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Can Tippmanns Still use Siphon tanks?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HP_Lovecraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2007 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by Brainless Brainless wrote:

You guys telling him to make the switch to HPA because it is more popular would aggravate me, too, if all I had were siphon tanks and liquid CO2-powered paintball guns.


My original post was very specific: Can Tippmann still run siphon tanks? It was a "troll free" question.

It was a legitimate question since all the Tippmann guns in the 90s were tuned for liquid, not gas. My assumption is that Tippmanns are still CVX-based, which would imply that they could. I was hoping for an educated, technical answer.

This was followed by some posts from people who confused my question with anti-siphon tanks. Then posts from people who have not actually used siphon tanks, but were full of opinions.

You have it correct: The stigma of co2 clouds peoples opinions. It is clear from the posts above that most, if not all members here are not aware that all the money spend on "fixing" the co2 problem could have been avoided with a $10 siphon upgrade.

For me, I've mainly used guns tuned for liquid for the last 17 years, including Tippmanns. I've been interested in picking up some of the newer Tippmanns, and wanted to know if they were still built well enough to run liquid.

I hoped for an educated answer, and did not get one.



The purple gun gets 1200 from a 20oz, which is tuned. I usually get 800 from untuned Tippmanns. Not the best effeciency, but it is worth all the benefits.

nick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeTrevni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2007 at 7:56pm

Jesus H Christ.

Look, HP, your reaction was horrible. Knee jerk or not, this is a forum. I've seen your posts on MCB, you're not an idiot. I acknowledge you are probably more educated in older markers than most members here, but you've got all the time in the world to make your post less arseholeish.

Snake, you're getting just as bad in the useless, groundless flames as everyone else, FAR worse recently than I remember you being. Give the ego a rest, and I don't mean your gun.

Skillet, I'd like to say you're above this, but I'm not sure at this point.

Everyone else, please read the original post and stick to the questions asked. If you've got a disagreement, post it, by all means, but there is absolutely NO reason to resort to name-calling. And guess what, by insulting a person you've never met, you present the position that they are wrong, and you are right. This position is a LOT more convincing if you support your arguement with facts than it is by calling someone a "doody head."

Man. This is ridiculous...



Edited by DeTrevni - 23 November 2007 at 7:57pm
Evil Elvis: "Detrevni is definally like a hillbilly hippy from hell"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skillet42565 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2007 at 9:31pm
BUT HE STARTED IT!!!

Also, I'm clearly not above it.  I'm a thilly little boy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HP_Lovecraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2007 at 11:23pm
And I've been playing for 20+ years. I've earned the right to be an arrogant jerk.

I no longer have the patience required to explain things using my best manners, nor will I any time soon.

I asked a very simple, and straightforward question, for which I did not receive anything resembling an answer. Instead, I received condescending remarks from people who had little understanding of the topic.

Ignorance is frustrating. But I'll never be a teacher.
Anyway, the last Tippmann I tried with a siphon was a Pro/Carb. It ran great, with ultra consistency, and no shootdown or spikes.

Again, the question was would I expect to get all the same benefits from a 98/A5? or did Tippmann cut corners on the recent guns, and not make the orings strong enough? Another is valve volume. If the valve is too large, the effeciency drops, though it is still otherwise runable.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote +DreX+ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2007 at 4:53pm
I read in the paper about a month or two ago that the valve failed on a a home made anti-siphon tank where the tank reg broke; flew off and hit a woman who was watching her son play in the head.
Aparantly the tank managed to break at the regulator because the idiot who made the modification did not loctite the regulator correctly.
The woman died when the tank hit her head.

Just thought i'd point out a bit on that issue.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HP_Lovecraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2007 at 5:15pm
Originally posted by +DreX+ +DreX+ wrote:

Aparantly the tank managed to break at the regulator because the idiot who made the modification did not loctite the regulator correctly.


You have it opposite.
The women died BECAUSE the valve was threadlocked.

You should NEVER threadlock a valve because it clogs the release-vent. Every modern valve has a hole drilled into the threads that will safely vent the pressure if accidentally unscrewed.

All tank manafacturers say NEVER to use threadlock, and instead to torque the valve to manafacturer specs (around 40-50lbs) "dry".

But many people have discovered that its easier to just slop on some threadlock instead of proper tightening, and people have died as a result.

No flame war intended here. Just never threadlock the valve. Ever.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote +DreX+ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2007 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by HP_Lovecraft HP_Lovecraft wrote:

Originally posted by +DreX+ +DreX+ wrote:

Aparantly the tank managed to break at the regulator because the idiot who made the modification did not loctite the regulator correctly.

No flame war intended here. Just never threadlock the valve. Ever.


See once I enter a thread something important/useful comes out!
Please disregard the part where I'm wrong :D
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2007 at 6:40pm
Nick,

The .68Carbine CVX and the M-98+ CVX are slightly different valves. The .68 Carbine CVX valve didn't use a plastic power-tube and sleeve to channel the CO2 through the grooves in the valve and to the power-tube up front, it used the interior wall of the upper receiver to do so. With the introduction of the stamped-body M-98, this was no-longer an option as the tolerance was not exact in the casting/stamping process and there would be a lot of blow-by around the valve-body itself due to imperfections in the molding of the receiver halves. Thus, the valve was placed in an extended power-tube that acted as a hard-seal for the o-rings to seat against and channel the flow of the CO2/HPA to the actual power-tube which directs the air to the bolt and breech. The original M-98's used machined aluminum power-tubes to allow for the use of siphon tanks which were still somewhat common at that point. However, the advent of the "cheap" mechanical market (kingmans, BE markers, etc) that used hard plastic cup-seals that didn't do well with siphoned CO2 at the time meant that more non-siphon CO2 setups were on the market and Tippmann found the need of a siphon-friendly marker to be less and less as the M-98 went through it's upgrade phases. It was about full year after the introduction of the M-98 that the we started seeing plastic power-tubes and valve housings showing up in the '98's that we sold at the pro-shop. These were the last of the "gilled" M-98's right before tippmann switched to producing the M-98 "Custom" which also incorporated new receiver halves (minus the "gills" at the breech) with punch-plates to aid the home-airsmith in the application of "bolt-on" upgrades like the RT, E-Grip, and E-Bolt.

Long story short, on sleeved-valve new Tippmann markers you can run siphoned CO2. However, you need to use an aluminum power-tube to ensure that the liquid CO2 doesn't crack the power-tube like it can with the plastic tubes.

Oh, and as for the thread-locking of gas-cylinders, you can threadlock them and there are indeed many manufacturers who do threadlock the valves in place. They use the locking adhesive towards the top of the valve when it is almost fully in place however, so it doesn't interfere with the safety blow-off located about 1/2 of the distance down the neck of the valve body.

Edit: Not making an argument pro-threadlock, just stating that there are several manufacturers that add it at the end as a failsafe. No end-user should ever attempt to threadlock a valve/reg into a bottle.

Edited by tallen702 - 24 November 2007 at 6:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote +DreX+ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2007 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

No end-user should ever attempt to threadlock a valve/reg into a bottle.

I think thats how the woman died.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2007 at 8:12pm
I know that the suit was brought against National as that is who the tank was officially purchased through, however, it is unclear to me, even from the formal judgment, as to whether NPS (now Kee Sports) actually threadlocked the valve into the cannister, or if they were found guilty through lack of plausible deniability on their part.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hybrid-sniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2007 at 9:42pm

How'd I miss this thread? All the manly chest-thumping and loud grunts should have alerted me long ago.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HP_Lovecraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2007 at 10:37pm
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:


Long story short, on sleeved-valve new Tippmann markers you can run siphoned CO2. However, you need to use an aluminum power-tube to ensure that the liquid CO2 doesn't crack the power-tube like it can with the plastic tubes.


This is exactly what I wanted to know. Thanks!
So a "pre-custom" M98 is likely to have the aluminium power tube? Does "gills" automatically mean "aluminium power tube"?

The change is curious, but is well explained by your post.

Quote You can threadlock them and there are indeed many manufacturers who do threadlock the valves in place.


I meant that TANK manafacturers are strickly against threadlocking, like Catalina. But valve manafacturers threadlock anyway.

NPS was sued, and lost because it was discovered that they were using threadlock without the slightest effort towards quality-control, and safety checks. NPS thought that using threadlock meant they didn't need to ensure that the valves were placed on tight.

In fact, most were simply covered in threadlock, then HAND-TIGHTENED. That is unacceptable, and the reason they lost the lawsuit.

Yes, a small amount of threadlock, correctly applied, is a good thing to help ensure the valve is not accidentally removed. But totally unneeded if the valve is simply screwed on to proper torque specs.

Ironically, after the lawsuit, the industry still has not followed tank recommendations, and instead now have large vertical grooves on valves, instead of holes. The grooves to not get clogged by threadlock, but also look very structurally unsafe.

nick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2007 at 12:07am
Gills don't necessarily automatically guarantee an aluminum power-tube as people may have sent markers to the "Tippmann Pro-Shop" to have modifications made to them. This was necessary with the M-98 (I'll use the M-98 name to refer to "gilled" 98's from here on out) series as they required cutting and milling to accept items such as the R/T trigger piston and bleed-off, the E-Grip and the E-Bolt kits. Only the Low Pressure Kit (LPK) and Vertical Adapter didn't require some form of receiver modification to work properly. At the end of the M-98 run, we also started seeing plastic power-tubes show up in the markers. This was probably about the same time that Tippmann started their "98 Custom" run and put the newer parts in the old bodies just to save on purchasing. Now, should you have a newer model and want to run it on a siphon tank, you can buy an aluminum power-tube. I believe Rufus Dawg and JCS both make aluminum power-tubes for the 98C series. They would be backwards compatible with all earlier models as well. I just secured Netsurfer Dude 2's M-98 that he had up for sale over on MCB, I may try to run it on a siphon tank until I make the switch to an e-bolt setup just for the fun of it. I've been meaning to pick a siphon kit up to run an older pro-lite or pro-am off of once the spring kicks in I'm also looking at a modified SL 68-II that would work well with it I'm sure.

On the topic of tanks and valves/regs, I don't know if you saw it, but Shocktech has a handy little tool to help with properly removing and re-attaching regs on HPA bottles for the tournament travelers who go through the trouble of air-travel a lot. While it doesn't have a torque readout, it certainly beats the old vise-grips with the bottle between your legs method that so many people used for years.

As it is, I'm looking for a nice portable padded pipe-vise to hold the tank in. It's getting expensive to ship that sucker to my hotel every time I travel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HP_Lovecraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2007 at 7:15am
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

I may try to run it on a siphon tank until I make the switch to an e-bolt setup just for the fun of it.


I put an E-Grip on my black Mega-Z, and ran in on a siphon. It is like a SNOW MACHINE! At the spring castle, people were backing away from me, as they thought my gun was going to explode.

Obviously, won't work with the E-Bolt, but I'd bet a M-98, rigged with an E-Grip might really kick some ass.

Quote I'm also looking at a modified SL 68-II that would work well with it I'm sure.


For the sake of full disclosure, siphons do not work as well on pumps. Siphons like your gun to be cold. Fortunetly, as liquid co2 is cryogenic, it keeps the gun cold naturally as you fire.
But with pumps, you simply do not fire enough to keep the gun cold, and the first couple of shots might have low FPS if you have not fired for a while.

This complicated chrono measurements, which could be a safety issue.

So ultimetly, it doesnt matter which '98 I get, since they make the aftermarket tubes regardless. That is good news then. Kinda looking for some modern blowbacks, but I keep hearing that they have cut so many corners, then they don't work as well as the older ones.

nick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2007 at 9:19am
I don't think it's an issue of cutting corners, rather just making things more accessible to new players. If you look at the new batch of low-cost markers out there, it shows that even the big-dogs of high-end are finally wising up to the fact that there's a huge budget-friendly market out there that they haven't tapped yet.

It used to be that if you played paintball, you either used 12g's and 10rnd tubes unless you had the unholy luck to live near a pro-shop or field. Then you could get equipment that wasn't as readily available to the common player as you had people there who could get and install a thermo tank for CA play, or properly install a siphon/anti-siphon setup. Eventually companies realized that if they wanted to gain a wider customer base, they had to simplify things. Tippmann really achieved this with the drop-in/bolt-on upgrades that are the hallmark of the 98Custom, A-5, and X-7. No experience needed, just a screwdriver, a box wrench, and the ability to read and comprehend basic instructions. With that simplification process came the ability to lessen costs, but still make a rock-solid marker. You can still take any modern tippmann marker and slog it through the worst weather and terrain possible, not clean it properly, throw it in a foot locker for a year, take it out, kick the hammer back, and it will still fire. There's a reason they're still the number one rental market in the world. Especially the 98-series.

Anywho, all praise aside, the 98's a great marker to fool around with as far as modern mainstream markers go. There's an endless supply of upgrades and parts, and they're going cheap enough that if you screw something up, it's $50 for a whole "new" marker for you to either grab parts from, or start over with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brainless Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2007 at 9:35am
OMG ask Tippmann for the aluminum powertube for your specific gun (probably 98 Custom and newer since they still sell those) and you'll be all set then, maybe.  Assuming that is something you'd want for one of your Tippmann guns.

Give it a shot, I don't think it'll cost you anything, or maybe it'll only cost you a few bucks. Tippmann is usually good about giving small pieces (fittings etc.) that you need for specific setups in the mail. But since a powertube is a bigger piece it might have to be paid for ?

Edited by Brainless - 25 November 2007 at 9:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ilford Rule Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2007 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

...On the topic of tanks and valves/regs, I don't know if you saw it, but Shocktech has a handy little tool to help with properly removing and re-attaching regs on HPA bottles for the tournament travelers who go through the trouble of air-travel a lot...


Uh-oh... it looks like I've been doing something horribly wrong.
I've had to remove the reg in the past, and all I did was unscrew it (it came off fairly easily), then screw it back on after as tightly as I could without tools. It has the groove down the side in the even that it comes off, but have I been doing something wrong this whole time? Or are you referring to the HPA tanks where the regs are on much, much tighter (I know my brothers steely is like that)?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tallen702 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2007 at 8:23pm
The reg should seat into the bottle so that hand-removal isn't possible without tools. Grab yourself a cheap-o torque wrench and contact the tank manufacturer and ask them what the (dry) torque to properly seat the reg is. This will ensure that the bottle doesn't inadvertently come un-screwed while under pressure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SSOK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 November 2007 at 8:27pm

Originally posted by HP_Lovecraft HP_Lovecraft wrote:

Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:


Long story short, on sleeved-valve new Tippmann markers you can run siphoned CO2. However, you need to use an aluminum power-tube to ensure that the liquid CO2 doesn't crack the power-tube like it can with the plastic tubes.


This is exactly what I wanted to know. Thanks!
So a "pre-custom" M98 is likely to have the aluminium power tube? Does "gills" automatically mean "aluminium power tube"?

The change is curious, but is well explained by your post.

Quote You can threadlock them and there are indeed many manufacturers who do threadlock the valves in place.


I meant that TANK manafacturers are strickly against threadlocking, like Catalina. But valve manafacturers threadlock anyway.

NPS was sued, and lost because it was discovered that they were using threadlock without the slightest effort towards quality-control, and safety checks. NPS thought that using threadlock meant they didn't need to ensure that the valves were placed on tight.

In fact, most were simply covered in threadlock, then HAND-TIGHTENED. That is unacceptable, and the reason they lost the lawsuit.

Yes, a small amount of threadlock, correctly applied, is a good thing to help ensure the valve is not accidentally removed. But totally unneeded if the valve is simply screwed on to proper torque specs.

Ironically, after the lawsuit, the industry still has not followed tank recommendations, and instead now have large vertical grooves on valves, instead of holes. The grooves to not get clogged by threadlock, but also look very structurally unsafe.

nick

If you want an aluminum powertube, you can easily buy upgraded ones from JCS or Rufus dawg, which also come in eye-appealing colors.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HP_Lovecraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2007 at 11:48am
Originally posted by tallen702 tallen702 wrote:

I don't think it's an issue of cutting corners, rather just making things more accessible to new players.


That was a poor choice of words on my part. I'm sure from Tippmanns perspective is it was simply an expense that is no longer needed or utilized.

I worked at Adventure Games in NH for much of the 90s. As expected, many players had problems during the cold months with there blowbacks. Spyders (and variants) especially.

We would rent them a siphon, and usually it work fantastic. Sometimes though, you would get very strange results.

Like, if the bumper is a bit worn, or missing, the gun might go cyclic because it is moving TO FAST for the sear to catch. The purpose of the bumper is to slow the hammer down to managable speeds. (They cycle around 20-25ms)
Poor quality orings would swell, crack, and lead to leaks. Large EC/LPC/etc would cause chrono issues, etc.
And some simply would not go below 350fps no matter what you did.

Earlier in the 90s, this was never a problem, but towards the end of the 90s, it was getting more and more common though. I've got to the point where I no longer recommend it for any STBB, but still did for Tippmanns until I learned about the plastic power tube.

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