn't swat get called in for a massive school shooting?

And what is Wayne NJs SWAT team supposed to use?

Apparently NOT MP5s.

The opinion does not say that suburban cops shouldn't have MP5s, except for SWAT.
It says suburban cops shouldn't have MP5s. Period.
(That includes any kind of tactical team)

Because why would a safe, suburban town need a tactical team anyway right?


I'm pretty sure they aren't trying to take away MP5's from SWAT.....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2008 at 10:52pm
Originally posted by evillepaintball evillepaintball wrote:

Originally posted by pb125 pb125 wrote:

So can you explain why suburban cops need MP5's?

Please?


North hollywood


Dude, North Hollywood is so ghetto. Not suburban at all. I hate driving through there.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2008 at 10:53pm
it could still happen anywhere
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2008 at 10:56pm

Originally posted by Dye Playa Dye Playa wrote:

A 7mm bullet is still going to drop someone no problem, and it's going to do it more accurately and at a much greater distance than a shotgun. For cops, shotguns have to be the most useless and unpractical weapon, why they carry them is beyond me.

Uh... no...

Two words: "Riot Control"

Shotguns are amoung some of the most flexable weapons out there, and (I'm sorry to say that you're wrong on this) extremely practical given the right situation.

Anything from buckshot, birdshot, bean bags, rifled and smoothed bored slugs and sabots, door breeching rounds, rubber "riot rings," Smoke and tear gas grenade launchers, hell... mossberg even makes a 3 or 4 prong climbing hook with a spool of steel cable for climbing purposes. You can even shoot rock salt out of a scatter-gun (usually less-lethal, but painful as anything can be - aside from an actual bullet) If you can fit it into the chamber and fire it with out damaging the barrel or mechanism, chances are it will work in a shotgun (maybe not always effectively, but hey)

Targets can be accurately engaged from suprisingly long distances with a rifled, saboted slug. If you know what you're doing, a slug's accuracy at 150-175 yds or less, can rival that of most off the shelf rifles.

Shotguns are very practical for most situations, if you ask me, but not all. You'll still need the good old 300 Win Mag for the determined fighters at long ranges, or when shot placement matters.

There are a very large number of purpose-built shotguns out there that get the job done very well, but there is just no replacing the medium and high powered rifle category; that's one thing I can aagree on.

I'm not bashing your post, just rambling on.



Edited by Belt #2 - 13 February 2008 at 11:00pm
Most importantly - People suck.
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Hysteria View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2008 at 10:57pm
Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Columbine?


LOL, right, because an MP5 could have stopped Columbine.  The kids marched through their school killing what ever the pleased, unopposed.  A cop with a pistol could have, and eventually did, stop the kids.  Again, I assume if the cops had MP5s at VT, that could have been stopped too?  Before or after the two hour hiatus in shooting?

Originally posted by ShortyBP ShortyBP wrote:


They don't have a clue about firearms. Nor do they care. You can tell them til your blue in the face, that the MP5 shoots pistol-caliber rounds... but they'll still think it's capable of shooting a skyscraper in half (without reloading).


So essentially, it is a very, very fast shooting, very large, pistol (drastically oversimplified).  Now, what is one reason CCWs are bad?  Because people are liable to miss and hit bystanders.  What is a fully automatic gun that jumps around moderately bad likely to do in a very populated major city?  Perhaps hit bystanders?

Also, anyone want to care to explain why they need camo?


Edited by Hysteria - 13 February 2008 at 10:59pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2008 at 10:59pm
Originally posted by pb125 pb125 wrote:


I'm pretty sure they aren't trying to take away MP5's from SWAT.....

I'm pretty sure they are. At least in this instance.

No standard patrolman in a NJ town is gonna have an MP5 as their long-gun. It's fiscally stupid, and given it's specialized use... just a poor choice. If you give a patrolman a long gun... it's either a shotgun, or a SEMI-auto rifle.

As a standard-issue long-gun, an MP5 is a terrible choice. It offers little advantage over a handgun aside from rate of fire and a slight bit of accuracy. It's use is best limited for certain tactical engagements. In fact, most departments are already ditching their MP5s in favor of 5.56 platforms (M4/AR)
But that said... this is a specialized weapon, for tactical use. Wayne's only use for this weapon, would be with a tactical unit. But as the columnist stated... it's NJ, not Baghdad. Such a weapon is not necessary for the police (even SWAT) and is best left to Navy SEALs and SAS.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2008 at 11:06pm
Originally posted by ShortyBP ShortyBP wrote:

Originally posted by pb125 pb125 wrote:


I'm pretty sure they aren't trying to take away MP5's from SWAT.....

I'm pretty sure they are. At least in this instance.

No standard patrolman in a NJ town is gonna have an MP5 as their long-gun. It's fiscally stupid, and given it's specialized use... just a poor choice. If you give a patrolman a long gun... it's either a shotgun, or a SEMI-auto rifle.

As a standard-issue long-gun, an MP5 is a terrible choice. It offers little advantage over a handgun aside from rate of fire and a slight bit of accuracy. It's use is best limited for certain tactical engagements. In fact, most departments are already ditching their MP5s in favor of 5.56 platforms (M4/AR)
But that said... this is a specialized weapon, for tactical use. Wayne's only use for this weapon, would be with a tactical unit. But as the columnist stated... it's NJ, not Baghdad. Such a weapon is not necessary for the police (even SWAT) and is best left to Navy SEALs and SAS.


Agreed. MP5s are too scarce and too expensive for police to be using. Stick with AR15s and the like.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2008 at 11:07pm
Originally posted by pb125 pb125 wrote:


Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by pb125 pb125 wrote:

So can you explain why suburban cops need MP5's?Please?


Columbine?
Wouldn't swat get called in for a massive school shooting?


No, since all the recent school shootings, it is now made so that the first cop at the scene enters the school no matter who they are.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2008 at 11:07pm
Originally posted by Hysteria Hysteria wrote:


LOL, right, because an MP5 could have stopped Columbine... I assume if the cops had MP5s at VT, that could have been stopped too? Before or after the two hour hiatus in shooting?

Regardless of gun-type... a weapon platform in itself is not going to PREVENT a crime from happening. But a weapon such as an MP5 does give police an advantage in certain situations. The MP5 has been used with great success by many police agencies around the world... and was made as popular as it is, when SAS stormed the Iranian Embassy in London during a hostage situation.

Originally posted by Hysteria Hysteria wrote:

So essentially, it is a very, very fast shooting, very large, pistol (drastically oversimplified). Now, what is one reason CCWs are bad? Because people are liable to miss and hit bystanders. What is a fully automatic gun that jumps around moderately bad likely to do in a very populated major city? Perhaps hit bystanders?Also, anyone want to care to explain why they need camo?

Why do they NEED camo? They probably don't. A standard OD or solid blue/gray might do the job. Camo might certainly provide some benefits depending on the terrain. We're talking surburbia with trees and grass and such... not a completely urban landscape. Camouflage does still provide some bennies.

As for full-auto going on a rampage and killing hundreds of innocent bystanders... the MP5 has been in use since the 70s. I don't recall reading a whole slew of news stories complaining about errant MP5 bursts.
Despite the negative image... police officers who would be issued such a weapon have gone through extensive training, and scenes like you see in the movies with someone holding down the trigger while sweeping back and forth, is not what happens in real life.

Full-auto is a concern for many departments though. Which is why a lot of departments choose SEMI-auto only. To include semi-auto MP5s (and ARs). Virginia State Police are issued M4s... semi-only.

Edited by ShortyBP - 13 February 2008 at 11:08pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2008 at 11:09pm

I think Hysteria hit on one major concern of mine here.  In my experience, all too many cops don't spend enough time at the range as it is, and they mostly shoot "easy" weapons like 9mm semi-autos.

Any full auto weapon, even a cute widdle one like an MP5, requires special training and lots of it in order for the shooter to be actually useful, let alone not dangerous to lots of bystanders.

I'm ok with the gun-loving cops having whatever toys they want, but it makes me a little uneasy to consider your average undertrained beat cop carrying a full auto weapon of any kind.  AR15s seem to be a good compromise.  More firepower when needed, without adding unnecessary danger to random passers-by.

"No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 February 2008 at 11:13pm
Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

Any full auto weapon, even a cute widdle one like an MP5, requires special training and lots of it in order for the shooter to be actually useful, let alone not dangerous to lots of bystanders
I certainly won't argue with that concern... I'd like to think that any full-auto weapon would only be used by a tac-team of sorts... and that given the nature of a tac-team, each user would have rather extensive training and range-time.
Perhaps a bit idealistic, in regards to some departments.
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