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brihard View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brihard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 February 2008 at 10:41pm
Originally posted by Snake6 Snake6 wrote:

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Originally posted by RoninGames RoninGames wrote:

I think there is another thing to look at here. Yes, it's a nice little cheap entry level marker. I wish this was out when I bought my first entry level marker. I wound up with a JT Tac-5 Camo. And let me tell you, that is a peice of crap. This, because it's a Tippy, I know is made much better.

 

Now look at the mil-sim look of this little marker. It looks very much like the current M-16 that the military uses. One thing that is happening in some military and law enforcement areas is the use of Paintball in as a trainning tool.

Becuase this is cheap to buy, more departments can afford to buy a number of them.

 

Yes, I know there is simunition rounds. However, the problem with those is that, to the best of my knowlage, they are only avalibe in small cal. rounds. Such as the 9mm. There is no simunition round for a 5.56 NATO round. Mostly because the round is traveling at such a high rate of speed, that it would shatter when fired.

 

So, if Tippmann worked with the US Army to make a marker that our troops can use to better their skills so they have a better chance to stay alive. Then figured that the same marker can be sold to the public. Good for them.



False. I have shot, and been shot with, 5.56mm simunition. They even have it belt fed for light machineguns. It's quite handy actually; no longer any need to swap out upper receivers.

That said, paintball is loads cheaper, much easier to run safely in force on force scenarios, and easier to template safe training ranges for, so your mention of military training is still valid.

I would not want to use paintball as a training tool. Even the most accurate M16 milsim paintball marker handles completely different than the real weapon. I would use sim rounds over paintball rounds any day of the week.


For reasons of muscle memory I agree, but in some situations it's still better than nothing, or blanks.
"Abortion is not "choice" in America. It is forced and the democrats are behind it, with the goal of eugenics at its foundation."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2008 at 7:15pm
One of the biggest reasons why paintball is not a sport is that often, the game is decided by player gear rather than player skill.

Every sport that I can think of off the top of my head regulates the equipment used by each team so that they are on equal ground and skill decides the victor.

This is not done in paintball, even in the advanced levels but especially in the lower levels where gear control is often not present at all. Yes, there have some moves towards this but they are still far from the amount that is required to make both sides be on equal ground.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skillet42565 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2008 at 7:17pm
In national tournaments paintball gear is regulated.  Also, letting everyone do a 15 bps ramp levels the playing field substantially.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snake6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2008 at 7:22pm
Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Originally posted by Snake6 Snake6 wrote:

Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:

Originally posted by RoninGames RoninGames wrote:

I think there is another thing to look at here. Yes, it's a nice little cheap entry level marker. I wish this was out when I bought my first entry level marker. I wound up with a JT Tac-5 Camo. And let me tell you, that is a peice of crap. This, because it's a Tippy, I know is made much better.

 

Now look at the mil-sim look of this little marker. It looks very much like the current M-16 that the military uses. One thing that is happening in some military and law enforcement areas is the use of Paintball in as a trainning tool.

Becuase this is cheap to buy, more departments can afford to buy a number of them.

 

Yes, I know there is simunition rounds. However, the problem with those is that, to the best of my knowlage, they are only avalibe in small cal. rounds. Such as the 9mm. There is no simunition round for a 5.56 NATO round. Mostly because the round is traveling at such a high rate of speed, that it would shatter when fired.

 

So, if Tippmann worked with the US Army to make a marker that our troops can use to better their skills so they have a better chance to stay alive. Then figured that the same marker can be sold to the public. Good for them.



False. I have shot, and been shot with, 5.56mm simunition. They even have it belt fed for light machineguns. It's quite handy actually; no longer any need to swap out upper receivers.

That said, paintball is loads cheaper, much easier to run safely in force on force scenarios, and easier to template safe training ranges for, so your mention of military training is still valid.

I would not want to use paintball as a training tool. Even the most accurate M16 milsim paintball marker handles completely different than the real weapon. I would use sim rounds over paintball rounds any day of the week.


For reasons of muscle memory I agree, but in some situations it's still better than nothing, or blanks.

It is better than nothing, but still not my first, second or third choice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2008 at 7:23pm
Originally posted by Skillet42565 Skillet42565 wrote:

In national tournaments paintball gear is regulated.† Also, letting everyone do a 15 bps ramp levels the playing field substantially. †


True, and I made note of this.

There are still many more things that would need to be regulated before this can be fulfuilled. I can list some but they aren't hard to think of.

But at the lower levels is where the problem lies. Most other sports keep the field level even at the lower play levels (In fact, I can't think of one that doesn't) paintball does not. As far from the major leagues as you get, the less organixzed and fair the game becomes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skillet42565 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2008 at 7:27pm
I'm noticing a definite trend in the lower levels of play these days.  Electros are getting cheaper and cheaper, and the playing field continues to get closer to ever.  Practically EVERYONE can shoot a 15bps ramp now, unless they don't want to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2008 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by Skillet42565 Skillet42565 wrote:

I'm noticing a definite trend in the lower levels of play these days.† Electros are getting cheaper and cheaper, and the playing field continues to get closer to ever.† Practically EVERYONE can shoot a 15bps ramp now, unless they don't want to.


The trend is not there yet.

There are no rules requiring 15 BPS in lower levels of play.

The question is no whenether paintball will be a sport in the future, it's whenether paintball is a sport right now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skillet42565 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2008 at 7:42pm
Paintball, in my opinion is a sport.  It is a highly physical activity with a clear goal in mind.  I would call it a more "extreme sport" if I were to call it anything though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evil Elvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2008 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by Snake6 Snake6 wrote:


Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:


Originally posted by Snake6 Snake6 wrote:


Originally posted by brihard brihard wrote:


Originally posted by RoninGames RoninGames wrote:

I think there is another thing to look at here. Yes, it's a nice little cheap entry level marker. I wish this was out when I bought my first entry level marker. I wound up with a JT Tac-5 Camo. And let me tell you, that is a peice of crap. This, because it's a Tippy, I know is made much better.



Now look at the mil-sim look of this little marker. It looks very much like the current M-16 that the military uses. One thing that is happening in some military and law enforcement areas is the use of Paintball in as a trainning tool.


Becuase this is cheap to buy, more departments can afford to buy a number of them.



Yes, I know there is simunition rounds. However, the problem with those is that, to the best of my knowlage, they are only avalibe in small cal. rounds. Such as the 9mm. There is no simunition round for a 5.56 NATO round. Mostly because the round is traveling at such a high rate of speed, that it would shatter when fired.



So, if Tippmann worked with the US Army to make a marker that our troops can use to better their skills so they have a better chance to stay alive. Then figured that the same marker can be sold to the public. Good for them.

False. I have shot, and been shot with, 5.56mm simunition. They even have it belt fed for light machineguns. It's quite handy actually; no longer any need to swap out upper receivers.That said, paintball is loads cheaper, much easier to run safely in force on force scenarios, and easier to template safe training ranges for, so your mention of military training is still valid.
I would not want to use paintball as a training tool. Even the most accurate M16 milsim paintball marker handles completely different than the real weapon. I would use sim rounds over paintball rounds any day of the week.
For reasons of muscle memory I agree, but in some situations it's still better than nothing, or blanks.
It is better than nothing, but still not my first, second or third choice.


How much "combat training" do your unit actually does? I rather train with Paintball than Blamks, MILES or other lame training tools that we had when in the Marines. Those training aids all they do is make people go thorugh the motions without knowing where the rounds are landing. I know range is a huge factor but for MOUT it's a prety decent simulator.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2008 at 8:46pm
If you are going to go the route of regulated equipment to define it as a sport, I really can not argue. I am going to say this anyway though.

All I can say to that is is PSP, MXL, AXBL, CXBL, and numerous local tournaments guns are capped to a 15 bps(changed this year ramp).  Anyone playing in higher than a beginner division, made to introduce players where Tippmann's and Spyders are the norm, will at least have an Ion. These guns come equipped with a board capable of 1, 2, 3 trigger pull to 15 bps. I think even electro spyders are now equipped to ramp.


I also have to say that the firepower isn't necessary to compete. I have won games with my Matrix having dirty and/or broken eyes. Anyone that shoots a Matrix knows that when the eyes aren't working the gun is capped at 8 BPS. A capable rate of fire with any gun.


I have more, but I will add later time to go


Edited by jmac3 - 09 February 2008 at 8:46pm
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2008 at 9:54pm
Originally posted by Skillet42565 Skillet42565 wrote:

Paintball, in my opinion is a sport.† It is a highly physical activity with a clear goal in mind.† I would call it a more "extreme sport" if I were to call it anything though.


What exactly is extreme about it?

Extreme supports are supposed to be dangerous and have a high chance of injury. Paintball is neither.


Originally posted by jmac3 jmac3 wrote:


If you are going to go the route of regulated equipment to define it as a sport, I really can not argue. I am going to say this anyway though.All I can say to that is is PSP, MXL, AXBL, CXBL, and numerous local tournaments guns are capped to a 15 bps(changed this year ramp).† Anyone playing in higher than a beginner division, made to introduce players where Tippmann's and Spyders are the norm, will at least have an Ion. These guns come equipped with a board capable of 1, 2, 3 trigger pull to 15 bps. I think even electro spyders are now equipped to ramp.I also have to say that the firepower isn't necessary to compete. I have won games with my Matrix having dirty and/or broken eyes. Anyone that shoots a Matrix knows that when the eyes aren't working the gun is capped at 8 BPS. A capable rate of fire with any gun.I have more, but I will add later time to go


The thing is, saying that skill is more important than equipment does't support that an argument to my point. A faster race car will probably not win the race with a crappy driver. That being said, having level equipment is certainly a defining part of a sport, definately one of the biggest. Without fulfilling that, it cannot be a sport.

Capping speed is a step forward but nowhere near what is needed to make equipment fair.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 February 2008 at 11:27pm
Originally posted by Evil Elvis Evil Elvis wrote:

I rather train with Paintball than Blamks, MILES or other lame training tools that we had when in the Marines. Those training aids all they do is make people go thorugh the motions without knowing where the rounds are landing.


MILES has a tendency to teach/reward some very bad practices in regards to cover vs. concealment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GI JOES SON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2008 at 12:53am
mack does have a point. MILES is more accurate than paintballs. even though you don't get hit it helps you figure out what you did wrong to an extent, but that will happen no matter how you train; you won't figure out how to fix every one of your problems with one way of training
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jmac3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2008 at 1:06am
He said it teached bad practices....
Que pasa?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GI JOES SON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 February 2008 at 1:33am
i'm just straight up messed up tonight reading crap. its been too long since i've had a drink

i don't know how...paintball would too in a wide open enough setting. you can't shoot a paintball across a 500 foot open valley where you can reach with miles. also, miles can be attatched to various transpo and assault vehicles; sure you could use a paintball tank but it won't be the same as operating an M1 Abrahms . any training simulator is going to have its setbacks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 February 2008 at 12:34am
The use of MILES rewards (by allowing survival) the use of cover (actually concealment) that wouldn't stop real rounds.  People who get used to this develop tactical movement habits that work in exercises but could get them killed in a real engagement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GI JOES SON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 February 2008 at 12:44am
yeah, i understand what you mean. like i said, no one training method will give you the best training. I'm a personal fan of MOUT training with detergent rounds...its a standard shell with gun powder in it and instead of a lead round, its a tiny pellet filled with laundry detergent. no idea why that was picked, maybe consistency. either way, it leaves welts like you wouldn't believe, although it allows use of the actual weapons like miles does. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 February 2008 at 9:06pm
Originally posted by GI JOES SON GI JOES SON wrote:

. . . its a tiny pellet filled with laundry detergent. . . . it leaves welts like you wouldn't believe . . .


Are you referring to simunitions?

If so, I definitely do believe in the welts it can leave.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evil Elvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 February 2008 at 2:17pm
So back on Topic.

My Alpha Black arrived today and I quickly assembled it and man it feels solid. Only complaint so far was the gold made in China Sticker on the grip but that was quickly removed.

The Stock is real easy to attach. The elbow is identical to the Model 98 Elbow. The gun cycles wonderfull. As cold as it was outside I was able to fire off a few round. the Stock barrel isnt soo bad but then again I am not in Optimum temperatures to test with C02.

The Stock is very secure which was my main concern. I have since then replaced the Plastic Tube for an old AirrTipps tube with a built in RVA. So now it's practical and tactical.

I'll take some Eye Candy pictures tonight.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Evil Elvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 February 2008 at 4:11pm
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