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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:14pm
mp5s seem perfect


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 12:43pm
450 meters?  with a 62 grain bullet? try 500 meters to qualify (Known Distance course USMC, prone position with a sling) and 600 for USMC divisional matches with current issue ammunition (prone with sling).  Please note USMC divisional matches, not NRA/CMP matches at Camp Perry. 9mm is safer in an urban enviroment, true, but so was the .38 caliber revolver that was originally carried by a patrolman. But that is totally off track as was my previous posting. I agree with you about the MP5 and a shotgun in the patrol car, but the average patrolman hits the range 2-4 times a year, certainly not enough to ensure bystanders won't get hit. They would need extensive and frequent training to use both effectively and safely. Full auto on the MP5 or semi only for that one in the car?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 11:25am
Originally posted by Ceesman762 Ceesman762 wrote:

A 9mm will go through sheet rock and plywood walls with ease.

No one said it wouldn't.  The discussion was the ballistic capabilities of the 9mm round compared to the 5.56 round.  My point was that the 9mm round was safer to use (for potential bystanders) in an urban situation.

  • The average muzzle energy measurement for the 9mm rounds used by the MP5 varies from the low 400s to the mid-500s depending upon both the specific ammo brand and the weapon it is fired from.  (Normally, submachine guns get better ballistic performance out of pistol rounds than pistols do.)  The average muzzle energy measurement for 5.56 rounds is at least double that depending upon the same factors.
  • The maximum effective range for a 9mm round fired from an MP5 is 100 meters.  (50 meters if fired from a pistol.)  The minimum max effective range for 5.56 rounds is 450 meters.
  • The muzzle velocity of a 9mm fired from the M9 pistol is approximately 350 m/s; the same round fired from a HK MP5A4 exits the muzzle at about 400 m/s.  In contrast 5.56 round fired from an M4 has a muzzle velocity of about 850 m/s.

So will 12/20/.410 ga buckshot.

The range of buckshot is dependent upon several factors and varies from weapon to weapon.  As an example, the USMC considers the maximum effective range of their 12 gauge issue shotguns to be 47 meters using double-ought buck.  Beyond this point the spread of the shot pattern combined with the loss of ballistic energy is considered to render them ineffective

and from experience, shooting at ranges both public and private, Police Officers are the worse firearm safety violators.

That's nice, but irrelevant as everyone has different experiences.



All things considered, I'd rather have general police forces armed/trained on the MP5 with one of those in the trunk as opposed to a 5.56 rifle.  The ballistic characteristics of the 9mm round have the potential to mitigate/reduce the potential consequences of any errors or unfortunate occurrences during tactical situations.

Edited Note:  DeTrevni, there better be pics when you're done.

Second Edited Note:  (Back on the original topic.)  I do believe there is a place in law enforcement for AR15 type weapons.  However, that place is not in every cruiser; it is with the SWAT teams.  A shotgun locked in the front seat and a MP5 secured in the trunk with two officers trained on both provides very good additional firepower:  Close range instant take down and area target engagement capability from the shotgun and the ability to deliver longer range fire than the pistol with more precision than the shotgun from the MP5.


Edited by Mack - 14 February 2008 at 11:34am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 10:46am
I believe that gay marriage should be between a man and a women.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 10:30am

A 9mm will go through sheet rock and plywood walls with ease.

So will 12/20/.410 ga buckshot.

and from experience, shooting at ranges both public and private, Police Officers are the worse firearm safety violators.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 9:01am
This article is probably in response to the submachine gun that was declared missing from the Wayne Police Department.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 6:37am
Originally posted by Dye Playa Dye Playa wrote:

And shorty, what kind of gun is that, and how much?

GSG-5. You should be seeing more of them in the coming months, for under five bills.



Originally posted by carl_the_sniper carl_the_sniper wrote:


-Rifles: 5 rounds max (excluding bolt action firearms which have no restrictions)

So this is to include rimfire rifles (22LR)?

If so... you MIGHT still be in luck should you want one... as the manufacturer makes 2rd magazines (I guess for export to some countries where there is such a limit). But that kinda takes a lot of the fun out of the equation.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 2:02am
Concurring with GI up there, I'm skipping back to the original subject matter...

People are idiots. The 9mm round is perfect for police officers in urban enviorments. You have a weapon that's smaller than an AR, and won't easily penetrate walls.

Honestly-it's a goddamn 9mm. Just because it looks cool and shoots fast, means nothing. The average street thug with a cut off SKS has ten times the power in his hands than an officer does with an MP-5.

What makes the MP-5 so lethal for law enforcement is the accuracy. Even on full auto the MP-5 is an insanely accurate gun....so hmm, incredibly accurate, compact, doesn't penetrate like a rifle round...

Sorry if I've restated other people's facts, didn't have time to thoroughly read through all 4 pages.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:29am
only read the first page and figured here's my two cents. in Rockland county, NY, every other (literally) RMP has either a shotgun or an M16 (or a varient). they have proven to been useful. if you don't believe me, look up cathy bodien (sp?) linked with the brinks robbery in the 80s. since then, every or every other car has a highly lethal weapon holstered in the passenger front
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:28am
I've never been big on purples to be quite honest. Plus, I LOVE convertible (no sight rail) Rippers. And mine won't be drilled for eyes. An Osiris doesn't need them.
Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:26am
i really liked the colors on the first one for some reason.

Though I am sure yours will be sweet
Que pasa?


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:18am
Will be. I'm having a blank WGP body milled like that. Mine will be FAR sexier though. 

Mine will look closer to this:



Except it will be an Osiris.


Edited by DeTrevni - 14 February 2008 at 1:22am
Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:14am
That's an amzing gun.

Is it yours?
Que pasa?


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:12am
Well I was trying to make a bullpup stock for it, but I couldn't get the design right. It was always just too big to bother. So I gave up and just started going a different direction. You can see what I've been doing in the marker gallery.

Plus, now I'm working on getting this:



Rippers = sexy.
Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:06am
Originally posted by DeTrevni DeTrevni wrote:

What, the E-Bolt project? Well, for a while I was debating making a cool stock for it. Never designed one though.


Yeah, that was it!  I don't know why I equated that to an AK or what have you. 

So what made you stop?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 1:04am
What, the E-Bolt project? Well, for a while I was debating making a cool stock for it. Never designed one though.
Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 12:49am
I don't think it was that long ago.  You mentioned it in chat too.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 12:34am
Maybe a long while ago. But I honestly can't remember what it was...
Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 12:31am

Originally posted by pb125 pb125 wrote:

Originally posted by Linus Linus wrote:

Originally posted by pb125 pb125 wrote:

So can you explain why suburban cops need MP5's?Please?


Columbine?


Wouldn't swat get called in for a massive school shooting?

Waiting for a SWAT team is what led to the majority of the deaths at Columbine.  There was almost a 2 hour delay between the firing of the first shots (11:19) and the SWAT team arriving and entering the building (1:09).  The “library massacre” started at 11:29 and did not conclude until 11:42.  Theoretically, first responding officers with the proper weapons/training could have intervened at some point during this situation.

For those advocating the use of M16s/AR15s rather than MP5s it should be pointed out that the ballistic characteristics of the 5.56 assault rifle round make it much more dangerous to both victims and innocent bystanders than the 9mm pistol round used by the MP5.  The velocity of the round creates a shockwave which causes significantly more tissue damage when passing through flesh.  Additionally, the 5.56 round is much more likely to go through an intended target or some other obstruction and retain sufficient kinetic energy to remain dangerous.  The MP5, if issued to law enforcement, should be considered an intermediate escalation step that would be used before an AR15 based weapon.

Originally posted by pepprdog pepprdog wrote:

That's what the second amendment is all about...being able to protect your country, your family and yourself with a firearm.

Actually the second amendment is about the ultimate right of veto remaining in the hands of the citizens when faced with an unresponsive/tyrannical government.  (Just like in 1776.)

Originally posted by Dye Playa Dye Playa wrote:

For cops, shotguns have to be the most useless and unpractical weapon, why they carry them is beyond me.

Shotguns are popular among police forces for several reasons besides the versatility that someone mentioned previously.  A shotgun loaded with buckshot is an outstanding weapon to have on an entry team in a tactical situation.  It can be used to open most doors simply by blowing the lock into the next room. (Note: this practice has become much less common due to both concerns of accidentally shooting someone and because easier ways of opening doors have become available.)  At close ranges it can deliver a devastating hit with minimal time required to aim.  Also, the pellet spread at longer ranges decreases the danger to innocent bystanders who might be downrange from a shooting situation.  (While the spread increases the odds of a hit, the potential damage from each individual pellet is less than that from most pistol rounds and all assault rifle rounds.)

Originally posted by Hysteria Hysteria wrote:

A cop with a pistol could have, and eventually did, stop the kids.


Wrong.  They committed suicide.   There was a police presence outside the school by 11:26 but due to arming/training issues entering the school was delayed until the arrival of SWAT which, as pointed out above, was significantly later.

Edited by Mack - 14 February 2008 at 1:03am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 12:27am
Originally posted by Hysteria Hysteria wrote:

Originally posted by DeTrevni DeTrevni wrote:

I can't recall attempting anything milsim. Not really my forte. And Skillet, still working on the Ripper.


Are you 100% positive?  I could almost swear that was you!


Yeah, I remember that too I think.
Que pasa?


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