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Alright, let’s talk stimulus!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Picasso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 January 2008 at 9:29pm

Blaming this on politicians, and former presidents is ludicrous.

  How about all the idiots who cannot manage their personal finances, spend beyond their limits, demand wages so high that the products they produce cannot be exported due to their high costs and rack up credit card debt like there is no tomorrow?

  You wil also find people blaming credit card compaines and banks for giving out loans, retail compaines for selling big screen TVs, car dealers selling fast cars, etc etc etc.

Guess what?  No one made these morons go borrow beyond their means!   It's not up to the government to police our wallets.   I don't want the friggin government or big business telling me what I can and can't do.   I want my freedom.  Which includes the freedom to spend and save,  as I wish.   but if I overspend,  I have to face the bill collector.

It's pretty friggin simple.

Banks who made bad loans?  Screw em. Don't  bail them out, let them go under.  People who borrowed too much,  Screw em,  garnish their wages, and if they aren't working make em clean the public sewers until they can pay it back. 

  We have gotten too soft, everyone is looking for the easy way out.

Why should the taxpayers bail out nitwits?  Whether they are lending institutions or just plain dummies.   Let em go broke.   That's capitalism and sure beats the hell out of Facism, Communism, and Socialism.

It's not the present or past president's fault, that is a blatant cop out.

As far as the tax incentive goes,  I am all for it.  If you worked and made money, paid taxes, you get some back.  That's how it should be. No different than your normal refund, huh?  You don't hear people belly aching about a refund?

This isn't hand outs, or welfare,  they are merely giving you a little bit of YOUR OWN MONEY back to you.  It's like a TAX Cut.  be cynical all you like,  people are going to spend this cash, why?  Becuase we cannot help ourselves.  Smart people may save it, or use for real needs like groceries or shoes for their kids.  others will go on friday night and buy a round for eveyone and it will be gone.  Too bad,  so sad,  a fool and his money are soon parted.

Whenever we raise taxes our economy goes in the dumper,  when we lower taxes our economy picks up the pace. 

If you want to beleive the news media and their sensationalistic gloom and doom, and be spoonfed BS night after night, go right ahead. Take a nice big bite of the brainwashing.  they want you to believe things are bad,  becuase if you believe it,  then they are.  it's the medias version of a grand illusion.  And people buy into their crap daily.

The fact is,  the people are to blame!!!  not Congress, not Presidents, not big business, not Corporate America.  Everyone needs to grow a set and face reality and stop trying to push off blame.   No one is being forced to go buy all the crap they buy!

Our society has a habit worse than any drug habit.  yes, they will spend this money they get, mostly on dumb crap.  Someone will get a little poorer,  someone else will get a little richer.  Everyone has a choice in the matter.

Choose wisely.

 

 

 



Edited by Picasso - 29 January 2008 at 9:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ShortyBP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2008 at 6:46am
Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:

should had fixed your gutters Noob. have fun fixing a leaking foundation and trying to shoot wet ammo.



Funny! I'm sure there are better things I could've spent on... but I installed new gutters a long time ago.

And ammo stored in sealed USGI cans = dry, even if my basement were to completely flood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ShortyBP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2008 at 6:53am
Originally posted by Picasso Picasso wrote:

How about all the idiots who cannot manage their personal finances, spend beyond their limits, demand wages so high that the products they produce cannot be exported due to their high costs and rack up credit card debt like there is no tomorrow?

Because blaming it on the dumb public would only make sense... but the dumb public doesn't like being called dumb!

As much as I spend (and I WILL admit it's way too much), I've never spent more than I have. Aside from the 14% that goes into my TSP (401K), I don't save nearly as much as I should... but I haven't racked up debt like so many others I know. I've had credit cards since I was 18, and use them for everything... bills, grocery, gas, ammo, utilities, etc... yet the credit card companies have never made a nickel off me, cause I pay off every month.

Joe Blow will cry about how the state of the economy is hurting him... and will curse the government as he points the finger of blame at the images displayed on the 52" HD LCD TV hanging on his wall that he still owes $2K for.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man Bites Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2008 at 9:45am
Picasso, have you ever been visited by three ghosts on Christmas Eve? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skillet42565 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2008 at 10:05am
I like Picasso.  He makes sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote White o Light Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2008 at 10:29am
sooooo creepy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2008 at 11:22am
Originally posted by Picasso Picasso wrote:

Blaming this on politicians, and former presidents is ludicrous.


How about all the idiots who cannot manage their personal finances, spend beyond their limits, demand wages so high that the products they produce cannot be exported due to their high costs and rack up credit card debt like there is no tomorrow?


You wil also find people blaming credit card compaines and banks for giving out loans, retail compaines for selling big screen TVs, car dealers selling fast cars, etc etc etc.


Guess what? No one made these morons go borrow beyond their means!   It's not up to the government to police our wallets.   I don't want the friggin government or big business telling me what I can and can't do.   I want my freedom. Which includes the freedom to spend and save, as I wish.   but if I overspend, I have to face the bill collector.


It's pretty friggin simple.


Banks who made bad loans? Screw em. Don't bail them out, let them go under. People who borrowed too much, Screw em, garnish their wages, and if they aren't working make em clean the public sewers until they can pay it back.


We have gotten too soft, everyone is looking for the easy way out.


Why should the taxpayers bail out nitwits? Whether they are lending institutions or just plain dummies.   Let em go broke.   That's capitalism and sure beats the hell out of Facism, Communism, and Socialism.


It's not the present or past president's fault, that is a blatant cop out.


As far as the tax incentive goes, I am all for it. If you worked and made money, paid taxes, you get some back. That's how it should be. No different than your normal refund, huh? You don't hear people belly aching about a refund?


This isn't hand outs, or welfare, they are merely giving you a little bit of YOUR OWN MONEY back to you. It's like a TAX Cut. be cynical all you like, people are going to spend this cash, why? Becuase we cannot help ourselves. Smart people may save it, or use for real needs like groceries or shoes for their kids. others will go on friday night and buy a round for eveyone and it will be gone. Too bad, so sad, a fool and his money are soon parted.


Whenever we raise taxes our economy goes in the dumper, when we lower taxes our economy picks up the pace.


If you want to beleive the news media and their sensationalistic gloom and doom, and be spoonfed BS night after night, go right ahead. Take a nice big bite of the brainwashing. they want you to believe things are bad, becuase if you believe it, then they are. it's the medias version of a grand illusion. And people buy into their crap daily.


The fact is, the people are to blame!!! not Congress, not Presidents, not big business, not Corporate America. Everyone needs to grow a set and face reality and stop trying to push off blame.   No one is being forced to go buy all the crap they buy!


Our society has a habit worse than any drug habit. yes, they will spend this money they get, mostly on dumb crap. Someone will get a little poorer, someone else will get a little richer. Everyone has a choice in the matter.


Choose wisely.




Sure, people are to blame Pic, but the blame resides on far broader shoulders than the idiots who out-spend their income be it on credit cards, houses, or whatnot. That's just the final straw that has broken the camel's back when it comes to the economy. What is left for us to build on? What industry is there? Where's the foundation for a market that isn't going to jump and drop depending on how many goods and services we buy domestically rather than relying on a broad sales base that favors exportation? As for my comment on the fault of the past three administrations in this debacle, it isn't a cop-out. It's fact that goes far beyond the musings of arm-chair politics. Many people on this forum have had the privilege of living in economically stable regions. Economically stable because there are wide varieties of employment opportunities in various fields. However, look at places like Pennsylvania Steel country, West Virginia's steel and chemical centers, even up state New York's manufacturing areas. All of them are depressed. All of them were foundations for the economy, and all of them now take a huge chunk out of federal welfare funds just to maintain a sub-standard lifestyle due to the fact that the means for employment were packed up and shipped off to China, India, Pakistan, and any other 2nd or 3rd world country where cheap labor and cheap transportation could be exploited. Those three administrations I pointed out had every means and ability to change the situation, to help keep those jobs within our shores and continue to strengthen the foundation of our economy rather than let it be shifted over to a "service-based" economy which is far flimsier than a "goods-based" economy. To be strong, you must produce more within your shores than you need to bring in. We are failing to do so. Even our food situation is becoming dire. The end of post WWII agricultural bounty is near and anyone who thinks otherwise has their head in the sand. We, as a nation, now consume far more goods than we produce. That means that we are in a trade deficit beyond our borders and until we combat the outsourcing of our production means and focus on self sufficiency again, we're going to be screwed. It may not be this decade, maybe not next, but we're headed for the poor house pretty quickly if these policies don't change.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evil Elvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2008 at 8:30pm
Tallen Tallen ... did you just find NPR?

The problem in the economy isnt all the made in china problem. Heck somethings are best made overseas. After all we learned what happened with the industrial revolution it left our cities trashed. Heck look at detroit now days.

The things is to find a way to stimulate new industry. Americans all want more wages and easier work. Factories become more mechanized and automated each year. Wich isnt a bad thing. It's a persons own perogatove that if your current industry dires out. Then you can always retrain to another Industry. There are countless Job postings everyday. Some people just feel that they are too good to such manual work. And I belive that some work is above americans. Why I am all for a controled Registered Migrant Alien Work force that could take care of the symple farm work.

And American can concentrate on Automation and other labours needed. Find what's hot in industry and work there. Look at the bigger items that are shipped overseas and manufacture those. Heck if we taxed auto imports more we'd have more companies like Toyota that build in the USA. Not Mejico nor Canadia. .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Picasso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2008 at 9:12pm

 

We, as a nation, now consume far more goods than we produce.

Thank you for making my point.  Maybe the former presidents should have taken away everyone's credit card and sent them to the corner?

You didn't happen to tell us HOW they could have done it,  just made an open ended statement that they had the power to do it?  How?

Q: Should the Government control our spending habits?

Q: Should the government not allow imports that Americans gobble up faster than they can be shipped here?

It's the people!!!!   The people are the problem!!  They want everything yesterday.   They have no willpower.  they were the ones who demanded higher wages, which caused upward spiralling inflation.

Some people just don't get it.  They will be stuck in the 20th century manufacturing goods , factory worker ideal.   It's not 1960 any more!

It's over man,  long ago,  over.   Give it up.  No one,  not even our presidents could have stopped it,  nor should they have stopped it.

Just exactly **edited** do think they should have done?  What is the magical answer?  With all the advisors, government economists, rssearch and resources,  you are gonna tell me you have had the answer all along?

I know,  a time machine?  le's all get in it,  and go back to the post- World War 2 era and work in factories!   It wasn't that great.

Steel?  There is no money in steel?   If the US was still a large steel producer all the workers would be laid off because the Chinese can produce for pennies on the dollar!!!   the dumbest thing we could have done was to hold onto the manufacturing sector,  as it would have been snuffed out like a cheap cigar by China, India, pakistan,  etc. etc. etc.

There is nothing we can do to keep them from producing cheap goods.  Not even the president.

If any Americans want to work in US factories making steel,  then their wage needs to be about $5 per hour in order to compete in the world market.

Anyone?  Any takers?   Didn't think so.

Politicians cannot hold back global change.   To sit back and actually publicly say that we should let POLITCIANS take care of ANYTHING is the dumbest thing I have heard.  Politicians and government can rarely do anything right anyway.  Our society continually whines about everything.   Our society is weak,  period. They want Mr. Government to take care of them, boo hoo,   NOT Me. 

Grow a set.

Want something screwed up royaly,  ask the government to take care of it. 

"They shouldda done this,  they shouldda done that" ... wah wah wah.  That is what we always hear , and always after the fact.

Why not blame the Labor Unions of the 20th century, who held a gun to big industry's head and forced higher and higher wages to the point we couldn't compete anymore?

  As Shorty just said,  even though he spends a few bucks here and there,  he has the sense not to rack up $20k in credit card debt!!That's what I am talking about.  And why should he pay more taxes to bail out someone who did?  The money always comes for us,  for any fix by a politican or the government.

Let's hear from everyone, how much addtional money are you willing to pay in taxes to see if the governemnt can help?? 

If there is no work in NY or West Va. then those folks should go find some work elsewhere!

Check the unemployment rates for the past decade!  They are at the lowest the have been in 50 years!   I am old enough to remember double-digit unemployment and double-digit inflation.  I happen to know that most of you are too young to even have a concept of it.

You only think things are bad because you choose to believe this media crap they spew daily.

We have generations of people who still cling to the notion that FDR is gonna rise up from the dead and start a bunch of gov't programs so everyone can have a gauranteed job.  That is Socialism!  It doesn't work.   

Isntead of blaming soon-to-be dead presidents,  what is the answer?  What should be done?  What is the Plan?

Is it wait for the government to save us?

Or is it taking a personal accountability and being responsible for ourselves, and our own well being?

 

 



Edited by Picasso - 30 January 2008 at 9:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evil Elvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2008 at 9:17pm
Good work on the Gutters Shorty. Maybee well get that driveway in sometime.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bunkered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2008 at 9:38pm
I'm going to spend my tax return on a large bag of marijuana, as usual. Now, if the government would only legalize it, they'd get some of it back in the form of taxes.

*Edit: But seriously, that could be the answer to fixing the gov't deficit.

Edited by Bunkered - 30 January 2008 at 9:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obnoxious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2008 at 10:31pm
I like you Picasso. Personal responsibility and living within your means, sounds good to me. A lot of this country is spoiled beyond recognition and run into debt, looking for the government to help them and the for the FED to cut interest rates. Let those people suffer for once in a while and maybe it'll teach them a lesson, and let the people who are in genuinely bad socioeconomic situations get a chance to earn their fair share of wages.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skillet42565 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2008 at 11:39pm
I agree with everything Picasso says in this posting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2008 at 11:45pm
Originally posted by Picasso Picasso wrote:


Q: Should the Government control our spending habits?


No, they should not. It's a free market after all. And as I said before, the spending habits of the citizens in this country are only the tip of the iceburg. I personally agree with you Pic, that those who make the wrong choices in financial situations should be cut free to drift in their self-made quagmire. Don't spend my money bailing out their poor choices. Same goes for effing health-care. Sure, the average poor white trash can afford a big-screen tv and a muscle-car out front of their trailer, but you can't spend $200/mo for health insurance?
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Q: Should the government not allow imports that Americans gobble up faster than they can be shipped here?


While turning away imports is impractical and impossible, it was and still is possible to make it so that they have to compete in a more level market. There's a reason that the Chinese are keeping their currency artificially low. If they were to allow it to actually float on the market as it should, they couldn't afford to make those commodities for so little. Hell, they'd probably start getting into the same situation we are with another country. The fact of the matter is, they aren't playing by the same rules. So enact protective tariffs on their goods which makes it cost as much to buy imported crap as it does to buy domestic. There's a point at which a free market must meet with regulation before it collapses in on itself.

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It's the people!!!!   The people are the problem!! They want everything yesterday.   They have no willpower. they were the ones who demanded higher wages, which caused upward spiralling inflation.


Some people just don't get it. They will be stuck in the 20th century manufacturing goods , factory worker ideal.   It's not 1960 any more!


It's over man, long ago, over.   Give it up. No one, not even our presidents could have stopped it, nor should they have stopped it.


Just exactly **edited** do think they should have done? What is the magical answer? With all the advisors, government economists, rssearch and resources, you are gonna tell me you have had the answer all along?



I'm not going to tell you that I have the complete answer, but the fact of the matter is this. Deals were made, advice was given, and some bad calls got through. Plain and simple. The political powers that be have been for sale in this country since the beginning of the cold war and certain industries have taken advantage of that fact. If it weren't so, there wouldn't be so many damned lobbyists in our neck of the woods now would there? There is no magical answer, but there are points that were made by various advisers from Kissinger to Greenspan that went ignored that have turned out to be quite true and damaging to our efforts to maintain our status as the head-honcho.

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I know, a time machine? le's all get in it, and go back to the post- World War 2 era and work in factories!   It wasn't that great.


Steel? There is no money in steel?   If the US was still a large steel producer all the workers would be laid off because the Chinese can produce for pennies on the dollar!!!   the dumbest thing we could have done was to hold onto the manufacturing sector, as it would have been snuffed out like a cheap cigar by China, India, pakistan, etc. etc. etc.


There is nothing we can do to keep them from producing cheap goods. Not even the president.


If any Americans want to work in US factories making steel, then their wage needs to be about $5 per hour in order to compete in the world market.


Anyone? Any takers?   Didn't think so.


Politicians cannot hold back global change.   To sit back and actually publicly say that we should let POLITCIANS take care of ANYTHING is the dumbest thing I have heard. Politicians and government can rarely do anything right anyway. Our society continually whines about everything.   Our society is weak, period. They want Mr. Government to take care of them, boo hoo,   NOT Me.


Grow a set.


Want something screwed up royaly, ask the government to take care of it.


"They shouldda done this, they shouldda done that" ... wah wah wah. That is what we always hear , and always after the fact.


Why not blame the Labor Unions of the 20th century, who held a gun to big industry's head and forced higher and higher wages to the point we couldn't compete anymore?



So, since you seem to have the answers, what do you think the economy should be built upon? The idea of a service based economy is flimsier than a goods-based economy against a rising Asian industrial power. How long until the services that we are counting on to provide the money to drive the nation are outsourced to India and China as well? How long until, due to the fact that neither country respects any international IP agreements, they start producing all of the service-based goods that we've based our futures on? Just like with steel, just like with other manufacturing jobs, they're going to be able to do it cheaper. They'll cut us out of that market as well. Honestly, if I did have a time machine, I'd go back and tell Truman to grow a pair and listen to MacArthur. We wouldn't have the issue with China that we do today, that's for sure.

As for Unions. Don't even get me started on their worthless asses. The only union that I have any respect for these days is the Teacher's Union. Every other one out there is an outmoded dinosaur that does far more harm than good.
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As Shorty just said, even though he spends a few bucks here and there, he has the sense not to rack up $20k in credit card debt!!That's what I am talking about. And why should he pay more taxes to bail out someone who did? The money always comes for us, for any fix by a politican or the government.


Let's hear from everyone, how much addtional money are you willing to pay in taxes to see if the governemnt can help??


If there is no work in NY or West Va. then those folks should go find some work elsewhere!


"Go somewhere else" Yeah, easy for you to say. But what about those people who don't have that luxury? What about those who were born into depressed situations already, only to have their fathers and mothers lose their jobs because it is not cheaper for Union Carbide to produce Methyl Isocyanate over in Bhopal India where there are no safety restrictions than to do it properly over here? What chance do they have? What chance does someone who works in a highly specialized field have to find a new job that pays as well elsewhere when the entire field is collapsing due to the outsourcing phenomenon? You seem to be the answers guy. Tell me, what does a 50 year old waste water treatment specialist who has done that his entire life wind up doing when his plant shuts down without notice? What does he do when he has a wife and kid, a mortgage, and his daughter's college to pay for? How does he survive? Give me that answer and I'll tell you what they actually wind up having to do.

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Check the unemployment rates for the past decade! They are at the lowest the have been in 50 years!   I am old enough to remember double-digit unemployment and double-digit inflation. I happen to know that most of you are too young to even have a concept of it.


You only think things are bad because you choose to believe this media crap they spew daily.


We have generations of people who still cling to the notion that FDR is gonna rise up from the dead and start a bunch of gov't programs so everyone can have a gauranteed job. That is Socialism! It doesn't work.   


Isntead of blaming soon-to-be dead presidents, what is the answer? What should be done? What is the Plan?


Is it wait for the government to save us?


Or is it taking a personal accountability and being responsible for ourselves, and our own well being?





Unemployment is indeed the lowest in decades, same with inflation, but the fact of the matter is, we are still falling behind the rest of the world. Jobs are all well and good, the stabilization of inflation is good as well, but the job growth has slowed to a crawl! So has our economic growth. The same numbers will tell you that! The nation is headed to the same situation it was in with the early 1900's. There will be two classes of people. The extremely wealthy and the extremely poor. And the extremely poor will far outweigh the wealthy by all means. I'm personally not worried Pic, everyone has to eat. But what about our kids? What kind of an economy will your son and daughter wind up having to slog through while repaying student loans? Heck, will my children's generation even be able to afford college? What happens to them when the cost of a college education is out of reach but for the very rich again? What kind of unskilled labor will be left for them to make a living off of?

I'm not saying that everything lies solely on the shoulders of the administrative branch of our gov't, but it doesn't lie solely on the shoulders of it's citizens either. It is a shared load.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evil Elvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2008 at 11:54pm
Tallen that is crap. everyone can move. When I first came to the US i lived in a real crappy area. Took us all of 3 months to find a better place. And we didnt have much but what we could fit in suitcases. Maybee we should hold everyone's hand and weep for them.

That's a part of the problem with Homeless and the vicious Welfare circles. We are so ready to place the 'victim' label on anyone and quick to give them a minimum handout. and we wonder why they never better themselves. Working downtown for 8 years I am to the point that I know all the regular Homeless by name and can even name the kind of booze that they drink. I had so many run ins with them that I heard all their excuses and even have been told that its easier to be homeless than to live a real life.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2008 at 12:21am
Originally posted by Picasso Picasso wrote:

Some people just don't get it.  They will be stuck in the 20th century manufacturing goods , factory worker ideal.   It's not 1960 any more!

...

I know,  a time machine?  le's all get in it,  and go back to the post- World War 2 era and work in factories!   It wasn't that great.

...

  the dumbest thing we could have done was to hold onto the manufacturing sector

...

Politicians cannot hold back global change.   

...

If there is no work in NY or West Va. then those folks should go find some work elsewhere!

Finally a real capitalist among all the part-time wannabe poseurs.

I completely agree with your analysis, and laugh every time I hear a laid off auto worker in Detroit whine about his predicament.  Wah.  Wah.  Wah.

Somewhere along the line, Americans got the idea that not only are they entitled to a job, but they are entitled to a high-paying job that does not require them to re-educate, and that happens to be conveniently located.

Mexicans risk their lives travelling across borders to find work - Americans won't even move out of state.

BUT - all that being the case, the function of government is not to sit in moral judgement of its citizens, but to make the country a better place.  And sometimes that means doing things that may appear counter-capitalist.

Buying bad mortgages at a discount from banks, for instance, may appear to be a bailout for banks and a windfall for stupid borrowers.  That may or may not be true (I happen to think not), but the real question ought to be whether it works.

A government should be a utilitarian institution.  Within reason, if it works, do it.  If we could do a great thing for the economy, then we should do it regardless of whether it may be a distasteful "bailout".  Bailing out idiots should not be our motivation, but we should not let it stop us from being useful.

"No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bunkered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2008 at 7:28am
Susan, I think if you go elsewhere (most of Europe for example, especially France), they seem to have far more of a sense of entitlement to a job than anyone in the US.

Living in Detroit, I feel sorry for the folks who lost their jobs there. Most of them are good, hard-working people who just happened to want enough of a wage/benefits to live comfortably and thought that GM/Ford would be around forever. If we had put taxes on foreign-made vehicles back in the 70's, we wouldn't have had this huge outsourcing problem.

Now, I'm generally the last person to want the government to restrict any kind of trade... However, where will we be if there were to be another world-wide conflict without our industrial war-machine running at (near) full strength?
I'm fairly certain that had a great deal to do with us winning WWII.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2008 at 10:26am

Originally posted by Bunkered Bunkered wrote:

Susan, I think if you go elsewhere (most of Europe for example, especially France), they seem to have far more of a sense of entitlement to a job than anyone in the US.

True.  Which is why I don't live there.

Quote Living in Detroit, I feel sorry for the folks who lost their jobs there.

Sure - losing your job sucks.  The question is what you do about it.  And you are still moping around Flint a decade later, my sympathy is all used up.

Quote Most of them are good, hard-working people who just happened to want enough of a wage/benefits to live comfortably and thought that GM/Ford would be around forever.

I.e., they felt entitled.  They came to think of a good job as a fixture.  That's not how capitalism works.

[quote]If we had put taxes on foreign-made vehicles back in the 70's, we wouldn't have had this huge outsourcing problem. [quote]

GAH!  Back to capitalism school for you.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2008 at 11:11am
As for the question of what you do about losing your job, it depends on your situation. Take my home state for example. Young people are leaving the state in droves. Most of us get an education, stick it out for a couple of years to "fight the good fight" and then get out while the getting is good. Those that stay run the risks associated with the various industries in which they work. Those that are in non industrialized sectors have less risk, but still, the situation is bleak. The youth have the chance to leave though. They have no ties other than their parents and childhood homes. They don't have families, kids in school, mortgages, or other anchors that make a move difficult. Elvis said that he was able to move even though all their possessions could fit into suitcases. That actually makes it easier to move out of a depressed area. If you didn't have a mortgage, in that depressed area, your kids weren't in the middle of their second semester of high school, and you didn't have other anchors holding you to the location, then yes, it's very easy to pick up and leave. But what about people who settled down in a time when it appeared that their job was secure? Here's an example. I dated a girl (Desiree) who's father had worked for Flexus specialty chemical from the time he was 16 years old. He finished up high school and went to work full time when he was 17. He worked in various sectors of the facility and finally wound up being the head of waste water management for the company which is no slouch of a job seeing as how he was in charge of making sure that no chemicals or their by-products made it into the waste water system or ground water. In 2003, as he turned 55, the plant suddenly decided to close and began rolling lay-offs over the next year. He began looking for work both inside and outside the state immediately. Now, at that time he had a house that he built that was 3/4 of the way to being paid off on a 20 year mortgage. His daughter (my girlfriend at the time) was in her Jr year of college (which he was paying for) and he had a car payment. Doesn't seem like a whole lot of debt because it really wasn't. However, he was unable to secure da new position anywhere that would facilitate his move under those circumstances. No job growth in the state of WV means that no one wants to buy a house. His daughter needed to finish up college and he was paying for it. So, not being able to find something that would pay well enough to make the move possible he decided to go the re-education route and find another job in state. He did exactly what Pic and Susan have stated he should have. He got training for a new job. Now, with the market for jobs being so crappy, he wound up having to train for no less than 3 separate new jobs. When he finally found one that paid close to what his old job did, it was with no benefits and horrible hours. Now, he still has his house, his daughter graduated with honors and is now on a free ride for her masters, and he no longer has a car payment and only about 4 more years on his mortgage, but his life has been horrible since the layoff. He no longer gets to see his family, he works almost double the hours he used to, and has only the minimum of benefits from his employer. And the sad thing is, that is going to be the best his life will get until he can afford to retire in 8 more years.

Not everyone has the chance to move, and the jobs that are available to non-college educated people who have to change careers in the middle are less than desirable. What would you do if you were in that same situation?

Pic, what would you do if your company decided to eliminate 50% or more of the work force you are in tomorrow because an alternative became available and you were affected and all of the other companies that use the same workforce did the same?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bunkered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2008 at 11:12am

It's funny because for the most part, I consider myself to be a highly capitalistic person.
How is taxing foreign goods counter to capitalism as a whole? It is in the national interest to have a good trade balance, and also in the national interest to ensure that we still have at least somewhat of an industrial base.
That, and I'm tired of Michigan getting screwed over by everything (not that it's directly affected me or anything). The economy here sucks, and once I get mah schoolin' I'm heading out West.
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