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Alright, let’s talk stimulus!

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    Posted: 01 February 2008 at 5:25pm
Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:

Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:


Unavailable for comment



Now with HGH


Probably got the HGH from eating all that Taco Bell.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evil Elvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 February 2008 at 5:01pm
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:


Unavailable for comment



Now with HGH

Edited by Evil Elvis - 01 February 2008 at 5:01pm
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Unavailable for comment
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skillet42565 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 February 2008 at 11:11am
"Tonight I will take you both out to the finest dining establishment around... Taco Bell..."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 February 2008 at 10:43am
Is it the beginning of the Franchise Wars?!
"No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 February 2008 at 10:26am
Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:



Indeed we will finally get great Tacos at Taco Bell.


Wrong!!!! Didn't you hear? Taco Bell is invading Mexico now. Big press release about it. Apparently the hispanic community is assimilating more than was thought and they're taking the taste for cheap soy-pro and low-grade beef back with them whenever the ICE ships them back across the boarder. It'd be like Canadians taking a taste for Krispy Kreme back across their frozen god-forsaken boarder.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evil Elvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2008 at 11:25pm
Originally posted by Susan Storm Susan Storm wrote:

Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

NAFTA is actually one of the policies that should never have been allowed to go forward.


I disagree.


Granted there are some problems, but IMO the problems with NAFTA are the result of incompletely open borders.† What we need to do with NAFTA is expand it.† Open the borders to Mexican labor.


Even as it is, NAFTA has had loads of positive effects.† We have been able to outsource even more jobs, and generally take advantage of cheaper Mexican conditions.



Indeed we will finally get great Tacos at Taco Bell.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2008 at 11:14pm

Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

NAFTA is actually one of the policies that should never have been allowed to go forward.

I disagree.

Granted there are some problems, but IMO the problems with NAFTA are the result of incompletely open borders.  What we need to do with NAFTA is expand it.  Open the borders to Mexican labor.

Even as it is, NAFTA has had loads of positive effects.  We have been able to outsource even more jobs, and generally take advantage of cheaper Mexican conditions.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2008 at 11:10pm

Originally posted by Bunkered Bunkered wrote:


How is taxing foreign goods counter to capitalism as a whole?

It is inefficient.  Every good should be made at the lowest cost.  Taxes like this artificially raise prices, thereby diverting resources to inefficient applications, away from their best use.

Taxes like this lower national and global productivity.  It is a waste for Americans to be making steel bars.

Quote It is in the national interest to have a good trade balance, and also in the national interest to ensure that we still have at least somewhat of an industrial base.

Industrial base has some national security purposes, but that is not a capitalist/economic concern.  If we choose to be economically inefficient for security purposes so be it, but let's not pretend it is good economic policy.

This "trade deficit" bit has been way oversold.  It is a self-correcting issue if currencies are free.  The solution here is to bully the Chinese into freeing their currency, not taxes for the sake of taxes.  Even without a free yuan, the free dollar does a pretty good job of adapting.
That, and I'm tired of Michigan getting screwed over by everything (not that it's directly affected me or anything). The economy here sucks, and once I get mah schoolin' I'm heading out West.[/QUOTE]



Edited by Susan Storm - 31 January 2008 at 11:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2008 at 10:16pm
NAFTA is actually one of the policies that should never have been allowed to go forward. If you want to reach back in time, the trade agreements we made with China from the Nixon era to now have wound up making us pay dearly as well. Regardless, as I said, things are no where near as bad as they could be or have been in the past, but they will get worse if things don't change.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Picasso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2008 at 9:20pm

I was an adult back in the 80's,  how old were you guys?  I voted for Reagan ,  twice even!!

I still haven't heard any specifics.

What are these "Mystery" policies??  We came off of double digit unemployment and inflation during that period,  it certainly wasn't done by forcing people out of their jobs and killing industries.

If you want to harp on a big piece of doo doo,  try NAFTA.  "the big sucking sound from the south."  Blame Klinton.  Hillary was even all for it,  fell good stuff.  Ask her now...she backs off that topic.

Cars were going to be made cheaply overseas,  and/or by Robots.  there was no policy that was going to stop it.  And if there was it would be government subsidies,  which means higher taxes and death to the economy.

A mixture of Socialism and Capitalism actually sucks,  it muddies things down, and then you have loop-holes created by government, that only corporations and fatcats can take advantage of. Middle America gets screwed by government intervention.   

Import taxes stifle progress.   US auto industry, early 1970s.  they kept selling same old craapy rust buckets for 2 decades.  Japan forced the US auto industry out of the stone age and into the space age.

It's called progress.  Why did cars in Russia look like 1940's cars?  Socailistic economy, protectionism and lack of competition.

Government policies only interfere with free trade,  they don't help it.  If anyone believes otherwise they are a bleeding heart,  Big Government liberal.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2008 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:


A little late there Chief. Who do you thinks Makes the Harrier II Jump Jet some brit companyand The M249 SAW, MK43, M240G, SCAR ect ect?
FN a Belgium Company. We want our Marines to have the best Weapons out there posible. Why HK came real close with their Battle tested G-36 version wich we call the XM-8.

And Tallen America is the land of Oportunity for those who have the brass cojones to Carpe Diem. Look at me not only I was able to serve my country I was able to purchase my home with a sweet interest rate. Not to bad for someone back then under 30 years old.


I completely agree Elvis, I really do. The ability to build a life for yourself from nothing is one of the things that makes this country great. And I don't believe it is in as bad a shape as the media and others make it out to be. I just think there are some areas where we went wrong. All anyone has to do is take a look at you, shorty, or even myself and see that you can build a nice life for yourself with a little hard work and some dedication. Trust me, with the exception of the fact that I think that policy changes back in the 80's and 90's could have headed off a lot of the issues we're starting to see with outsourcing, Pic, Shorty, you, and myself all agree on a lot of the issues. You guys have known be long enough to know that. Now, I can't believe you and Pic live in the two most communist states on the east coast..... but we never claimed you guys weren't crazy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evil Elvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2008 at 5:22pm
   Oh btw. My first job in High School was picking tabacco leaves. Then at Seventeen I left for Paris Island my Second career was as a Machine Gunner/Rifleman said skills dont translate well into the Civilian world market so when I got out. I worked in a factory coating Screws while something else came along. Two months alter I began to work for a Private Security Company.

A few years later growing anoyed with the serveice we used to get from our always too bussy IT and Maintanance Department I taugh myself every System in the Building Complex I worked in. Wich lead to new Positions and new job responsabilities. Now I run the harware and I am an Assistant Account Manager and also run the human element of Security.

Being able to learn and adapt to the changing market. Has lead me to my sucess in life. I now have 2 dogs, the house and the kids and the pickup truck. If the market here would dry out. i'd get as much as I could for what I have and I'd start all over again else where that is what life is all about. As they say in the Marines, Improvise, Adapt and Overcome.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evil Elvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2008 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

   


Personally, I'm just waiting for the first foreign arms contract to be given out. That will truly show how far the outsourcing of our production has gone. It is law here in the US that we maintain our own arms and armament manufacturing as to ensure our supplies in the event of war. I give it about 5 more years before we start turning a blind eye or change the laws to start getting our arms and armament for cheap from India or China.


A little late there Chief. Who do you thinks Makes the Harrier II Jump Jet some brit companyand The M249 SAW, MK43, M240G, SCAR ect ect?
FN a Belgium Company. We want our Marines to have the best Weapons out there posible. Why HK came real close with their Battle tested G-36 version wich we call the XM-8.

And Tallen America is the land of Oportunity for those who have the brass cojones to Carpe Diem. Look at me not only I was able to serve my country I was able to purchase my home with a sweet interest rate. Not to bad for someone back then under 30 years old.

Edited by Evil Elvis - 31 January 2008 at 5:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2008 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by Bunkered Bunkered wrote:


It's funny because for the most part, I consider myself to be a highly capitalistic person.
How is taxing foreign goods counter to capitalism as a whole? It is in the national interest to have a good trade balance, and also in the national interest to ensure that we still have at least somewhat of an industrial base.
That, and I'm tired of Michigan getting screwed over by everything (not that it's directly affected me or anything). The economy here sucks, and once I get mah schoolin' I'm heading out West.


Well, true capitalism means that we let the market take it's course regardless of the effects that it causes on any one particular sector. i.e. the lowest priced seller wins so long as they are able to make enough money to stay in business. True capitalism doesn't know national boundaries. It is market based, not moral based.

Of course, any pure form of any system is impossible to maintain given human nature. Be it pure communism or pure capitalism, there is always an outside influence that will skew the actual process of the given system. That isn't necessarily a bad thing either. While many people rally against the socialist form of government, the combination of socialism and capitalism in the right parts can bring about a working and worthwhile system given the proper circumstances. History has shown this to be true. That isn't to say that socialism is the right prescription for every situation, or even very many situations.

Personally, I'm just waiting for the first foreign arms contract to be given out. That will truly show how far the outsourcing of our production has gone. It is law here in the US that we maintain our own arms and armament manufacturing as to ensure our supplies in the event of war. I give it about 5 more years before we start turning a blind eye or change the laws to start getting our arms and armament for cheap from India or China.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bunkered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2008 at 11:12am

It's funny because for the most part, I consider myself to be a highly capitalistic person.
How is taxing foreign goods counter to capitalism as a whole? It is in the national interest to have a good trade balance, and also in the national interest to ensure that we still have at least somewhat of an industrial base.
That, and I'm tired of Michigan getting screwed over by everything (not that it's directly affected me or anything). The economy here sucks, and once I get mah schoolin' I'm heading out West.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2008 at 11:11am
As for the question of what you do about losing your job, it depends on your situation. Take my home state for example. Young people are leaving the state in droves. Most of us get an education, stick it out for a couple of years to "fight the good fight" and then get out while the getting is good. Those that stay run the risks associated with the various industries in which they work. Those that are in non industrialized sectors have less risk, but still, the situation is bleak. The youth have the chance to leave though. They have no ties other than their parents and childhood homes. They don't have families, kids in school, mortgages, or other anchors that make a move difficult. Elvis said that he was able to move even though all their possessions could fit into suitcases. That actually makes it easier to move out of a depressed area. If you didn't have a mortgage, in that depressed area, your kids weren't in the middle of their second semester of high school, and you didn't have other anchors holding you to the location, then yes, it's very easy to pick up and leave. But what about people who settled down in a time when it appeared that their job was secure? Here's an example. I dated a girl (Desiree) who's father had worked for Flexus specialty chemical from the time he was 16 years old. He finished up high school and went to work full time when he was 17. He worked in various sectors of the facility and finally wound up being the head of waste water management for the company which is no slouch of a job seeing as how he was in charge of making sure that no chemicals or their by-products made it into the waste water system or ground water. In 2003, as he turned 55, the plant suddenly decided to close and began rolling lay-offs over the next year. He began looking for work both inside and outside the state immediately. Now, at that time he had a house that he built that was 3/4 of the way to being paid off on a 20 year mortgage. His daughter (my girlfriend at the time) was in her Jr year of college (which he was paying for) and he had a car payment. Doesn't seem like a whole lot of debt because it really wasn't. However, he was unable to secure da new position anywhere that would facilitate his move under those circumstances. No job growth in the state of WV means that no one wants to buy a house. His daughter needed to finish up college and he was paying for it. So, not being able to find something that would pay well enough to make the move possible he decided to go the re-education route and find another job in state. He did exactly what Pic and Susan have stated he should have. He got training for a new job. Now, with the market for jobs being so crappy, he wound up having to train for no less than 3 separate new jobs. When he finally found one that paid close to what his old job did, it was with no benefits and horrible hours. Now, he still has his house, his daughter graduated with honors and is now on a free ride for her masters, and he no longer has a car payment and only about 4 more years on his mortgage, but his life has been horrible since the layoff. He no longer gets to see his family, he works almost double the hours he used to, and has only the minimum of benefits from his employer. And the sad thing is, that is going to be the best his life will get until he can afford to retire in 8 more years.

Not everyone has the chance to move, and the jobs that are available to non-college educated people who have to change careers in the middle are less than desirable. What would you do if you were in that same situation?

Pic, what would you do if your company decided to eliminate 50% or more of the work force you are in tomorrow because an alternative became available and you were affected and all of the other companies that use the same workforce did the same?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2008 at 10:26am

Originally posted by Bunkered Bunkered wrote:

Susan, I think if you go elsewhere (most of Europe for example, especially France), they seem to have far more of a sense of entitlement to a job than anyone in the US.

True.  Which is why I don't live there.

Quote Living in Detroit, I feel sorry for the folks who lost their jobs there.

Sure - losing your job sucks.  The question is what you do about it.  And you are still moping around Flint a decade later, my sympathy is all used up.

Quote Most of them are good, hard-working people who just happened to want enough of a wage/benefits to live comfortably and thought that GM/Ford would be around forever.

I.e., they felt entitled.  They came to think of a good job as a fixture.  That's not how capitalism works.

[quote]If we had put taxes on foreign-made vehicles back in the 70's, we wouldn't have had this huge outsourcing problem. [quote]

GAH!  Back to capitalism school for you.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bunkered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2008 at 7:28am
Susan, I think if you go elsewhere (most of Europe for example, especially France), they seem to have far more of a sense of entitlement to a job than anyone in the US.

Living in Detroit, I feel sorry for the folks who lost their jobs there. Most of them are good, hard-working people who just happened to want enough of a wage/benefits to live comfortably and thought that GM/Ford would be around forever. If we had put taxes on foreign-made vehicles back in the 70's, we wouldn't have had this huge outsourcing problem.

Now, I'm generally the last person to want the government to restrict any kind of trade... However, where will we be if there were to be another world-wide conflict without our industrial war-machine running at (near) full strength?
I'm fairly certain that had a great deal to do with us winning WWII.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Susan Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2008 at 12:21am
Originally posted by Picasso Picasso wrote:

Some people just don't get it.  They will be stuck in the 20th century manufacturing goods , factory worker ideal.   It's not 1960 any more!

...

I know,  a time machine?  le's all get in it,  and go back to the post- World War 2 era and work in factories!   It wasn't that great.

...

  the dumbest thing we could have done was to hold onto the manufacturing sector

...

Politicians cannot hold back global change.   

...

If there is no work in NY or West Va. then those folks should go find some work elsewhere!

Finally a real capitalist among all the part-time wannabe poseurs.

I completely agree with your analysis, and laugh every time I hear a laid off auto worker in Detroit whine about his predicament.  Wah.  Wah.  Wah.

Somewhere along the line, Americans got the idea that not only are they entitled to a job, but they are entitled to a high-paying job that does not require them to re-educate, and that happens to be conveniently located.

Mexicans risk their lives travelling across borders to find work - Americans won't even move out of state.

BUT - all that being the case, the function of government is not to sit in moral judgement of its citizens, but to make the country a better place.  And sometimes that means doing things that may appear counter-capitalist.

Buying bad mortgages at a discount from banks, for instance, may appear to be a bailout for banks and a windfall for stupid borrowers.  That may or may not be true (I happen to think not), but the real question ought to be whether it works.

A government should be a utilitarian institution.  Within reason, if it works, do it.  If we could do a great thing for the economy, then we should do it regardless of whether it may be a distasteful "bailout".  Bailing out idiots should not be our motivation, but we should not let it stop us from being useful.

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