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Can Tippmanns Still use Siphon tanks?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HP_Lovecraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Can Tippmanns Still use Siphon tanks?
    Posted: 22 November 2007 at 10:00am
The last time I called a Tippmann tech was 5 years ago, and he told me that all Tippmann guns (except the E-Bolt) was tested with siphon tanks, and all work exceptionally well.

You get performance BETTER then HPA when using a siphon co2 tank. All Tippmanns came with siphon tanks in the early/mid 90s.

Has anything changed? I talked to a Tippmann rep at a local event, and he didn't even know what a siphon tank was??

Now that winter is coming, I simply do not understand the focus on hpa, regs, lp kits, etc, when you could skip all that nonsense with a simple siphon tank.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sinisterNorth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 November 2007 at 10:08am
Tippmanns will run off of regular or anti-siphoned tanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brainless Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 November 2007 at 11:10am
Are you sure?

http://www.docsmachine.com/tech/liquid.html



Edited by Brainless - 22 November 2007 at 1:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carl_the_sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 November 2007 at 11:11am
Anti-siphon will not get rid of the problem, just help it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheWarHam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 November 2007 at 2:31pm
Im pretty sure he's talking about SIPHON tanks, not ANTI-siphon tanks, big difference. Siphon is where you suck liquid co2 strait into the gun to I think prevent velocity spikes and enable play in colder temperatures.

From what I know, Im pretty sure as long as you a non-electronic stock tippmann gun you can use siphon. As for egrips, regs, etc etc, I really dont know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snake6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 November 2007 at 3:15pm
Yes, Tippmann's can use Siphon tanks.
Are they more effective than HPA at maintaining consistency? NO
Are they more effective than a good reg setup? NO
Are they better than Anti-Siphon? Not really
Are they better than doing nothing? I guess

Paintball tech has come a long way in five years, and there are so many better options than Siphon tanks today.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HP_Lovecraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 November 2007 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by Snake6 Snake6 wrote:

Yes, Tippmann's can use Siphon tanks.


Wow, 8000 posts yet you clearly have NO IDEA what you are talking about. Makes me wonder why you bothered to post at all.

Quote Are they more effective than HPA at maintaining consistency? NO


Wrong.

Quote Are they more effective than a good reg setup? NO


Wrong

Quote Are they better than Anti-Siphon? Not really


Very Wrong

Quote Are they better than doing nothing? I guess


I think you gave yourself away as being ignorant at this point.

The great thing about using a siphon tank is you get BETTER consistency then either an HPA tank, or a regulated anti-siphon. You also ELIMINATE all spikes, and shootdowns. All cold-weather problems are also eliminated.

It does this, not by magic, but by simple thermodynamics. Everyone knows the problems with co2. It is very temperature sensitive, as temp effects pressure. Firing the gun also changes the temp, which effects pressure.

A siphon eliminates that by 2 VERY IMPORTANT things:
1- Liquid flashes to gas in the barrel, and not the tank, so the tank never gets cold.
2- Valve meters dense liquid, and not pressure, so a very precise amount of liquid enters the breech. This makes the FPS extremely consistent, regardless of temperature.

Quote Paintball tech has come a long way in five years, and there are so many better options than Siphon tanks today.


Again, very false.
The Tippmann Tech told me they stopped selling siphon tanks for this reason:
It removes them from liability problems associated with owners mixing up siphon, and non-siphon tanks. (a very expensive problem for certain guns).

How has technology "advanced"? A Siphon-Co2 still gives you the fastest recharge rate in paintball. All my guns still run on siphon tanks.

nick

Edited by HP_Lovecraft - 22 November 2007 at 4:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SSOK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 November 2007 at 4:43pm

Bring on the flame war.

I dont feel like argueing with you at all, but If what you say is true, why does my 98 get horrible concistancy in 30 degree weather, and my RT not work?

But when I use HPA everything works?

And also, if regs are nothing compared to a $30 tank, why are high end electronic and mechanical markers shipped with regulators?

Edit: Tippmanns still use CVX valves. The A5/X7 valves are slightly more consistant, but still have the same basic principle.



Edited by SSOK - 22 November 2007 at 4:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HP_Lovecraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 November 2007 at 9:45pm
Originally posted by SSOK SSOK wrote:


And also, if regs are nothing compared to a $30 tank, why are high end electronic and mechanical markers shipped with regulators?



The TPI tech was very clear about the issue when I asked him years ago.

Liability.

Towards the late 90s, many guns came to the market that would receive very expensive damage if accidentally used with a siphon tank, in which TPI was the primary distributor for siphons.
So they stopped selling them, though still recommended them.

There is also a secondary issue-

Profit margin.

Retailers make all there profits on accessories, while selling the guns themselves for close to cost. The idea is to "get them in the door". With a $15 siphon, you eliminate all the profit from expensive regulators, expansion chambers, LPCs, remotes, lp systems, and hpa tanks.

This sounds crazy, but it is well known in the industry that companies like NPS PURPOSELY put caps on electro-blowbacks to encourage owners to eventually upgrade to higher priced guns, even though the only difference is in the software.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snake6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 November 2007 at 9:57pm
You are so ignorant, I am not even going to humor you by proving you wrong. I'll leave that to someone else.

Mr. Knowitall, if you already had the answer you were going to go with (as wrong as it is) in your head then why did you ask the question?


Edited by Snake6 - 22 November 2007 at 9:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skillet42565 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 November 2007 at 10:22pm
CO2 = liquid.

Liquid = not as stable as gas.

Therefore, CO2 = not stable.

HPA is the gas of choice for a reason, its stable, cheap and reliable.  You must certainly be a troll, being this big of a prick after seeking out our help.  Especially those of us apparently more knowledegable.  Having played the tournament scene for years, I can tell you, you are wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snake6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 November 2007 at 10:52pm
Obvious Troll is obvious.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheWarHam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2007 at 12:48am
First, I'm quite intrigued by the fact that you pounced when you noticed that something someone else said to help you was wrong (in your eyes).

Now to what Im concerned about, it seems its been proven with science which is more stable, but whats with this mega-scam you speak of?
You know and we all know how evil companies can be, including the paintball ones, but they aren't just blindly vindictive and stupid. If siphoned co2 works way better than HPA, and companies just wanted you to pay more on hundreds of dollars worth of useless crap, Im pretty sure 1, 2, maybe even 3 whole people may have noticed that this whole HPA and regs thing just ain't as good in the process, but hey, thats just me.
If you think its so then fine, I just wanted to point that one out.






Edited by TheWarHam - 23 November 2007 at 12:50am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HP_Lovecraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2007 at 8:27am
Originally posted by Skillet42565 Skillet42565 wrote:

CO2 = liquid.Liquid = not as stable as gas.Therefore, CO2 = not stable.HPA is the gas of choice for a reason, its stable, cheap and reliable.


Very wrong.

Liquid is much more dense then gas, and it doesnt not take a genius to realize the density of a liquid is MUCH less effected by temp then a gas. It is thermodynamics 101.

By running a liquid system, firing the gun delivers a VERY SPECIFIC amount of liquid into the breech. This amount is not determined by pressure or temp. The ball is then propelled by the flash rate of liquid co2, which again, is fixed and not relative to temperature.

This makes the system extremely consistent. Plus, as the liquid flashes in the barrel, and not the tank, you would never get shootdown, or spikes, regardless of how fast you fire.

Quote You must certainly be a troll, being this big of a prick after seeking out our help. Especially those of us apparently more knowledegable.


I do apologize for my tone, but I have a kneejerk reaction to ignorance. I'm sure many here have the same reaction when someone says "Tippmanns suck, and are only for newbs", or "Flatlines do not give extra range". Both clearly are false, but how to talk to someone who does not know what they are talking about?

Quote Having played the tournament scene for years, I can tell you, you are wrong.


I've been playing in tournaments since the late 80s. Many pro teams used siphoned blowbacks in the early 90s (like Aftershock, Terminators, Tour De Force, etc).

The change to HPA had everything to do with a move towards Automags, and Autocockers, which could not run a siphon. In fact, they ran poorly with CO2 when compared to a siphoned Tippmann. Yes, for those guns, HPA is the best system.

People started to associate CO2 with newbs, and blowbacks, and received a stigma that never left. So it amuses me that kids with blowbacks often get a $200 HPA system, more to improve status, then actual performance.

Come to the next EMR Castle game, and I'll show the "lost technology".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brainless Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2007 at 10:40am
Hey, don't leave HP, I have a question...

How many shots do you get out of a siphon tank?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skillet42565 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2007 at 11:16am
Liquid is denser than gas, I'm aware... but not clearly as dense as your skull.

Air has apparently come a long way since the 90s, with new technology and regulators to keep it from being a problem like the early days.

I can almost guarantee if we were to put your gun over the chrono against my 06 Evil Minion, the minion gets + or - 2 or 3 fps fluctuation.  My Tippmanns have NEVER got that kind of consistency, EVER.

How can you even think that liquid turning into a gas violently is more stable than something that is already a gas.  Constancy = more consistent than violent change.

Also, isn't the gun in that flash animation an Automag?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brainless Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2007 at 12:01pm
It kinda looks like an Automag but it's a Mega-Z.




Edited by Brainless - 23 November 2007 at 12:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoboCop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2007 at 12:09pm

With HPA and a good reg, some guns can shoot with no fluctuation in fps. CO2 will expand at different rates depending on the weather. Also, sucking in pure liquid co2 will give you very bad efficiency compared to HPA.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brainless Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2007 at 12:32pm
It doesn't matter to him what you guys say. The topic creator wants things back to the way they were, when paintball markers were designed to run on liquid CO2. Nowadays these guns aren't optimized for liquid CO2, because people associate liquid CO2 = bad. The topic creator probably has some siphon tanks laying around and is wondering what to do with them.

You guys telling him to make the switch to HPA because it is more popular would aggravate me, too, if all I had were siphon tanks and liquid CO2-powered paintball guns.

I've been to a few forums where posters have said, "Oh man, I had (such-and-such) a gun that shot with liquid CO2 back in the day. The thing was more consistent blah blah blah moreso than today's CO2 guns. The thing was sooooo cold blah blah blah." These people are just nostalgic ok and are curious if there's anything left for them.

Too bad switching between different gas systems cost so much money.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kurieitaa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2007 at 1:11pm

Originally posted by Skillet42565 Skillet42565 wrote:

Liquid is denser than gas, I'm aware... but not clearly as dense as your skull.

I lol'd.

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